Author Topic: Why do I fight the dough ???  (Read 7434 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2008, 09:59:00 PM »
I believe you stored yours in some sort of tin can?  Is that a better idea than using a bowl with plastic wrap?  And would if I wanted to make some dough to freeze, could I freeze this dough or would I be better off making a batch with less yeast?  Would I still cold ferment for 2 days or would I just freeze it?


Mike,

For a dough that is to be used within a few days, I don't think that it really matters what kind of container is used to store the dough while it is in the refrigerator. When I have used a lidded metal container (an old cookie tin), I was trying to make a dough that would last up to 15 days or more in the refrigerator. When I make room temperature fermented doughs, such as the one mentioned in my last post, I usually use a glass 1-qt. Pyrex bowl with the plastic lid that comes with it. I personally think that it is better to have a secure lid on the storage container so that the dough doesn't dry out on the surface and develop a skin.

If you want to make a dough that is to be frozen from the outset, I would use about 2/3 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon of ADY, make the dough in the usual manner but keeping the part of the water not used to rehydrate the ADY as cold as possible, divide the dough into the number of balls you plan to use, flatten them, put them into individual storage containers, such as plastic zip-type bags, and place them directly into the freezer compartment of your refrigerator (or in a standalone freezer). If you make the dough and then decide that you want to freeze some of it, you can do so but I would use the dough fairly soon, preferably within 10 days. I personally wouldn't cold ferment a dough in the refrigerator for a couple of days and then freeze it. However, it's your dough and you are free to do whatever you want with it.

Peter


Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2008, 12:08:15 AM »
Thanks Pete-zza,

I'm going to give that a try and experiment a little.  I actually think the cold fermentation method will work fine since I can see starting two days ahead of time with the bulk of the work and then thawing and making pizzas.   The way it is now, I have to plan quite a day and time to do the entire job.  With the cold fermentation method I can even start a dough at 10pm and then stick it in the fridge and it'll be ready in a day or two when I need it.

If I use a container like that or an old plastic coffee can doesn't the lid have to be partially off to allow air in, or do you just seal it?

Thanks for all the help.

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2008, 07:11:11 AM »
Mike,

When I used the metal cookie tins, I just sealed the tins with the tight-fitting lids. However, I did remove the lids from time to time to check on the progress of the dough. Doing that and because of the small amounts of yeast I used and the cold temperatures, I never did have a lid blow off. When I use the glass Pyrex bowl, the plastic lid that goes with the bowl has a small hole that I drilled in the middle to allow gases to escape and to release pressure while still keeping moisture in the bowl. Of course, one of the advantages of a clear bowl, whether it is of glass or plastic, is that you can see what is happening to the dough without having to remove the cover.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2008, 04:56:12 PM »
It works!  I did it, ok, ok I only cold fermented for about 28 hours but I got impatient and made some pie tonight.  Texture of the dough is MUCH better and more workable.  My pie making technique has got to improve, but no doubt this dough is much better.  I've got to say I had my doubts about whether this would work by peeking at the dough at about the 4 hour mark I saw little change.  A day later it had doubled in size and after a 2.5 hour warm up I was able to work with the dough. I put my dough in an old Folgers 39oz plastic coffee can with one paper clip size hole in the lid.

I'm going to use this technique from now on.  I not only like the results, but the "set it and forget it" availability of dough.

Thanks for all the help everyone!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2008, 05:02:27 PM »
Mike,

I'm glad to hear that you have achieved success.

For the record, would you mind reciting the dough recipe you finally used? Also, can you tell me which of the flour measurement methods defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397 you are using to measure out your flour?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 05:07:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2008, 10:43:11 PM »
Pete-zza,

Not sure what you meant by "flour measuring methods" but let me say FTR that I simply used my recipe that I posted and you "reposted"  on this thread.   The difference was that I took your advice and cut the yeast to 1/3 teaspoon which I eyeballed from a silverware set since I don't have a fractional teasp. measuring set.  I also think I should have used less than 1/3 tsp of sugar, but that will be another experiment.

Next time I will allow the full 48 hours of rise as opposed to 28.  I've got a LOT to learn but I'm very encouraged at this point.  Thanks again from everyone!

Mike

 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2008, 10:56:53 PM »
Mike,

Different people use different methods to get flour from the flour bag/container into the measuring cups in the right amounts (in your case, three cups). I was wondering how you do it.

As far as the sugar is concerned, you might reduce it if you experience premature or excessive bottom crust browning, or if you find the crust too sweet (even though you are not using an excessive amount of sugar). Sugar and oil in normal quantities also work to make the crumb a bit more tender. One-third teaspoon of sugar is so little that anything less is about zero.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2008, 11:51:42 PM »
Pete -zaa,

I simply measured with simple plastic measuring cups and the finger-leveling method.  I just don't know how else to describe it.  No...I did not use a pile-driven compression method!  ;D

WRT the sugar, I've always wondered for better or worse whether or not "over feeding" the yeast w/ surgar makes it more lethargic.  The line of thinking is, that if it has all it needs WRT food then why work on the flour?  OK, maybe this is incorrect, and I'm sure you'll let me know but I'll also experiment!!  I'm just thrilled right now that Pizza isn't necessarily a one day affair!

