Author Topic: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough  (Read 47808 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2009, 07:38:37 PM »
Peter,  I am glad you were curious enough to perform the Caputo test. 

Marc,

All of this has been a pleasant distraction, and, thanks to you for initiating the effort, I have learned a lot--much more than I expected. I have been eating reheated leftover slices of the last two pizzas and they are quite satisfying. It will be interesting to see how the "no commercial yeast" method works as the weather turns cool. Maybe then we will have to add some commercial yeast to keep the doughs within the 24-hour room temperature fermentation window.

Peter


Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2009, 08:37:51 PM »
Quote from: Pete-zza
But I am pretty sure that Tom said that another way to increase the starch damage was to mix some of the flour into boiling water.

This will indeed also increase the starch damage. So much so that the change in texture will be immediately apparent. But it will probably also kill the source of your wild yeast. I'm pretty sure that the wild yeast comes packaged in the flour bag. I used to irradiate flour before trying to capture wild yeast. And the first thing that I noticed is that flour right out of the bag will always make a sourdough that rises. But you can often leave irradiated flour (which has killed any yeast that was in the flour) and water mix out for a long, long time @ 30C and still not get any rise.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2009, 08:51:59 PM »
pacoast,

My memory on this is hazy, especially since I never pursued Tom's suggestion, but I believe that only a part of the formula flour would be put in boiling water (presumably part of the formula water), not all of it. I will see if I can find anything further on this matter.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #103 on: August 23, 2009, 12:24:41 PM »
I will see if I can find anything further on this matter.


I did a fairly extensive Google search on this subject and the only place I could find that discussed mixing flour into boiling water to increase the starch damage is at page 103 of the book What's with Fiber. You can use the search feature or use the LOOK INSIDE feature at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159120111X/?tag=pizzamaking-20 to view page 103 of the book. I can't copy and paste page 103, but it basically discusses making a "mash" of part of the flour and boiling water to increase the starch damage. Apparently the mash works well with whole grain doughs, which is in keeping with the overarching theme of the book to improve one's health.

Peter

Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2009, 05:42:17 PM »
Thanks Peter. Here's the excerpt -

Quote
Fortunately, there is no need for the miller to devise a way to produce enough damaged starch in flours. When soft wheats were more generally used in Western Europe for making breads, bakers were damaging the starch by first making a mash from a portion of the flour, a technique that fell from favor with the widespread use of refined flour and baker's yeast. Beermakers know about mashing grains with enzyme-active malt. The mash lasts one to three hours and the temperature is usually 60-70C (140-158F). Enzymes such as alpha-amylase and phytase are sped up, while beta-amylase and other enzymes are deactivated. Amylase can convert starch into simple sugars and sweet-tasting oligosacchardies that can be selectively used by the sourdough bacteria and yeasts. Phytase breaks down phytic acid into inositol and phosphate, and releases minerals. Making this mash by adding boiling water to flour, damages the starch too, so it is not necessary for the milling process to be the source of the adequate damaged starch. The improvement in the bread by using a mash is particularly exciting for wholegrain breadmaking. Damaged starch, from the mash, can make a dough stiff enough to hold all the water required to fully hydrate the bran fiber and all the soluble fiber, and still stand up as a shaped bread. fully hydrated bran will be so soft that it can no longer be accused of piercing, and ruining, the gluten structure of the bread.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #105 on: August 23, 2009, 07:48:36 PM »
pacoast,

Thank you for posting the excerpt.

During my Google search, I learned that flours milled in the U.S., whether soft/hard or spring/winter wheat flour, have starch damage that falls in the general range of 6-10%. By contrast, flours milled from soft wheat grains, which appears to cover many European flours, tend to have starch damage that falls in the range of 4-6%.

Peter

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2009, 08:39:25 AM »
Peter Reinhart, in his book Whole Grain Breads, at pages 54-55 suggests using a mash.  He doesn't discuss damaged starch, but does suggest limiting the temperature to 165 F (74 C) and a 250% hydration.  While this is integral to his whole grain method, he seems to suggest care as too much mash seems to make the crumb gummy.

Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2009, 04:14:50 PM »
This is the passage that UnConundrum is referring to:

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Mashes and Scalds

If the two most important pieces of the whole grain bread puzzle are the starter, or preferment, and the soaker, the third piece of the puzzle, in some of the breads, is a mash, a concoction made of scaled, partially gelatinized grain. Historically, grain mashes were used in both baking and brewing as a medium for growing yeast and also for extracting flavor from the grain. When starches are gelatinized by scalding, they are much more welcoming to enzymes. Brewers have made use of this knowledge to make their sweet work, the grain-based tea that later becomes beer. The problem with scalding the grains, from the bread making perspective, is that most enzymes cannot survive temperatures in excess of 170F, and some enzymes become denatured at even cooler temperatures.

[...] but in all cases the purpose was the same; to create a medium in which microorganisms, especially yeast, could thrive and propagate. When these mashes were used as the starters for breads, they introduced a large proportion of gelatinized starch to the final dough, and this is the unique flavor and texture that I want to capture in the mash breads in this book.

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Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2009, 03:19:00 AM »

You might also be interested in knowing that you can make your own diastatic malt. Usually barley is used, mainly because of its origins in beer making but also because it is cheaper than other grains, but wheat berries can also be used to make diastatic malt. You can read how to do this at http://www.radicalfrugality.info/homemade-diastatic-malt.html :chef:. Isn't science wonderful :-D?

Peter


Comparing the cost of malt online to the coolness of making it...I'll just buy it and tell others I made it ;D But seriously, what would be the advantage of using diastatic malt over sugar? Would the malt produce long fermentation time effects in a shorter time?

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2009, 11:25:51 AM »
Saad,

Those are excellent questions. I suppose that it is possible to use ordinary table sugar (sucrose) to increase the sugar content of the dough and achieve certain performance characteristics but I don't know how you would assess the amount of sugar, or the timing of its use, to produce the same results as using diastatic malt. It is important to keep in mind that diastatic malt is not intended as a sugar substitute even though its use results in natural sugar production. It is added by the miller or baker in order to increase the enzymes in the flour that convert damaged starch to simple sugars. Those simple sugars can then be fermented by the yeast to produce carbon dioxide and alcohol and to be available at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. As such, the diastatic malt should perform at the same time and at the same rate as the preexisting enzymes (alpha-amylase) in the flour. If the recipe used by the baker calls for table sugar, or the baker deems the use of table sugar to be desirable, for example, for added sweetness in the finished product, that decision is left entirely to the baker.

As you might suspect, diastatic malts that are added to the flour by the miller are in dry form. By itself, and unlike nondiastatic malts, and especially their liquid form, a dry diastatic malt does not add much in the way of flavor or color or texture of the finished crust. For that, you would have to use a liquid form of the diastatic malt. However, the diastatic malt does improve dough handling by helping modify, or relax, the gluten in the flour. It is also fairly rich in vitamins and other nutritional components. By contrast, sucrose is a complex sugar with little or no nutritional value (as you will note if you look at the labeling information on a bag of sugar). Moreover, before it can be used as food by the yeast, and to be used most effectively in the Maillard reactions for crust coloration purposes, the sugar has to be converted to simple, or reducing, sugars. How long that will take depends to a great extent on the dough formulation and the fermentation method used (room temperature or cold fermentation). Tom Lehmann discusses the timing issue of the use of sugar, and when it is most efficacious for crust coloration purposes, in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26890#26890. As that post notes, there are enough natural sugars in a dough to support a fairly long fermentation period. That is primarily a function of the alpha-enzyme activity in the dough. Beyond that, the baker can add more sugar, whether in the form of table sugar, honey, maple sugar, etc., if desired or deemed necessary.

Peter

 

« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:28:38 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2009, 02:13:21 PM »
I read your reply and Tom's also many times. It seems that added sugar remains present in the dough through out the fermentation process and all the way to the end to contribute to to crust coloration. What confuses me is how come it's not consumed in the initial fermentation stages as it's ready food for the yeast where as starch break-down is still in process. I guess that the sugar level is in excess of what the yeast can consume until the starch break-down can manifest. Thus, maintaining excess levels of sugar until bake time which will contribute to color and sweetness.

