Author Topic: Why do I fight the dough ???  (Read 6769 times)

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Offline mykall

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Why do I fight the dough ???
« on: September 01, 2008, 11:09:30 AM »
Hello everyone, newb on this forum with a fundamental question.  Made some fairly good Pizza last night but I've got a problem and I don't know why this happens.  All goes well with my pizza dough, proofing, rising etc etc.  But...when I go to actually make the round pizza it's almost as though I'm fighting a rubber band, and the more I fight it, or even try to work with it, I get tears and the dough stiffens and nothing but problems.  When I use my hands to stretch the dough it retracts RIGHT back to where it was like a rubber band and zero progress is made.  I'm tempted to do the unthinkable and get a rolling pin. >:(  I watch people on videos and it's almost like we're working with two different types of dough.  When they roll theirs around they make progress continually.  Even when I've got enough to drape it over my knuckles, working with the edge just tears the middle. 

I've probably made Pizza a few hundred times now, but frustrating as it is, this is the one area in which I've made little progress.  What the heck am I doing wrong??

Thanks for any tips.

Mike





Offline Art

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008, 11:56:52 AM »
Those problems ended for me when I started using the low-yeast, refrigerated/retarded rise. I try to wait for at least 72 hours before using the dough and then bring it up to room temp for a couple of hours before forming.  Art
When baking, follow directions.  When cooking, go by your own taste.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008, 12:13:31 PM »
Post your recipe and methods of creating your dough. Then others will be able to help you figure out what is going on.

PNW

Offline goosen1

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 01:08:45 PM »
I'm with PNW on this... You might not have enough dough to make the size pizza you need.

Goose
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008, 01:22:04 PM »
Mike,

Do you re-knead, re-shape or re-ball the dough before you try to make a skin out of it?

Peter

Offline bolabola

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008, 07:09:43 PM »
Don't fight it..
the more you work the dough when finished the bigger of a mess you'll make..

after it has rested the proper time gently poke it down with your finger tips and then begin rotating the dough on your fists always working from the outer edge..

I have feeling you already know this so it might be your dough..your dough should be very elastic when it's finished and gets even more elastic as it ferments..you should be able to get it paper thin with out it tearing..
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Offline Garlic head

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008, 09:42:46 PM »
Mike,
To add to Peter's question above: Do you let the dough warm up for an hour or so before you work with it?

Kevin
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 09:54:56 PM by Garlic head »

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2008, 08:54:12 PM »
Thanks so much for all the replys.  My recipe:

1 Cup of 110deg filtered water
1 pkg Fleishman's AD yeast
1 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 tbs olive oil
1 1/2 tsp sugar
3 Cups of King Arthur AP flour (red package)

Mix the sugar and yeast dry with finger.  Add the water and mix with handle of wooden spoon until dissolved.  Let stand 5-7 minutes until frothy proof.  Add the olive oil and salt and start the K.A. with a dough hook on slow.  Slowly add the flour until incorporated and bring up to medium speed for about 4-5 minutes.  Remove from the bowl and roll over in a gentle knead, turn into a round shape and then put in an olive oil coated bowl covered either with a warm moist towel or plastic wrap and brush the top of dough w/ olive oil.  Let rise in a warm place like the top of the oven for about an hour.   Punch down and remove and knead a few times and work into a ball.  Try spreading out with fingers and...that's where the trouble starts.  Dough feels great when I punch it down, but it doesn't seem to last long. 




 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 09:13:45 PM »
Punch down and remove and knead a few times and work into a ball. 

mykall,

I believe your punching down and re-kneading the dough is the source of your problem, as I originally suspected. I discussed this problem recently at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7114.msg61234/topicseen.html#msg61234. Your dough is what is referred to in the trade as a short-term or emergency dough. Such doughs can sometimes be "bucky" because of the short fermentation time but if you don't re-work the dough when you are ready to use it you should be able to open up the dough and make a usable skin.

