Author Topic: Why do I fight the dough ???  (Read 6614 times)

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Offline zalicious

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2008, 09:00:30 AM »
Yes, you can freeze the dough for later use. I've only done it once, but it worked just fine.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2008, 09:13:51 AM »
I'm going to give cold a try.  Did I read somewhere on this site that you can actually
freeze dough for longer storage?  Must sound like I'm trying to get around making fresh dough all the time but I often find that I have little time and the dough is the lengthiest process in Pizza making.


Mike,

I personally am not a big fan of freezing dough but, yes, it is possible to do so. However, if you know in advance that you want to make frozen dough, this is one of those cases where you actually want to use a lot more yeast than normal (about double or triple) because freezing is deleterious to yeast. Also, during freezing, there is no fermentation of the dough so you won't get most of the flavor by-products of fermentation beyond what you will get during the defrosting and warm-up of the frozen dough. Commercial producers of frozen dough balls for pizza operators who choose not to make their own dough flash freeze the dough balls and use a lot of chemical additives to combat the effects of freezing of the dough balls. Once defrosted (usually overnight in the cooler), they will only last a day or so before they start to degrade, which occurs pretty fast from that point.

To read more about freezing dough, you might want to read Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6981.msg59952.html#msg59952 and Reply 592 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg39105.html#msg39105.

Since other members have reported acceptable results making frozen dough, my best advice to you at this point is to try making and freezing some dough balls and judge for yourself from the results you get.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2008, 07:23:01 PM »
So if I wanted to use the cold fermentation method for 3 cups of flour, I'd cut the yeast from 1 package  to 1/2 a pack and then instead of putting it in a warm place for an hour, I'd put it in the fridge covered overnight?  Then I'd warm it up for a couple of hours and proceed as usual with a hopefully more workable dough.  Does that sound like a plan?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2008, 08:27:25 PM »
Mike,

I assume you are referring to the dough recipe you posted earlier:

1 Cup of 110deg filtered water
1 pkg Fleishman's AD yeast
1 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 tbs olive oil
1 1/2 tsp sugar
3 Cups of King Arthur AP flour (red package)

If so, if you want to make a cold fermented dough to be used after 1-2 days or so, by my estimation you would need only about 1/3 teaspoon of ADY for 3 cups of flour. You should use only a small portion of the formula water (maybe a quarter of a cup), at about 105 degrees F, to rehydrate the ADY, which should take about 10 minutes. You can then add the rehydrated ADY to the rest of the water, which should be cool, not at 105 degrees F. After making the dough, you should put it into the refrigerator for 1-2 days or so, remove it when you are ready to use it, let it warm up at room temperature for about 90 minutes, shape and stretch the dough to the desired size, dress it, and bake it.

To demonstrate the powerful effect of temperature, if you want to use your recipe as given above to make a dough that will ferment entirely at room temperature (e.g., around 80 degrees F) and have the dough double in about 20-24 hours, I estimate that you would only need a bit more than 1/64 teaspoon of ADY. At that rate, your packet of ADY, which weighs 0.25 ounce, would be enough to make almost 78 pizzas. In the set of mini measuring spoons shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264, the 1/64 teaspoon measuring spoon is the one labeled "drop". I recently made a 20-24 hour room temperature fermented dough that used a bit more than 1/128 teaspoon of IDY, or about half of the "drop" mini measuring spoon. In my case, at my rate of usage of the IDY, I estimated that a 0.25 ounce packet of IDY would be enough to make almost 175 pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 09:25:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2008, 09:26:30 PM »
Thanks Pete-zza,

I believe you stored yours in some sort of tin can?  Is that a better idea than using a bowl with plastic wrap?  And would if I wanted to make some dough to freeze, could I freeze this dough or would I be better off making a batch with less yeast?  Would I still cold ferment for 2 days or would I just freeze it?

Thanks

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2008, 09:59:00 PM »
I believe you stored yours in some sort of tin can?  Is that a better idea than using a bowl with plastic wrap?  And would if I wanted to make some dough to freeze, could I freeze this dough or would I be better off making a batch with less yeast?  Would I still cold ferment for 2 days or would I just freeze it?


Mike,

For a dough that is to be used within a few days, I don't think that it really matters what kind of container is used to store the dough while it is in the refrigerator. When I have used a lidded metal container (an old cookie tin), I was trying to make a dough that would last up to 15 days or more in the refrigerator. When I make room temperature fermented doughs, such as the one mentioned in my last post, I usually use a glass 1-qt. Pyrex bowl with the plastic lid that comes with it. I personally think that it is better to have a secure lid on the storage container so that the dough doesn't dry out on the surface and develop a skin.

