Author Topic: Good ol' home oven  (Read 10521 times)

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Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2008, 11:04:22 PM »
I wonder, given your obviously extensive back ground in both fields, which system is easier to work with? The Imperial or Metric?

The hands down winner in science is SI (or metric if you're old school).  Modern science would not have advanced as much as it has without the SI system.  In a situation where a physicist has to unify several theories, or apply thermodynamics or electrodynamics to mechanics, it's a bloody nightmare to accomplish those tasks in anything but SI units.  Almost all modern physical equations are most elegantly expressed in SI units.  To even attempt conversion before calculation would mean certain aneurism.

In engineering, it's a mixed bag.  It's not as clear a winner in engineering, but I think SI is still easier in any case.  Many will still argue that the number of factors for 12 make it an ideal base for a unit of measure.  I'll agree that having 2, 3, 4, and 6 as possible whole divisors is convenient, but so is moving the decimal place in base 10.

- red.november


Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2008, 11:40:38 PM »
RN,

Thanks for the insight. I'm biased, obviously, so I can't really say that the SI/Metric system is the better choice until I have fully understood the Imperial system, which will probably take a little more time.

But it was very interesting to read your input. 
Mike

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Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2008, 11:59:24 PM »
until I have fully understood the Imperial system, which will probably take a little more time.

At this stage, I wouldn't bother to spend more time on it.  Save those neurons for learning something else.  My childhood education might have kept be biased in favor of customary units (U.S. version of Imperial), but my involvement in science flipped everything around.  I used to participate in discussions with numerous science professionals concerning the merits of each system, the minutia of which would make your head spin, but the bottom line is that all but a couple of countries standardize on the SI system.  If you want to ensure accuracy across continents, or even across agencies, you better use the system everyone else is using.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2008, 12:33:43 AM »
RN,

I remember Great Britain switching over to the Metric system and my fiance at that time was English and it was a big deal. Today it doesn't seem to be any longer.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline pcampbell

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2008, 02:38:30 PM »
Essen I have been messing around with some different things with the broiler also.

Today I put the stone up high, 1 slot below the top slot (top slot would probably have me burning my hand) pre-heated stone using regular bake burner, then once I put the pizza in, I turned on the broiler element.  It worked really quite well.  When the top got just about perfect I turned the broiler off and then waited for the bottom to be done, another minute.  Maybe 5 minutes total.  I think another idea would be putting the stone very low, pre-heating, cooking it there for maybe 3 minutes, then moving the entire pizza onto a wire rack with the broiler on.

Are you putting the pie on the wire rack up near the broiler or just holding it up there with the peel or???
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 02:42:28 PM by pcampbell »
Patrick

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2008, 02:54:59 PM »
PC,

The way I did it was I pre-heated the stone at 500° for about an hour on the lowest rack, maybe 3" above the heating element.  The stone usually tops out around 535° - 540°. I bake the pizza in that setting for about 5 or 6 mins and then move the entire rack, incl. stone and pie, directly under the broiler and keep a watchful eye on it as to not burn the crust and toppings. A little charring is okay but it shouldn't be burned.

On a side note, I use cubed low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella but only a small amount during the first stage of baking and right before moving it under the broiler I throw on a few more cubes. And that's pretty much it.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2008, 03:06:18 PM »
Patrick,

A similar method to the one you used is described by member pwaldman (Pete) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6585.msg56478/topicseen.html#msg56478.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2008, 09:39:56 PM »
Patrick,

A similar method to the one you used is described by member pwaldman (Pete) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6585.msg56478/topicseen.html#msg56478.

Peter

Peter & Patrick,

That's very similar to how I use the home oven in terms of pre-heating the stone. It does yield good results. Now, if we'd had a silicon carbide stone like RN does, we'd be set.  ;D

It would be a nice alternative for me if I don't feel like firing up the LBE.
Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2008, 09:52:25 PM »
It would be a nice alternative for me if I don't feel like firing up the LBE.

Mike,

If you ever need an alternative to the LBE ...

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2008, 03:12:06 PM »
Jesus Christ!

