My new favorite dough so far... using my food processor

[snowdog]

Have really been enjoying... reading lots of forum post and trying out dough recipes I have found on the forum... this one is very easy to make & works everytime & slips of the pizza slip without sticking 

Below is my favorite one so far... 

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    558.43 g  |  19.7 oz | 1.23 lbs
Water (45%):    251.29 g  |  8.86 oz | 0.55 lbs
Salt (1.5%):    8.38 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
IDY (.3%):    1.68 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Oil (8%):    44.67 g | 1.58 oz | 0.1 lbs | 9.93 tsp | 3.31 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    8.38 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.1 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Total (156.3%):   872.83 g | 30.79 oz | 1.92 lbs | TF = 0.1
Single Ball:   436.41 g | 15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs

The way I have been making this is... 

I start by adding the yeast to warm water (105%) & let stand for 8 mins (I know it's idy, but seems to work well when I do this... like ady).  Then I put my flour (Gold Medal - Better for Bread), salt, sugar in my food processor, turn it on & run for about 10 secs. 

Then I turn on the food processor and slowly add the oil, then the water/yeast & let run for about 45 secs.

Take it out knead into a ball for a few secs & put in a Tupperware container for about 5 or 6 hours (will rise to about double in size).

Makes two very tasty 14" pizzas...       

Great crust my best so far...  I have been baking at 550 on a pizza stone for about 9 mins.

[Pete-zza]

Glenn,

Can you tell me where you found your recipe, or what recipe you used to model your recipe after?

Peter

[snowdog]

Peter - to tell you the truth... I have read... so many post made on the forum in the last two weeks... like 40 hours of reading... and been making pizzas at a rate of two a day... I have confussed myself    to the point I am not even sure where I came up this this... lol

I think... it's from playing with the dough calculator & adding elements from these main too below...

Tom Lehmann & Deven K. Mercer

http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php

http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php

If anyone is brave... give it a try... I was really really happy with the results, hate to tell you how many so so pizza's I have eaten & how many things I learned not to do... so far!

Out of all the recipes... on the forum LOL what one does it look most like to you? 

[Pete-zza]

Out of all the recipes... on the forum LOL what one does it look most like to you? 

Glenn,

The recipe didn't look like anything that I could recall, which is why I asked you how you came up with your recipe. Superficially, the recipe looked most like a NY style dough with a reduced hydration level and a high level of oil to make up for the reduction in the hydration. The thickness factor you used was also most like a NY "street" style pizza. However, it normally won't take 9 minutes to bake a NY style pizza on a pizza stone at 550 degrees F. Next to a NY style recipe, the closest one that came to mind was member loowaters' early try at a Home Run Inn clone, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51517.html#msg51517, but with more yeast.

Can you describe the crust characteristics of the pizza, in terms of oven spring, texture, crumb, chewiness/crispiness, color, and taste?

Out of curiosity, which pizza was the second best and which pizza came in last place out of all of your pizzas since you joined the forum?

Peter

[November]

The numbers have it look like a Chicago style deep dish dough.

[snowdog]

I actually... started baking this crust at 450 for 12 mins & it worked well too, then I tried 9 minutes on the pizza stone at 550 degrees F & liked that even better...

I'll give it a go... describing the crust... but I may not be very good at it... I would say the crust turned out like I remember I use to get at the old Pizza Inn year ago.  The dough was what I would describe as thin-crust...more crispy than chewier... baked to a nice finish light brown, not tuff at all, I have tried Tom Lehmann's  New York Style Pizza Crust http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php  which I really liked... I think in fact except for the lower hydration this is really what I used for the base of this recipe... you started me out with one you developed at 36% hydration & I think I adjusted from there...

Would love to have someone else give this a try & let me know what you think 

As for the bad... I have over fermented many, over worked the dough to real tuffness, under hydrated to the point of not being able to roll out the dough & over hydrated to the point even with lots of flour & corn meal it just would not come off the slip... so on the bad side...  I made about 20 so far... and about 1/2 dozen pretty good ones & four real good ones from this recipe.

I plan on trying new ones too, but at least now I have one that works every time... taste great & I would serve to guest ! 

