Author Topic: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough  (Read 46238 times)

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Infoodel

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2009, 01:48:30 AM »
To obtain v. small amounts of yeast, you can dissolve IDY in room temperature water and use a fraction of the 'yeast water' in mixing the dough. Tried this a few days ago (this is a technique Craig Ponsford of BBGA uses)  and it worked a treat. No problems with a 20 hour fermentation. I'm surprised to read about 'shocking the yeast' with cold water - I can't say that has ever been a problem that I've encountered except possibly when using ADY.
If you find the dough lacks strength during the long ferment, rather than 'rekneading the dough', I'd recommend a simple stretch-and-fold at regular intervals and perhaps less kneading during the mixing stage. Yes, this will develop the gluten in a different way...and kind of depends on the dough formula (esp. hydration).

Hope that helps

Cheers,
Toby


« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 02:16:51 AM by Infoodel »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2009, 09:02:38 AM »
Toby,

You raise several good points.

First, with respect to the method you mentioned to measure out small amounts of yeast, can you tell me how you would do it for, say, 1/128 teaspoon of IDY? I thought to do something similar by "diluting" a larger amount of yeast in a measured quantity of flour, as is sometimes done with ascorbic acid, which is used in doughs in parts per million, but I did not want the moisture in the flour (which can range from about 10-15.5%), to start the IDY rehydration process (I was thinking of making a fairly large supply and keeping it on hand in my refrigerator for future use). I didn't go beyond the thinking stage on this, since, as mentioned earlier, I have mini-measuring spoons to do direct measurements. Nonetheless, an alternative solution may be useful for those who, like Patrick, do not have or want to invest in a set of mini-measuring spoons. 

Second, with respect to shocking yeast with cold water, I am referring to adding yeast directly to the cold water, such as water cold right out of the refrigerator or even ice cold water. Even though modern strains of yeast have been engineered to have greater resistance to cold water, as is noted, for example, at the middle of the article on yeast at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8912.0.html, I am not aware of any yeast producer that recommends that any yeast be added directly to cold water. Rather, the recommended method is to add the yeast, say, IDY, to the flour and then add the cold water. In this case, the flour buffers the yeast from the effects of the cold water. Even better is to let the yeast sit in the flour for a while before adding the cold water to allow the yeast to start to be activated by the moisture in the flour. On those occasions where it is desirable or necessary to activate IDY directly in water, for example, when the mix time is to be very short (or for any other reason), the prevailing advice is to use water at 95 degrees F (35 degrees C), as noted, for example, by Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking at his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50956#50956. I believe that is the same temperature he recommends for fresh (compressed) yeast; for ADY, he recommends about 105 degrees F (about 40.6 degrees C).

Third, I agree that using the stretch-and-fold method is a good way of dealing with a dough that has risen substantially during a long room-temperature fermentation. Although I personally try to avoid or minimize using most techniques that are unique to bread dough making when making pizza dough, I did use the stretch-and-fold method when I attempted to create a clone of Brian Spangler's high-hydration pizza dough as described earlier in this thread. It is an effective technique for that application.

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2009, 09:41:51 AM »
First, with respect to the method you mentioned to measure out small amounts of yeast, can you tell me how you would do it for, say, 1/128 teaspoon of IDY?"

Hmm for 1/128 - I'm guessing a 1/4 tsp IDY dissolved in 512ml water - and then use 16ml in the final dough.
Quote
Second, with respect to shocking yeast with cold water, I am referring to adding yeast directly to the cold water, such as water cold right out of the refrigerator or even ice cold water. Even though modern strains of yeast have been engineered to have greater resistance to cold water, as is noted, for example, at the middle of the article on yeast at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8912.0.html, I am not aware of any yeast producer that recommends that any yeast be added directly to cold water. Rather, the recommended method is to add the yeast, say, IDY, to the flour and then add the cold water. In this case, the flour buffers the yeast from the effects of the cold water. Even better is to let the yeast sit in the flour for a while before adding the cold water to allow the yeast to start to be activated by the moisture in the flour. On those occasions where it is desirable or necessary to activate IDY directly in water, for example, when the mix time is to be very short (or for any other reason), the prevailing advice is to use water at 95 degrees F (35 degrees C), as noted, for example, by Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking at his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50956#50956. I believe that is the same temperature he recommends for fresh (compressed) yeast; for ADY, he recommends about 105 degrees F (about 40.6 degrees C).

Cool, thanks for this info! 

Toby
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 09:43:22 AM by Infoodel »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2009, 01:04:03 PM »
Hmm for 1/128 - I'm guessing a 1/4 tsp IDY dissolved in 512ml water - and then use 16ml in the final dough.Cool, thanks for this info! 