As for the diastatic malt, is more like a way of supporting the organic sugar production from starch by means of accelerating the dough maturation. Wouldn't there be excess sugar? Hmmm....but I can see that if we add both; sugar and diastatic malt, we can achieve a sweeter tasting crust.

Very interesting stuff...

Saad
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 02:18:34 PM by s00da »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #111 on: August 28, 2009, 03:09:26 PM »
Saad,

If you go down a few PMQ Think Tank posts from the one I gave you in my last post, to Tom's further post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26952&sid=63830572bc4bf7c74911a35e3db0e4b2#26952, you will see why sucrose does not immediately participate in the fermentation process. Since it is not a simple sugar, it has to be converted to a form usable by the yeast. This action is discussed in the following excerpt from the theartisan.net website:

Sugar Utilization

Yeast exhibits a variable preference for different sugars. It readily assimilates four sugars, namely, sucrose (after hydrolysis to glucose and fructose by yeast invertase or sucrase), glucose, fructose, and maltose (after hydrolysis to glucose by yeast maltase). In yeasted doughs, an increase in maltose occurs during the first stages of fermentation, until the initial supply of glucose and fructose is exhausted, after which the maltose content gradually declines. Studies of the preferential utilization of sugars by yeast are documented in the literature, but this is not a topic for this discussion.
(Emphasis mine)

Doughs prepared only from flour, water, yeast and salt will initially contain only about 0.5% of glucose and fructose derived from the flour. This is adequate to start fermentation and to activate the yeasts adaptive malto-zymase system that is responsible for maltose fermentation. Fermentation is sustained by the action of a- and beta-amylases of flour that convert the susceptible damaged starch granules into maltose. Damaged starch results from milling and its level is normally much higher in hard wheat flours than in soft wheat flours.

There is a point, usually when the dough has reached severe overfermentation, where the sugar levels become so low as to no longer support normal yeast cellular reproductive activity. This is more likely to occur where the amount of formula yeast used is high and has consumed all or almost all of the available sugars, both natural and added. I didn't mention it earlier but I have read that when diastatic malt is used, one can reduce the amount of yeast in the dough formulation. Apparently this keeps everything in better balance in terms of dough development/maturation and sugar levels. It is also sometimes suggested that the formula sugar, if any, be reduced.

Peter

« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:15:09 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2009, 04:58:44 PM »
Amazing literature Pete, thanks a lot! From what Tom is saying, it seems that using honey is a better choice than sugar although I'm not a fan of using either. Regarding substituting olive oil with butter, have you ever tested that?

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2009, 05:55:43 PM »
Saad,

As a generalization, I don't necessarily think that honey is preferable to table sugar (sucrose). I think it depends on the what you are trying to accomplish. For example, one of the advantages of honey over sugar is for short-term, or "emergency", doughs where the fermentation period is too short for the table sugar to be adequately converted to simple sugars. An example of where I took advantage of the simple sugars in honey is the dough that I described at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. The dough in that case was only a 2-hour dough but I believe that it could have gone several hours more while retaining good crust coloration. I have seen many doughs loaded with table sugar but with poor crust coloration after a short period of fermentation (e.g., a few hours), apparently because of insufficient time to convert the sugar to simple sugars. Often the crust coloration is more from the protein in the flour used. For longer periods of fermentation, such as cold fermentation over a few days, I think that both honey and sugar will work well.

As the experiments in this thread have demonstrated, there is no need to add any sugar to a dough that is to be fermented at room temperature for long period (e.g., for a day or so). However, I think we are on the cusp and that perhaps a bit of sugar in the dough might help produce improved crust coloration. I hope at some point to run an experiment using sugar in some form in the dough to see if that is the case. While I am at it, I might also add some oil.