Looks pretty cool but I don't have the space for it. Unfortunately.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2008, 07:47:54 PM »
November, I looked at the silicon carbide stones at Baileys Ceramic Supply from the link you provided. There is another stone there called a Nitrite Bonded silicon carbide. It is much cheaper but it does have a few different characteristics. From the site...
The nitride bonded silicon carbide shelves are slightly heavier than Advancer® shelves, but much lighter than High Alumina. Note: Advancer® is still the lightest and strongest composition shelf available and a much higher quality, rated for Cone 16. Nitride Bonded is rated for Cone 11 and may need rotation at some point based on extreme peak temperature, soak time, and amount of weight placed between the posts....

Do you think this will be an acceptable product for baking pizzas, or will the thermal characteristics be so sub par that it will not be a good investment?

They do mention that electric kilns do have a tendency to crack these shelves, but I imagine that the lower temperatures of a home oven would not be an issue, unless it is proximity to hot elements that is the culprit. Then it is possible that a home oven could do the same thing if the slab is put too close to a hot element.

Also note that silicon carbide is a conductor of electricity so do not let it come into contact with a live element.

Also note..."Want a great deal on shelves?
 Sometimes we have "seconds" in various kiln shelves at great prices!  Save up to 40%!
Call for details and availability."

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2008, 10:43:00 PM »
November, I looked at the silicon carbide stones at Baileys Ceramic Supply from the link you provided. There is another stone there called a Nitrite Bonded silicon carbide. It is much cheaper but it does have a few different characteristics. From the site...
The nitride bonded silicon carbide shelves are slightly heavier than Advancer® shelves, but much lighter than High Alumina. Note: Advancer® is still the lightest and strongest composition shelf available and a much higher quality, rated for Cone 16. Nitride Bonded is rated for Cone 11 and may need rotation at some point based on extreme peak temperature, soak time, and amount of weight placed between the posts....

Do you think this will be an acceptable product for baking pizzas, or will the thermal characteristics be so sub par that it will not be a good investment?

The most recent link was to seattlepotterysupply.com for a nitride bonded SiC shelf, the very shelf I have.  The nitride bonded SiC shelves at Bailey's are all the wrong size for me.  24" is too wide, 18" is too deep, and 0.5" is too thin, so I would end up having to buy two 16" x 18" x 0.375" shelves which isn't any cheaper.  I would not recommend Advancer shelves over the kind I purchased.

Also note that silicon carbide is a conductor of electricity so do not let it come into contact with a live element.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7066.msg60775.html#msg60775

- red.november

EDIT: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7066.msg61313.html#msg61313
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:09:51 PM by November »

Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2008, 04:12:15 AM »
Quote
The most recent link was to seattlepotterysupply.com for a nitride bonded SiC shelf, the very shelf I have.  The nitride bonded SiC shelves at Bailey's are all the wrong size for me.  24" is too wide, 18" is too deep, and 0.5" is too thin, so I would end up having to buy two 16" x 18" x 0.375" shelves which isn't any cheaper.  I would not recommend Advancer shelves over the kind I purchased.

That's good information, thank you. I suppose the only way Baileys would be a good choice is if you got a 40% discount on two or three 16 x 18 0.375" seconds. For a little more money you could buy a third and either use it or store it and if the other two crack you would have another spare( with two thinner ones you could still use a cracked one on the bottom).

Obviously you have not had a problem with moisture in the SiC causing cracking, so I imagine even the thinner ones would not be a problem either(a supposition yet to be proven).

Its nice to know that the relative conductivity is in all but the most extreme conditions less than harmful.

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2008, 10:55:00 AM »
That's good information, thank you. I suppose the only way Baileys would be a good choice is if you got a 40% discount on two or three 16 x 18 0.375" seconds. For a little more money you could buy a third and either use it or store it and if the other two crack you would have another spare( with two thinner ones you could still use a cracked one on the bottom).

A 40% discount wouldn't be enough for me.  I wouldn't want to deal with moving more fragile (relative to thicker) shelves around.  Two thinner shelves will work for the purpose of attaining a high total heat capacity.  However, the main reason for getting thicker shelves is to mitigate mechanical and thermal stresses.

Obviously you have not had a problem with moisture in the SiC causing cracking, so I imagine even the thinner ones would not be a problem either(a supposition yet to be proven).