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2008, 12:31:44 AM »
Mike,

An excessive amount of sugar can affect the performance of the yeast due to osmotic pressure but, according to the theartisan.net piece at http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/dough_development.htm, you would have to have sugar in excess of 5%. I estimate that your sugar is about 1.6% of the weight of your three cups of flour. I have made many doughs with much more sugar in relation to the amount of yeast, without incident. For example, see Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762, where I made a Papa John's clone dough/pizza. For that dough, I used about 3 3/4 teaspoons of sugar for 3/100 teaspoon of IDY. That was about a tenth of the amount of IDY you used.

Peter


Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2008, 10:49:10 PM »
So how would you get dough this stretchy??



After he finishes the first Pizza at about 1:07 he starts a second and about all he's got to do is gravity hang the dough off his knuckles, doesn't even need centrifugal force of spinning it to make a pie.   Is this rise time, type of flour, amount of yeast, hydration or what that achieves this?  If my most recent doughs were like this I'd have had no problem at all.  Can you get a dough like that with cold fermentation?

Thanks

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2008, 12:33:26 AM »
Mike,

You can't compare the results from using your dough recipe with Dom DeMarco's because his dough recipe is a lot different than yours. He makes dough several times a day, using a blend of 00 and high-gluten flours. The dough is of fairly high hydration and is kept warm in a drawer at the bottom of his oven so that it is easier to shape into skins. His dough uses no oil and no sugar. He also uses a commercial mixer that produces a much higher quality, more robust dough with better handling qualities than you will get using your home stand mixer. In my opinion, it is not a particularly good dough because of its minimal fermentation but it is a robust one with good handling qualities.

In your case it is hard to be precise with instructions since you are using volume measurements based on plastic measuring cups and your finger leveling method. If I had to guess, I would say that your flour measuring method is closest to the "dip" method. If I am right, I suspect that your hydration is on the low side. Next time, I would increase the water by 1/8 cup. I would also let the dough ferment in the refrigerator for 2 or 3 days. I believe that these changes will make the dough more extensible. If that doesn't work, come back and we can discuss the matter further based on your results. If you have a digital scale and can weigh the next dough batch you make, that would help with the analysis by allowing me to work backwards from your actual weight to arrive at a better number for the weight of your flour.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2008, 01:43:38 AM »
Pete-zza:

"Next time, I would increase the water by 1/8 cup. I would also let the dough ferment in the refrigerator for 2 or 3 days."


Thanks, that's what I was looking for, a place to start.  Will try these next time and see what I get.  You'll have to forgive my newbie-ness  and my lack of understanding of complex measuring techniques.  ;)

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2008, 07:43:46 AM »
Mike,

The relationship between the amount of flour and water is important since it governs how the dough will handle. Consequently, the way you measure out the flour is important. The particular method used can alter the hydration of the dough by several percent. I estimate that in your case the way you measure out the flour is lowering the hydration of your dough by about 6 percent, which is a lot. Your next dough batch may tell us if that is correct.

Peter

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2008, 06:46:06 PM »
A little OT from this thread but this weekend I was up in Washington DC and had some pretty good wood oven fired Pizza.  The crust was very different from anything I've had, and I'm tempted to say that the crust was yeast-less if that possible.  Are there any pizzerias that don't use yeast?  The reason I say this is because of the rather hard-tack as opposed to bread-like nature of it.  It was really unique.   

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2008, 12:48:38 AM »
Ok, it's been solved.  It appears that actually the type of flour and yeast are not all that relevant and as of tonight I now believe that to be true.  I was even willing to try KA bread flour but I discovered something that really rocked my dough making world:

http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

He does mention this site so he's probably posted here, but what he says in this page addresses my problem.   IT IS a matter of mixing, KNEADING and autolyse and not equipment or flour.   I've got to tell this board that what I read and applied here works.  My last dough was so elastic-y that not only did it not break, but I was able to stretch it just by knuckle hanging like Dom of Di Fara does.  Many of you may be aware of this site but I was not.   The info contained addresses every problem I had and when applied I couldn't be happier about the results and more importantly moving forward, what I didn't understand about the basics.

ANYONE having rubbery, uncooperative  dough problems needs to read this.

I just thought I'd share this, but I'm sure many already are aware of this site.

Good night, it's late.

Mike

 

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2008, 12:54:41 PM »
Yes,  Jeff's method works beautifully.  The autolyse process,  and the five minute wet mix/knead with 75% of the flour before adding the remaining 25% of flour is excellent.  My cold fermented dough is so extensible,  that it just stretches like crazy while doing the knuckle hanging stretch.  Sometimes it stretches so fast that I get worried because I've got such a large portion of the dough on top of my hands and dont want the rest of it to be paper thin,  with the other side big and thick.  Actually,  I should revise that statement as I dont do it like Dom is doing it,  my skinning process has turned into a three step process basically.  1) I place the dough on top of my fists and do a slight spin/stretch.  This is where the dough stretches extremely quickly, and flops down onto my arms,  then  2) I change to the technique I saw on Youtube video's which I believe are from Bill (one of the moderators on here) where you basically grip the ring with both hands and work your way around the dough keeping a portion on the dough on the table while you're turning it.  3) then I flop it out onto the floured board and do the spin stretch to form it into the final skin.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 01:08:53 PM by anton-luigi »

Offline mykall

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Re: Why do I fight the dough ???
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2008, 10:36:03 PM »
I was very pleased with the results.  A few weeks ago, when the dough didn't cooperate I upped the hydro and it did stretch a little but it ripped like wet newspaper.  After carefully reading Jeff's page I realized what I was doing wrong.  The dough stretched like a dream and never ruptured.  I could essentially do what I wanted with it.  Again I was very pleased with the results.