Toby,

I assume that you used 512 ml in order to get a final quantity, 16 ml (512/32 = 16), that is a workable one using most measuring cups. However, when I looked at the ml markings on my one-cup measuring cup, the smallest value shown is 50 ml. Also, the water used to rehydate the IDY has to be around 95 degrees F, and most of the water/IDY mixture will be thrown away (or used for something else) if it is desired to use a much lower water temperature (cold or ice cold water) to slow down a room-temperature fermentation. The hydration of the dough formulation will also have to be reduced to compensate for the roughly 16 ml of water. All of this math may be too challenging for some of our members. As careful as I am with my numbers, I still make math errors. So, I personally would rather spring for the mini-measuring spoons ;D. However, I appreciate your solution and will keep it in mind.

Peter

Offline andreguidon

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2009, 01:07:43 PM »
hi pete... 16ml (water) = 16grams (water)

maybe just weight the 16g of water+yeast.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2009, 01:44:12 PM »
Andre,

Good point. You are correct in that 16 ml of water weighs 16 grams. I was thinking more of those who may not have scales. But if they have scales, they can use them to weigh out 16 grams as well as the formula water less the 16 grams. Each different amount of yeast will require recalculation, however.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 01:51:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Infoodel

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2009, 03:31:34 PM »
Sorry I should have stated it in weight - that would have made it more obvious. but yes 1 litre = 1 kg.
I made the mistake of assuming one has access to an electronic scale (or triple beam scale).
Regarding factoring the weight of the yeast in...the weight of a 1/4 tsp of yeast is minimal and one assumes it to be virtually nil...this approximation holds whether mixing in water or flour.

Cheers,
Toby
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 03:34:21 PM by Infoodel »

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2009, 11:39:36 AM »
I finally tried the 24 hour room temp ferment.  I had been using the 3-4 day cold ferment with satisfactory results,  but wanted to give this a shot as well.  I made several changes at once,  used a new flour that I had not tried before called Dakota Mill high protein bread flour( I do not have the specifics of the flour)  I also used the Pellegrino sparkling spring water that I de-carbonated.  The dough was prepared according to Varasano's kitchen-aid method.  I do a 20 minute autolyse with 75% of the flour and all of the water and all of the starter(I used my Ischia),  then a 5 minute knead,  followed by a 3 minute knead where I add the final 25% of flour, the salt and the sugar.  I omitted the IDY altogether for this batch.  I am using a Hobart(Kitchen Aid mixer) with a regular hook.  My dough ingredients are as follows:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    742.37 g  |  26.19 oz | 1.64 lbs
Water (63%):    467.69 g  |  16.5 oz | 1.03 lbs
Salt (3%):    22.27 g | 0.79 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.99 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
Sugar (3%):    22.27 g | 0.79 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.59 tsp | 1.86 tbsp
Total (169%):   1254.6 g | 44.25 oz | 2.77 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   418.2 g | 14.75 oz | 0.92 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    31.37 g | 1.11 oz | 0.07 lbs
Water:    31.37 g | 1.11 oz | 0.07 lbs
Total:    62.73 g | 2.21 oz | 0.14 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    711 g | 25.08 oz | 1.57 lbs
Water:    436.33 g | 15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs
Salt:    22.27 g | 0.79 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.99 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
Preferment:    62.73 g | 2.21 oz | 0.14 lbs
Sugar:    22.27 g | 0.79 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.59 tsp | 1.86 tbsp
Total:    1254.6 g | 44.25 oz | 2.77 lbs  | TF = N/A

I do seem to be using quite a large ball for my skins,  but I do make the pizza's quite large,  and enjoy the thick rim myself.

The balls were placed on a flour sack towel on top of a large cookie sheet and then covered with saran wrap to avoid skinning over.  Placed in my basement,  and kept at a temp between 62 and 64.  I have never used a starter percentage as low as this before,  and did miss some of the flavor I had been achieving with the longer cold ferments.  I had a few friends over,  and they were extremely impressed with the pizza.  This batch was also cooked with the new "Old Stone Oven" rectangle stone in my electric oven at 550,  cook time was 7 minutes,  crust was quite crispy at the rim,  might need to back the cook time down to 5 or 6 minutes and finish the top on a high rack???  All in all,  I was pleased with the results,  and will try again.  wish I had some pics for you,  but camera was dead to the world.  Oh,  I made a plain pepperoni,  using Stella whole milk mozzarella,  a ham, pineapple and bacon with the same stella cheese,  and a margarita with a Bel Giosio fresh mozzarella ball.  My sauce is simple(though some may argue that),  a can of Cento DOP San Marzano's with the seeds rinsed out of them,  placed into a hand processor with approximately heaping 1/2 tsp each of basil and marjoram,  1/8 to 1/4 tsp of garlic powder,  a few pinches of onion powder, coarse ground sea salt, and a generous squirt of honey.   
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:47:05 AM by anton-luigi »

