Delicate dough that rips

[gabriel]

Hello everyone,

Ever since I started making my dough with a homemade starter, I have the problem that the dough rips when I stretch it into pie shape. I've tried with several different flours (King Arthur AP, Caputo 00, Bel Aria 00, Whole Foods organic AP, ...) and I get the same result.

My typical formula:
100% flour
58 - 60% water
1% 100-percent hydrated starter
salt to taste

Is it over-fermentation?  Typically, I knead for 5 minutes and then let it rise 12 hours, punch down and rise for another 12 hours. Any ideas?

Thanks for your help, I appreciate anyone who has insight on this issue.

Best regards,
Gabriel

[Pizza_Not_War]

Gabriel,

Your formula varies from my usual in several important ways.

1. Salt, I generally use 2.5%+ - You go by taste and that is ?
2. 1% starter is really low unless your starter is insanely active. I generally use 5% for a 24 hour rise.
3. I usually don't touch the dough until 20 hours (65-68 degrees) and then gently cut/portion & ball up for a few more hours of rise time.
4. Your hydration is a bit lower than mine but I doubt that is an issue here.
5. Mix time of 5 minutes. How are you mixing? I would do 5 minutes on the Bosch with Caputo and be ok. 5 minutes on a KA or by hand would not be enough for me to develop the gluten.

I think you need to tackle each item to get the right output. I would start by measuring salt and boosting the starter.

PNW

[gabriel]

Thank you very much Pizza Not War.

1. My salt is in your suggested range. I wrote "to taste" because sometimes I just prefer it less salty.

2. As for the starter, it is pretty active...I use such a small amount because of a thread I read here, where Marco said that in Naples a very small amount of starter is used (5% he said would be quite high, I believe).

Nevertheless, I don't have any problems getting the dough to rise (it will double in 10 hours 85F outside, or 14-16 hours 78F inside). Does less/more starter make delicate dough?

3. I do the individual ball cutting/portioning after the dough has doubled in size (see above schedule). Perhaps I will try letting it rise for longer before I do that.

4. I have always had a difficult time getting over 60% hydration because simply is too sticky too handle. (Any tips?)

5. I knead (vigorously) by hand for 5 - 10 minutes. Is this too little?

Thank you again!

[scpizza]

Salt, hydration, starter % are fine.  Three possibilities come to mind:

1) You are rising this dough at too warm a temperature.  1% starter and 24 hours is fine as long as you are <70F.  Otherwise you are over-rising your dough.  Note, there should never be a need to "punch down" Neapolitan pizza dough - that's a red flag.

2) You are kneading improperly / not enough to form a proper gluten structure.  5-10 minutes is not enough hand kneading.  Try 20-30 minutes.

3) Your starter is not fresh and well-washed.

[gabriel]

Thank you scpizza.

I will see if I can lower the temperature in my place, or otherwise rise the dough for fewer hours. As for "punch down," I guess it's just a term I've picked up here. By punch down, I simply mean a quick re-form into ball shape.

I'm going to give the 20 - 30 minute kneading a try. I'll let you all know what happens in a couple days.

Many thanks.

[scott r]

gabriel, I find that I need to do longer hand kneads with caputo than I do with any other brand of flour.  Here is my favorite link on the subject. http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style.htm


Your dough is definitely under mixed, but beware that over mixing has the same symptoms, sticky dough that tears easily.  I find it useful to over knead a batch when I am teaching someone how to mix dough so they know what all the stages of gluten development look and feel like.   This might be a fun experiment for you to try.

Good luck! 

[gabriel]

Thank you for your help scott r and everyone.

i had success! i kneaded the dough for about 15 minutes and there were several great benefits to it. the dough rose more, smelled nicer, had a lighter texture, and, most importantly, did not tear at all when stretching to pie shape.

actually the first time, i believe i overkneaded, because the dough started to contract very rapidly and wouldnt stretch a bit. this happened after a phase of very elastic dough.

a very important side note...with properly mixing the dough, there were leopard spots from baking! this i something that i've never achieved before, and i wonder if its because of the benefits of proper mixing.

thank you and i wish you all great success in pizza!