Know I still have lots of learning to do... but I am really enjoying the learning process... and have found real enjoyment in reading all the forum post ... even ones back in 2005... like Bubba Kuhn's - am I a wannabee post ...  LOL 

[snowdog]

November  - might add... I have read almost all your post... found them to be great!  I started reading all of Peter's 1st & them DKM's & Steve's...  lots of reading  so far...  lots of other forum members post too... talk about brain over load in two weeks LOL

[Pete-zza]

The numbers have it look like a Chicago style deep dish dough.

November,

I originally thought the same thing. However, apart from the fact that Glenn was baking his pizzas flat on a pizza stone and his thickness factor was a bit on the low side for a Chicago deep-dish dough, which is more like 0.11-0.13, I ruled out the Chicago deep-dish possibility because usually there is a lot more oil when the formula hydration is in the 40-50% range. Most of our members who specialize in the deep-dish style like to use a lot of oil, typically between 15-24% oil. At those levels, the hydration is typically in the roughly 40-50% range. On the low end of the oil scale, the oil tends to be at around 8%. But, the hydration in such an instance is usually quite a bit higher than 50%. That said, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there is a deep-dish dough formulation somewhere using 45% water and 8% oil. People have been playing around with the hydration and oil percents for deep-dish dough for a very long time. I might also add that many Chicago deep-dish joints use the same dough for their flat pizzas as they use for their deep-dish pizzas. That is something I had forgotten when I last posted.

I also recalled that Evelyne Slomon had posted a NY style dough recipe that apparently preceded the Lehmann NY style recipe at the American Institute of Baking. The recipe is the one posted at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29490.html#msg29490. I thought that maybe Glenn was being guided by that recipe or a similar one and used the hydration at the low end of the range and the oil at the upper end of the range. 

Peter

[November]

Peter,

Look at the hydration of the "THIN & CRACKERY PIZZA RECIPES" on this site's recipe page.  The hydration levels are 39% and 36%.  The oil content in those recipes are at 3% and 3.5%.  Loowater's deep dish has 45% hydration and more oil.  Granted, it's a lot more oil, but I view the dough snowdog has as a "healthier" deep dish dough.  The hydration is more in line with deep dish, and the oil is greater than a typical thin crust.  How he uses it does more to define the style, but as I said, the numbers look like a modified deep dish.

- red.november

EDIT: The information from Evelyne Slomon was definitely much more of a guideline than a formula.  2-10%?!  That's quite a range.

[Pete-zza]

I have tried Tom Lehmann's  New York Style Pizza Crust http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php  which I really liked... I think in fact except for the lower hydration this is really what I used for the base of this recipe... you started me out with one you developed at 36% hydration & I think I adjusted from there...

Glenn,

Toward the end of last year, another member, Jackitup (Jon), and I both tried a higher hydration version of a cracker-style dough. We both used 60%. Jon's results are posted at Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50791.html#msg50791 (see Reply 109 for the full recipe), and mine at Reply 119 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909. With our versions, we got crusts that were an unusual combination of chewy, crispy and crunchy. You went lower with your hydration and higher with your oil, which might explain the crispier crust that you got. In your case, was the crust completely flat or did it have a rim?

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

Look at the hydration of the "THIN & CRACKERY PIZZA RECIPES" on this site's recipe page.  The hydration levels are 39% and 36%.  The oil content in those recipes are at 3% and 3.5%.  Loowater's deep dish has 45% hydration and more oil.  Granted, it's a lot more oil, but I view the dough snowdog has as a "healthier" deep dish dough.  The hydration is more in line with deep dish, and the oil is greater than a typical thin crust.  How he uses it does more to define the style, but as I said, the numbers look like a modified deep dish.

- red.november

EDIT: The information from Evelyne Slomon was definitely much more of a guideline than a formula.  2-10%?!  That's quite a range.

November,

I think Glenn's dough formulation should be an interesting one to try because of all of the cross currents and hybridization. Since I have made enough examples of the three types of pizzas in question (NY, crispy/crackery and deep-dish), I think I should be able to tell which style, if any, Glenn's pizza most closely mimics based on my personal experience. Maybe it will truly be a hybrid, as were the high hydration versions of the crispy/cracker style pizzas that Jackitup and I made.