I'm not sure why you arrive at that conclusion.  It doesn't logically follow that since a thicker shelf doesn't have problems with cracking that a thinner one wouldn't either.  Thinner shelves would be more susceptible to cracking.  I do know that with a thickness of 0.625", my shelf is going to be just fine, so I would never bother with buying a spare.  I even damp-cleaned mine prior to using it in the oven for the first time.

Its nice to know that the relative conductivity is in all but the most extreme conditions less than harmful.

You mean extreme conditions as in lightning?  It's as good as non-conductive in ceramic form.  Technically, pure SiC is only a semiconductor anyway.  The silicon nitride in nitride bonded shelves is also an electrical insulator, creating even more resistance.  It's still a mystery to me why we're even talking about electrical conductivity of these shelves since just about everything you put in your oven (e.g. racks, cake pans, pie pans, muffin pans, etc.) is electrically conductive.  It would seem to me that adding one more to the list is a non-event.

- red.november

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2008, 11:53:41 AM »
It's still a mystery to me why we're even talking about electrical conductivity of these shelves since just about everything you put in your oven (e.g. racks, cake pans, pie pans, muffin pans, etc.) is electrically conductive.  It would seem to me that adding one more to the list is a non-event.

- red.november
I know that the reason I first mentioned it awhile ago was because of the RED highlighted warnings here http://www.baileypottery.com/kilnfurniture/carbidekilnshelves.htm . Your prior answers put that issue to rest, at least for me.

Thanks

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2008, 02:15:06 PM »
Quote
You mean extreme conditions as in lightning?

LOL  ;D

What are the odds that someone gets struck by lightning while baking a pizza?
Mike

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2008, 02:40:27 PM »
What are the odds that someone gets struck by lightning while baking a pizza?
Indoors or outdoors?  LOL

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2008, 03:25:12 PM »
PNW,

Indoors, of course, since we're talking about the "Good ol' home oven"  ;D
Mike

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Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2008, 03:52:37 PM »
PNW,

They might have disclaimed that because of legal reasons, and the possibility of electrical shock is not out of the question.  I think electrocution is very much out of the question though, because when I say shock, I mean 9V battery to the tongue type of shock.

(The following is academic and more for completeness than practicality.)

Just to get some kind of resistance reading I wetted the surface of my shelf and was able to find, in a highly oriented position (this is a semiconductor after all), about 6 megaohms of resistance at 5 mm, or 1.2 x 109 ohm-meters.  So end-to-end of a wet 16" shelf, that's nearly 488 megaohms of resistance.  That's 120 million times more resistivity than the top heating elements in my electric wall oven have.  (Note I haven't measured its resistive impedance specifically, because resistance works well in a general case.)

Since I was already measuring the activity of my oven-bound electron friends, I decided to measure the electrical resistance of my top heating element and calculate the power dissipation.  Hence the reference to the heating element resistivity above.  I measured the length of my top element to be about 174 cm.  The resistance at 10 cm was 1.0 ohm.  Using the equation for power (P = V2/R):

P = 2302 / 17.4
P = 3040.23 W

That result quite frankly caught me off guard, because the last time I measured the wattage of my broiler at the meter, it was exactly 3040 W.  I wasn't expecting it to be that precise in conjunction with the meter reading.  Some fun facts more than anything.

- red.november

EDIT: I forgot to add "million" after "120" for the resistivity difference.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 04:14:07 PM by November »

Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2008, 04:16:10 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure why you arrive at that conclusion.  It doesn't logically follow that since a thicker shelf doesn't have problems with cracking that a thinner one wouldn't either.  Thinner shelves would be more susceptible to cracking.  I do know that with a thickness of 0.625", my shelf is going to be just fine, so I would never bother with buying a spare.  I even damp-cleaned mine prior to using it in the oven for the first time.

I arrive at the conclusion because these are industrial shelves designed for heavy use in a factory. If they can take that kind of punishment without lots of customer complaints I assume that they can handle the task. If they are more susceptible to cracking, its not by much.


Quote
I know that the reason I first mentioned it awhile ago was because of the RED highlighted warnings here http://www.baileypottery.com/kilnfurniture/carbidekilnshelves.htm . Your prior answers put that issue to rest, at least for me.

Yea, that's the reason this newbie decided to post that as well...lol. I'll go back to my corner now...j/k.


 

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