I'm sure that I have substituted butter for oil in some dough at some point but my recollection is that I did not see sufficient merit to use butter more frequently. I might also add that Tom Lehmann is quite fond of talking about butter in the same breath as honey, usually in the context of using whole wheat flour, as you will see from his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=46829#46829, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34627#34627 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34629#34629.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #114 on: August 29, 2009, 08:16:18 AM »
I would just like to point out something that might help those who are not that familiar with the term-pair "reducing sugar" since it represents an important bridge between biology (i.e. yeast activity) and thermodynamics (i.e. baking).  As Peter pointed out, sucrose is not a simple sugar (monosaccharide) and it also isn't a reducing sugar (reacts to form an aldehyde or ketone).  A common mistake people make is assuming that reducing sugars are in fact simple sugars.  Many times they are, but that's a gross generalization.  Maltose for instance is a reducing sugar, but it isn't a simple sugar.  Because yeast and other organisms in this world get their energy from chemical reactions, while baking (and cooking) is essentially a process whereby chemical reactions alter the food's composition and structure, it is probably more productive to talk about sugars in terms of their reducibility (reaction potential), instead of their simplicity.

The general rule that I wanted people to think about is: The more a molecule reacts in the oven, where browning is usually of concern, the more potential energy it can supply an organism.  The organism must be genetically predisposed for a certain metabolic pathway to utilize a specific reducing agent, but most organisms have adapted to using sugars.  So when dealing with adding sugars to a dough, consider their reducibility.  What works for the yeast will work for your browning.  Even proteins that can be metabolized are often the same as those that contribute to browning.  It's all driven by the same thermodynamics with few exceptions, just at different energy levels.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #115 on: August 29, 2009, 10:32:01 AM »
November,

Thank you for the clarification. As a non-chemist, I am sure that somewhere along the way I have confused simple sugars with reducing sugars. However, now that I think back, my recollection is that simple sugars seem to be discussed in the context of sugars that yeast uses as food, and that reducing sugars seem to be discussed in the context of crust coloration, for example, the reaction between reducing sugars and protein (amino acids) for Maillard reactions, in the presence of heat.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #116 on: August 29, 2009, 10:54:54 AM »
I do not think that I have understood what November posted ;D but I do appreciate that he posts something that will keep me thinking for a while. I hope I can translate it to easier terms specially if it will be useful for my pizza journey.

Saad
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 10:56:41 AM by s00da »

Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #117 on: August 29, 2009, 01:52:03 PM »
These are common reducing sugars. Our crust browning is largely a Maillard reaction, i.e., the reaction of a reducing sugar & amino acid under heat.
glucose  -  'grape/corn sugar'
fructose  -  e.g. honey
lactose  -  'milk sugar'
maltose  -  'malt sugar'
arabinose  -  'apple sugar'
glyceraldehyde  -  intermediate product of carbohydrate metabolism



edit to correct mischaracterization of maltose
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 05:35:53 PM by pacoast »

Offline November

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #118 on: August 29, 2009, 02:35:51 PM »
Peter,

However, now that I think back, my recollection is that simple sugars seem to be discussed in the context of sugars that yeast uses as food,

That's a difficult context for simple sugars to be placed in.  "Simple sugar" is just a layman's term for monosaccharide, or single molecular unit that cannot be further hydrolyzed.  When referring to what an organism "uses as food", one might have to pay more attention to the definition of food.  I can eat starch as "food" but my cells can't metabolize starch until it's broken down into glucose.  There are a lot of substances yeast uses as food that it can't metabolize directly either.  Alternately, there are simple sugars certain yeast can't use as food.  That's why I think it could be confusing to use "simple" sugars in the context of yeast food.  It seems to me that it would be much easier to say "sugars" and leave off the "simple."  Maybe then people can spend less time consulting the dictionary.  ;D

pacoast,

Why did you associate milk with maltose?  Maltose is found in germinating grains.  Are you thinking of malted milk?  That's just malted barley added to milk.


Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #119 on: August 29, 2009, 05:38:50 PM »
Why did you associate milk with maltose?

Typo. I don't always take sufficient time to proofread what I've typed. Thanks for catching the error.

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