Peter

[November]

Peter,

I think if you use snowdog's dough for a thin pizza, it's going to remind you of a thin crust.  If you use it in a deep dish pizza, it's going to remind you of a deep dish crust.  Because of the low hydration and high oil, it's going to take on the form of how it's used (i.e. baked).

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

I think if you use snowdog's dough for a thin pizza, it's going to remind you of a thin crust.  If you use it in a deep dish pizza, it's going to remind you of a deep dish crust.  Because of the low hydration and high oil, it's going to take on the form of how it's used (i.e. baked).

- red.november

November,

I know exactly what you mean. If you look, for example, at the dough formulation at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51985.html#msg51985, you might think that I was making a deep-dish dough. However, it was a dough for a flat pizza--my version of a clone of a Home Run Inn pizza. In the post itself, I commented on the similarities, to wit: The pizza was very tasty, with flavor and textural characteristics reminiscent of a deep-dish pizza but in a different format. The crust was a bit crispy on the bottom, but the rest of the pizza crust was tender. There was a bit of crunch to the rim itself.

However, it will still be fun to give Glenn's recipe a try. One of the things that I will be examining closely is the effect of using a food processor with a 45 second knead. Many of our members who specialize in the deep-dish style advocate just enough mixing and kneading to bring the dough together.

Peter

[snowdog]

Well one day... I will start posting in other than "Newbie Topics"... but knowing I am still learning... seems like right place for now... category/disclaimer 

Peter - I am hand forming my crust all I can, but wanting it very thin, so I use my rolling pin right at the end to get it even thinner (have not learned to spin well yet...) so my crust does have a rim even though I don't try for one, just bakes up ... where no cheese & sauce.

red.november - am trying for thin crust... but your statement "How he uses it does more to define the style" does make since to me - some how seemed to strike a truth...   

Peter - "The pizza was very tasty, with flavor and textural characteristics reminiscent of a deep-dish pizza but in a different format. The crust was a bit crispy on the bottom, but the rest of the pizza crust was tender. There was a bit of crunch to the rim itself."   this is exactly how it is, but with more of a crispy thin crust

Also wanted to add... I let the dough rise on the counter room temp...

I like to make this up on the weekend early in the morning... have 1st pizza at lunch after a 5 to 6 hours rise & then another pizza for dinner after a 11-12 hour rise.

[Pete-zza]

Glenn,

I tend to be a traditionalist and somewhat a purist and less adventuresome than others when it comes to pizza styles. Hence, I tend not to try to combine pizza styles or have a pizza try to be too much. I am more likely to use technical or scientific principles that I learn from one style in another style where the same or similar problem pops up. When I saw your recipe, I saw pieces of several different styles in it, which made it difficult to pigeonhole into just one style. Fortunately, you didn't go overboard with ingredients. The most extreme case that I ever saw in that regard on this forum is the recipe at Replies 29 and 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56419.html#msg56419. That pizza used eleven different ingredients and reflected pieces of several pizza styles. It confused me because I had a hard time identifying it with a single style. To use a popular current term, it was like a mash-up, albeit one that the member who proposed it found satisfying. However, one should not assume that every pizza made up of a lot of ingredients in the dough will not work or be satisfying. A good example of a very good crust is the one used to make the Donatos clone pizzas described at Replies 20-24 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2711.msg27893.html#msg27893. The dough for those pizzas used nine different ingredients. However, there was logic and reason for each ingredient used and their amounts in relation to each other. To design such a dough from scratch would take a lot of skill and knowledge about pizza dough ingredients. You can't just throw a lot of ingredients into one of the dough calculating tools and be assured of getting something that will work.

I suspect that the approach you have taken to learn about pizza making will soon take you away from the newbie status. As you learn the principles involved, you will avoid a lot of the problems that new pizza makers experience and improve your batting average.

When the weather turns cooler here in Texas and I can crank up my oven and pizza stone, I will give your recipe a try.