Peter


Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2008, 09:09:42 AM »
Pete-zza- Should I be letting it rise for longer?  I've wondered about that and often when I make Pizza it's with just about enough time to do the job, not a planned event.  I've always wondered if I could make a huge batch and then refrigerate it.  I've never been completely sure of my post rise handling of the dough.  I've seen some say you need to "work" it and others prefer minimal handling.  The few times it has worked my way I've gone the route of the latter.

Garlic Head- Other than an hour or so rise, no I don't.  I'm thinking of making my next dough on more "project" like terms just to see what happens with longer rise etc.  Some like Art above have suggested a refrigerated rise.  I've have never thought  that was possible give that yeast likes a warm environment.

I know I've got a lot to learn.   ;)


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2008, 09:47:39 AM »
Mike,

Based on my reading of posts on this forum, I would say that most of the members tend to use cold fermented dough--usually one or more days. For such doughs, you need only small amounts of yeast. To get an idea of the process, you might want to read this thread that I often recommend to newbies: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. Since cold fermentation of dough is popular on this forum, you will find a lot of other threads and posts on the subject.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2008, 10:48:16 AM »
Pete-zza

WOW, thanks for that thread!  I'm going to go over that in detail later when I've got more time.  Looks like a very good place for a noob to start.

thanks again

Mike

Offline bolabola

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2008, 11:58:42 PM »
Way to much yeast and I'd keep my dough in the mixer for 20 minutes..
makes it more elastic..
like pete-zza said..cold fermentation is the key..
best of luck Mike
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Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2008, 02:40:07 PM »
So how much yeast would you use?

thanks

Offline nancykb

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2008, 02:38:57 PM »
Ive had some of the same problems... plz if anyone could help me with these problems, pls let me know
#(316) 321-0101
Nancy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2008, 03:00:28 PM »
So how much yeast would you use?

Mike,

It isn't clear who you are directing your question to (bolabola or me), but I would estimate that for your amount of flour (3 cups KAAP) you could use about 1/3 teaspoon ADY to make a cold fermented dough. That amount might vary a bit depending on how you measure out the flour and its actual weight.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2008, 03:04:00 PM »
Ive had some of the same problems... plz if anyone could help me with these problems, pls let me know
#(316) 321-0101
Nancy

Nancy,

I may be mistaken, but I believe the above posts and the links embedded therein discuss the problems that you appear to be having. Is there something missing from that collective discussion that might bear on your problems?

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2008, 11:34:35 PM »
Pete,

Thanks, actually it was anyone who could help me.  I guess I'm not sure about the
cold fermentation process, but once you've got it ready in the fridge how long
can you store it?  I'm thinking of making a large batch and if it stores well keeping
some so I can have it ready.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2008, 07:55:18 AM »
Pete,

Thanks, actually it was anyone who could help me.  I guess I'm not sure about the
cold fermentation process, but once you've got it ready in the fridge how long
can you store it?  I'm thinking of making a large batch and if it stores well keeping
some so I can have it ready.



Mike,

In general, the window of usability of a dough depends largely on the amount of yeast used and the temperatures involved. If a large amount of yeast is used and the temperatures are high (e.g., water temperature, dough temperature and dough storage/fermentation temperature), then the dough will have a relatively short window of usability, for example, from a couple of hours to less than a day. If a small amount of yeast is used the the temperatures involved are low, then the dough can have a much longer window of usability, for example, from one day to several days. You can't take just any dough formulation and have it do both without changing it and the dough preparation methods and management. You, in effect, have to "design" or "program" the window of usability into the dough formulation. In your specific case, for a cold fermented dough to last several days you would have to use a small amount of yeast (along the lines I mentioned) and keep everything on the cold side--the water used to make the dough, the finished dough temperature coming out of the mixer bowl, and the refrigerator temperature at which the dough is to be stored and allowed to ferment.

Peter


Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2008, 01:09:22 AM »
I'm going to give cold a try.  Did I read somewhere on this site that you can actually
freeze dough for longer storage?  Must sound like I'm trying to get around making fresh dough all the time but I often find that I have little time and the dough is the lengthiest process in Pizza making.

Thanks again.