If you want to make a dough that is to be frozen from the outset, I would use about 2/3 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon of ADY, make the dough in the usual manner but keeping the part of the water not used to rehydrate the ADY as cold as possible, divide the dough into the number of balls you plan to use, flatten them, put them into individual storage containers, such as plastic zip-type bags, and place them directly into the freezer compartment of your refrigerator (or in a standalone freezer). If you make the dough and then decide that you want to freeze some of it, you can do so but I would use the dough fairly soon, preferably within 10 days. I personally wouldn't cold ferment a dough in the refrigerator for a couple of days and then freeze it. However, it's your dough and you are free to do whatever you want with it.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2008, 12:08:15 AM »
Thanks Pete-zza,

I'm going to give that a try and experiment a little.  I actually think the cold fermentation method will work fine since I can see starting two days ahead of time with the bulk of the work and then thawing and making pizzas.   The way it is now, I have to plan quite a day and time to do the entire job.  With the cold fermentation method I can even start a dough at 10pm and then stick it in the fridge and it'll be ready in a day or two when I need it.

If I use a container like that or an old plastic coffee can doesn't the lid have to be partially off to allow air in, or do you just seal it?

Thanks for all the help.

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2008, 07:11:11 AM »
Mike,

When I used the metal cookie tins, I just sealed the tins with the tight-fitting lids. However, I did remove the lids from time to time to check on the progress of the dough. Doing that and because of the small amounts of yeast I used and the cold temperatures, I never did have a lid blow off. When I use the glass Pyrex bowl, the plastic lid that goes with the bowl has a small hole that I drilled in the middle to allow gases to escape and to release pressure while still keeping moisture in the bowl. Of course, one of the advantages of a clear bowl, whether it is of glass or plastic, is that you can see what is happening to the dough without having to remove the cover.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2008, 04:56:12 PM »
It works!  I did it, ok, ok I only cold fermented for about 28 hours but I got impatient and made some pie tonight.  Texture of the dough is MUCH better and more workable.  My pie making technique has got to improve, but no doubt this dough is much better.  I've got to say I had my doubts about whether this would work by peeking at the dough at about the 4 hour mark I saw little change.  A day later it had doubled in size and after a 2.5 hour warm up I was able to work with the dough. I put my dough in an old Folgers 39oz plastic coffee can with one paper clip size hole in the lid.

I'm going to use this technique from now on.  I not only like the results, but the "set it and forget it" availability of dough.

Thanks for all the help everyone!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2008, 05:02:27 PM »
Mike,

I'm glad to hear that you have achieved success.

For the record, would you mind reciting the dough recipe you finally used? Also, can you tell me which of the flour measurement methods defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397 you are using to measure out your flour?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 05:07:51 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2008, 10:43:11 PM »
Pete-zza,

Not sure what you meant by "flour measuring methods" but let me say FTR that I simply used my recipe that I posted and you "reposted"  on this thread.   The difference was that I took your advice and cut the yeast to 1/3 teaspoon which I eyeballed from a silverware set since I don't have a fractional teasp. measuring set.  I also think I should have used less than 1/3 tsp of sugar, but that will be another experiment.

Next time I will allow the full 48 hours of rise as opposed to 28.  I've got a LOT to learn but I'm very encouraged at this point.  Thanks again from everyone!

Mike

 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2008, 10:56:53 PM »
Mike,

Different people use different methods to get flour from the flour bag/container into the measuring cups in the right amounts (in your case, three cups). I was wondering how you do it.

As far as the sugar is concerned, you might reduce it if you experience premature or excessive bottom crust browning, or if you find the crust too sweet (even though you are not using an excessive amount of sugar). Sugar and oil in normal quantities also work to make the crumb a bit more tender. One-third teaspoon of sugar is so little that anything less is about zero.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2008, 11:51:42 PM »
Pete -zaa,

I simply measured with simple plastic measuring cups and the finger-leveling method.  I just don't know how else to describe it.  No...I did not use a pile-driven compression method!  ;D

WRT the sugar, I've always wondered for better or worse whether or not "over feeding" the yeast w/ surgar makes it more lethargic.  The line of thinking is, that if it has all it needs WRT food then why work on the flour?  OK, maybe this is incorrect, and I'm sure you'll let me know but I'll also experiment!!  I'm just thrilled right now that Pizza isn't necessarily a one day affair!