Peter

[snowdog]

I found my base recipe.... 45% water 8% oil  told you I been reading too much... sorry   

It is a good one !  Is this thin crust pizza or am I just using it that way as November suggested...? 

http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=85

Recipe Name: Chicago, Cracker Style Pizza Crust
Submitted By:
Tom Lehmann

Flour 100.00%
Salt 1.50
Sugar(optional) 1.50
Compressed yeast 0.25
*Olive oil 8.00
Unsalted butter(optional)4.00
Water (variable)(70F) 45.00
* For economy, a blend of 2% olive oil and 6% vegetable oil can be substituted for the olive oil.
 

[snowdog]

Peter - when I used the dough calculator... does it look like I got it converted correctly?  Was my 1st attempt to come up with grams so I could use my scale for the flour & water...

Again sorry I could not remember where I got my starting point here... I did remember it was a recipe from Tom, but I forgot which one... I just remembered putting it into the dough calculator & doing my best at using it... 

It's a good recipe ... give it a try... 

[Pete-zza]

Glenn,

I found the Lehmann recipe you referenced during my search but ruled it out because it includes 4% butter. As noted below, I tried the recipe because I wanted to use the butter, which I thought might give the crust a more buttery flavor. With the combination of 8% oil and 4% butter, that increased the total fat to something under 12% when the water in butter was accounted for (it is 15.7% for salted butter and 17.9% for unsalted butter). Now that I revisit the recipe, I see that the butter is optional and that you apparently treated it as such and left it out of your recipe. The Lehmann recipe that you posted also uses very little yeast (0.0833% IDY when converted from fresh yeast). You used about 3 1/2 times that on an IDY-adjusted basis, which threw me off the scent. I was looking for an exact recipe.

You will see the results of my use of the Lehmann recipe you referenced at Reply 106 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50766.html#msg50766. I can't say that it was my favorite cracker-style crust/pizza. I had to make several assumptions when I practiced the recipe, and I also used the "dough warming" method that I have found to be so useful for cracker style doughs, so it is possible that if I prepared the dough along the lines that Tom Lehmann would, I might have come up with better results. But there is no doubt that the crust I made was a cracker-type crust. To my tastebuds, it was not a Chicago deep-dish crust in flat form.

When I try the recipe again, I will make the dough exactly as you did, including your modifications and the use of a food processor and a pizza stone.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Peter - when I used the dough calculator... does it look like I got it converted correctly?  Was my 1st attempt to come up with grams so I could use my scale for the flour & water...

Glenn,

I think I see what you did wrong. It looks like you did a roughly one-for-one swap of yeast, from 0.25% fresh (compressed) yeast to 0.30% IDY. Usually, it is recommended that one use IDY at one-third of the weight of the fresh yeast (for ADY, the recommended conversion is one-half). A handy yeast conversion table is the one at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm.

In my experience, yeast in a cracker-style dough plays a different role than in other types of doughs where the desire is to get a good rise and a lot of volume. In a cracker-style dough, which is usually rolled out (in a sheeter/roller or by hand with a rolling pin or pasta maker in a home environment), the dough is crushed and the gases of fermentation are expelled. Some people will use a lot of yeast to get more flavor in the finished crust. It is a flavor that is different from the flavors of fermentation, but favored nonetheless by some people. But there are some people who do not like a "yeasty" flavor in the crust. In such cases, the better course is usually to use a room-temperature fermented dough or a long cold fermentation. The Lehmann recipe you referenced uses a combination of both fermentation methods, along with a small amount of yeast.

Peter

[snowdog]

My modifications were on the yeast (I am sure I didn't mean to triple this on purpose - lol, but it sure rises great)... using 105% water & letting it sit for 8 mins 1st  & the fact that it's used after rising at room temp for 5 or 6 hours - don't use the frig, I did once & it was not as good...

... but taste great to me & when I use the rolling pin to roll it out, maybe increase yeast helps???   

I will try less yeast... & report back... if I like it better or less...

Give it a try... I think you will like it... maybe the increase in yeast was a key I stumbled on to 

PS - I just now read all the thread/post about HRI pizza... did make me think of this recipe...