Author Topic: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough  (Read 5524 times)

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Offline Verace

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Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« on: May 16, 2008, 11:40:25 PM »

Hey, guys.  Long time lurker - first time poster.  (Be gentle, this is my first time!)

I would appreciate any suggestions for a Neapolitan dough.  Having read through the posts on this board, I know this is a very open-ended question, so let me spell out some of the parameters.

Oven - I have a counter-top pizza oven similar to the Deni 2100.  Currently its max. temperature is 590˚ F.  It might be possible to modify the unit, as others have done to the Deni, but I was hoping to try with the oven's 590˚ F max to see if modification is really necessary.  That's because the thermostat on my unit is not as straightforward as the Deni.

Flour - I don't have access to Caputo, but I can get other flour:  Robin Hood All-Purpose Unbleached, which has a 12% protein content and a bread flour called Maple Leaf Mills Hickory with a hefty 14.6% protein.

Other - My mixer is a Kitchen-Aid and I do have an IR thermometer.

Experience - I have a fair bit of experience making bread, but my pizza forays are limited to a one-time attempt at Reinhart's Neapolitan dough from The Bread Baker's Apprentice.  That was made in a conventional oven at 550˚ F and the result was ho-hum.

I've looked at the dough formulations in this group and reading them was both fascinating and overwhelming.  Given the restrictions above, any suggestions for a starting point formulation would be appreciated.  Many thanks in advance!


Verace.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 09:18:27 AM »
Verace,

If you don't have 00 flour, it will be difficult to simulate it using just all-purpose flour or bread flour. I, too, tried the Reinhart Neapolitan dough recipe and thought that it was inadequate (see my comments at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,224.msg4602.html#msg4602). What you might want to try is a combination of either all-purpose flour or bread flour (I assume that your "bread" flour is not whole-wheat flour) and either cake flour or pastry flour. An example of what I have in mind is given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1278.msg11466/topicseen.html#msg11466 (Reply 1). With that recipe, there should be no need to knead the dough for 20 minutes. That knead time was apparently (erroneously) based on a knead time that was recommended for 00 flours. Even for 00 flour, 20 minutes knead time is not required. Also, the knead times for 00 flour were based on using different types of mixers, not planetary mixers.

Another example of a 00 flour/dough clone is given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1566.msg14293/topicseen.html#msg14293 (Reply 1). If you do an expanded forum search using cake flour or pastry flour generally or under my user name (Pete-zza), you will find other examples of flour blends for use in making clones of 00 doughs. To do an expanded forum search, click on the icon to the left of the Search box at the top of the page.

Peter

Offline benito

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 01:08:12 AM »
Use the Robin hood and experiment with others, start with 55% hydration, and short mix methods. Like small batches in 7 min.  Have fun Benito

Offline Essen1

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2008, 01:12:04 AM »
Even though I have the Caputo Pizza flour, I used a combo of 66% KABF and 33% Caputo P at a hydration of 62%. The dough was amazing, especially after a two day rise (one day cold).

Mike
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Offline fabio

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2008, 04:03:03 PM »
Hi Verace, and welcome! You must be from canada? I think robin-hood flour is only sold here. Before I was able to get my hands on caputo, that is one of the flours I experimented with. It is good, but I found Five Roses AP to be better. In my opinion, don't use the bread flour at all . . . neapolitan pizza generally doesn't have high gluten content.

While I've never used a deni, I have used other counter-top models, without much success. If you want anything close to a true neapolitan, 590F is just not going to cut it, in my opinion.

I have to disagree with benito, sorry. With the robin hood, I would go with a hydration of around 65%, with an autolyse period and about 15 minutes of mixing.

Another very important key, in my opinion again, is to use a sourdough starter instead of commercial yeast. With the robin hood, a 4 day cold rise would probably be best. Have you worked in baker's percents? Here's a recipe you may want to try based on my  suggestions:

RHAP      100.00%
Water   65.00%
Starter   8.00%
Salt      2.20%

For a 1 Kilo batch, that works out to:

RHAP      571
Water   371
Starter   46
Salt      13

All in grams, of course.