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2008, 12:31:44 AM »
Mike,

An excessive amount of sugar can affect the performance of the yeast due to osmotic pressure but, according to the theartisan.net piece at http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/dough_development.htm, you would have to have sugar in excess of 5%. I estimate that your sugar is about 1.6% of the weight of your three cups of flour. I have made many doughs with much more sugar in relation to the amount of yeast, without incident. For example, see Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762, where I made a Papa John's clone dough/pizza. For that dough, I used about 3 3/4 teaspoons of sugar for 3/100 teaspoon of IDY. That was about a tenth of the amount of IDY you used.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2008, 10:49:10 PM »
So how would you get dough this stretchy??

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8z0ajsvFPc&amp;NR=1" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8z0ajsvFPc&amp;NR=1</a>


After he finishes the first Pizza at about 1:07 he starts a second and about all he's got to do is gravity hang the dough off his knuckles, doesn't even need centrifugal force of spinning it to make a pie.   Is this rise time, type of flour, amount of yeast, hydration or what that achieves this?  If my most recent doughs were like this I'd have had no problem at all.  Can you get a dough like that with cold fermentation?

Thanks

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2008, 12:33:26 AM »
Mike,

You can't compare the results from using your dough recipe with Dom DeMarco's because his dough recipe is a lot different than yours. He makes dough several times a day, using a blend of 00 and high-gluten flours. The dough is of fairly high hydration and is kept warm in a drawer at the bottom of his oven so that it is easier to shape into skins. His dough uses no oil and no sugar. He also uses a commercial mixer that produces a much higher quality, more robust dough with better handling qualities than you will get using your home stand mixer. In my opinion, it is not a particularly good dough because of its minimal fermentation but it is a robust one with good handling qualities.

In your case it is hard to be precise with instructions since you are using volume measurements based on plastic measuring cups and your finger leveling method. If I had to guess, I would say that your flour measuring method is closest to the "dip" method. If I am right, I suspect that your hydration is on the low side. Next time, I would increase the water by 1/8 cup. I would also let the dough ferment in the refrigerator for 2 or 3 days. I believe that these changes will make the dough more extensible. If that doesn't work, come back and we can discuss the matter further based on your results. If you have a digital scale and can weigh the next dough batch you make, that would help with the analysis by allowing me to work backwards from your actual weight to arrive at a better number for the weight of your flour.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2008, 01:43:38 AM »
Pete-zza:

"Next time, I would increase the water by 1/8 cup. I would also let the dough ferment in the refrigerator for 2 or 3 days."


Thanks, that's what I was looking for, a place to start.  Will try these next time and see what I get.  You'll have to forgive my newbie-ness  and my lack of understanding of complex measuring techniques.  ;)

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2008, 07:43:46 AM »
Mike,

The relationship between the amount of flour and water is important since it governs how the dough will handle. Consequently, the way you measure out the flour is important. The particular method used can alter the hydration of the dough by several percent. I estimate that in your case the way you measure out the flour is lowering the hydration of your dough by about 6 percent, which is a lot. Your next dough batch may tell us if that is correct.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2008, 06:46:06 PM »
A little OT from this thread but this weekend I was up in Washington DC and had some pretty good wood oven fired Pizza.  The crust was very different from anything I've had, and I'm tempted to say that the crust was yeast-less if that possible.  Are there any pizzerias that don't use yeast?  The reason I say this is because of the rather hard-tack as opposed to bread-like nature of it.  It was really unique.   

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2008, 12:48:38 AM »
Ok, it's been solved.  It appears that actually the type of flour and yeast are not all that relevant and as of tonight I now believe that to be true.  I was even willing to try KA bread flour but I discovered something that really rocked my dough making world:

http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

He does mention this site so he's probably posted here, but what he says in this page addresses my problem.   IT IS a matter of mixing, KNEADING and autolyse and not equipment or flour.   I've got to tell this board that what I read and applied here works.  My last dough was so elastic-y that not only did it not break, but I was able to stretch it just by knuckle hanging like Dom of Di Fara does.  Many of you may be aware of this site but I was not.   The info contained addresses every problem I had and when applied I couldn't be happier about the results and more importantly moving forward, what I didn't understand about the basics.

ANYONE having rubbery, uncooperative  dough problems needs to read this.

I just thought I'd share this, but I'm sure many already are aware of this site.

Good night, it's late.

Mike