Shape the dough into balls about 20 minutes after kneading, then refrigerate for 2 to 6 days. A couple of hours before you are ready to cook, take them out of the fridge to do that last room-temp rise.

Offline Verace

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2008, 06:13:32 PM »
Many thanks for the suggestions.

I prepared four dough balls to be used as test pies, but unfortunately my Deni clone had a cardiac arrest after the first.  I don't normally use 'emoticons', but in this case the following seems appropriate:  :(.

I was hoping to test how the unit performed without modification, and to compare the results post-mod.  Alas from what I've seen inside, it may not be salvageable. 

For the sake of completeness, the first (and only!) pie used the following formulation thanks to a thread suggested by Pete-zza:

100%, Robin Hood All-purpose flour, 14.25 oz. (3 c.), plus Robin Hood Cake & Pastry flour, 4.90 oz. (1 c.)
62.7%, cool tap water (about 62˚ F),  12.00 oz. (1 1/2 c.)
?%,  Fermipan IDY,  0.75 oz. (¾ t.)       (Note- Experience suggests using less Fermipan than other IDYs)
2.4%, table salt, 0.45 oz. (1½ t.)
? %, dried skim milk powder, ? oz (2 t.)        (Couldn’t find dried dairy whey)
? % olive oil, ? % (2 t.)

I added about 75% of the flour mixture to the cool tap water in a Kitchen-Aid.  After a brief mix I allowed a 20 minute autolyse period followed by a 5 minute knead on speed 2.  The dough was rounded into four 8-ounce pieces; the dough rounds were refrigerated overnight. 

The single test pizza took about 8 minutes to cook.  As you might expect the bottom was a bit underdone and the top was somewhat pale.  The 62.7% hydration wasn't too hard to handle, presumably because of the autolyse and slow fermentation. 

Fabio, thanks for the idea of using Five Roses flour.  I'll follow up on this, as even the Robin Hood Cake & Pasty Flour is 10% gluten.  Thanks also to suggestions from Benito and Essen1.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2008, 06:47:33 PM »
Verace,

As a point of clarification, do you mean 0.075 oz. of the Fermitan IDY yeast (rather than 0.75 oz.)? Also, is the dry skim milk powder a supermarket brand like Carnation's rather than a baker's grade high-heat product?

Peter

Offline Verace

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2008, 07:34:45 PM »
Quite right, Peter.  It was clearly not 0.75 oz. of yeast.  Thanks for spotting that.

Yes it was Carnation skim milk powder.  (Since then I've found dried whey.)


Cheers,
Verace

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2008, 07:59:30 PM »
Verace,

I ran your numbers through the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and, after making a few adjustments based on your numbers, came up with the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%)*:
Water (62.6631%):
Fermipan IDY (0.39164%):
Table Salt (2.34986%):
Olive Oil (1.65775%):
Carnation's Dry Non-Fat Milk (0.52956%):
Total (167.59191%):
542.9 g  |  19.15 oz | 1.2 lbs
340.2 g  |  12 oz | 0.75 lbs
2.13 g | 0.075 oz | 0 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
12.76 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.00 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
2.87 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
909.86 g | 32.09 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = N/A
* 14.25 oz. RH all-purpose flour and 4.90 oz. RH cake and pastry flour

Peter


Offline tdeane

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Re: Starting Point for Neapolitan Dough
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 11:27:15 AM »
Real Neapolitan dough would never have any dairy products in it. Flour, water, yeast and salt are the only ingredients it should ever have. I think with a lower temp oven you would be better of using Robin Hood bread flour and around 60-62% hydration. It's not possible to make a Neapolitan pizza in a regular oven. I would shoot for a crispier NY style.


 

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