Offline 2112

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2009, 03:45:33 PM »
anton-luigi,

The Dakota Mill high protein bread flour you speak of is 12.6% protein + or - .2

I have used it a lot and seems to work well with my room temp doughs.

Have a good one.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left!

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2009, 11:54:25 PM »
Actually I called there today,  the gentleman I spoke to told me that the "premium bread" flour I used was at 13 %,  and their pizza/tortilla flour was between 13 and 13.5%. On a side note,  I purchased 6 lbs of Sir Lancelot online today.  Next on the list is some Caputo as my LBE is nearing completion.  I'd hate to post pics right now,  as I used an old ugly weber kettle grill,  and my heat source is a 250,000 BTU construction heater,  a bit of overkill,  but definitely able to dial it back to proper temps.  just need a good IR thermometer to get started.


Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2009, 05:00:36 AM »
I hope I can get some advice on the following.

I'm currently using the follow recipe:

Flour (100%):
Water (64.45%):
IDY (0.02%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (166.22%):
422.18 g  |  14.89 oz | 0.93 lbs
272.09 g  |  9.6 oz | 0.6 lbs
0.08 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.03 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
7.39 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.17 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
701.74 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs | TF = 0.091

The flour is Gold Medal Best for Bread. The problem I'm having is that dough is a little bit more on the elastic side than I would like after 24 hours from making it. After 19 hours fermentation at 75 F, I take the dough out for punching down and then shaping into a tight ball. At this time the dough is nice and extensible but after 5 hours from the reshaping, it loses this extensibility. So I'm wondering if I should increase the IDY % or if my punch&shape has to do a lot with this problem.

Saad

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2009, 07:31:28 PM »
I guess I'd be looking at my kneading process to begin with( how long is your knead?  and what is you final dough temp when done with the knead?)  I dont have a tremendous amount of experience with this,  as I basically started out using a sourdo.com Ischia or Camaldoli starter.   Hopefully Pete-zza will chime in on this.  I have never done a bulk ferment,  I always ball first myself.  Are you getting that much rise after 19 hrs that it requires a punch down???

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2009, 11:56:41 AM »
Thanks for jumping in luigi  :D

actually I only changed one thing that produced the dough I'm looking for. I used to start with ice-cold water and I changed that to cold water just out of the fridge. This increased the fermentation of the dough and resulted in a nicely extensible dough at bake time.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2009, 01:27:49 PM »
For those who are interested, there are a couple good examples of the use of 24-hour room-temperature fermentations at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9029.0.html and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9053.msg78254/boardseen.html#new.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2009, 10:37:58 AM »
Peter, I'd love to try this dough, but I can't get past one thing, the amount of yeast...
0.03 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.01 tsp | 0 tbsp

I think that says a 100th of a teaspoon, a tenth of a tenth!? I have enough trouble measuring a tenth of a teaspoon, but it's doable. My scale won't register a .03 of a gram, so my question would be how many grains of IDY is in a tenth of a tenth of a teaspoon. Seems counting grains is the only solution, lol.

Now If I made 10 balls of this I could use a 10th of a teaspoon, but I don't have that many friends.  :(

ps, Saad, I have to get my eyes checked.
Thanks for jumping in luigi  :D

I read that as "Thanks for jumping in linguine".
 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 10:58:13 AM by NY pizzastriver »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2009, 11:51:52 AM »
Jim,

There was actually a series of posts on this subject, starting at Reply 39 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg77237.html#msg77237. I'm sure that there are people who will be discouraged from trying the basic recipe because of a lack of a means to measure out minuscule amounts of yeast. Or else, the math to do it will scare them off. I recently ran a dough formulation off of the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html in which I used 1/256 teaspoon of IDY. That is one quarter of a "drop" (1/64 t.) mini measuring spoon. The only number that showed up for the IDY in the formulation table was 0.01 gram of IDY. The other numbers were too small and were eaten up by the rounding algorithm of the tool. They all showed up as zeros.

According to King Arthur, one gram of dry yeast contains about 25 billion cells. If I got my math right, I estimate that 1/256 teaspoon of dry yeast contains about 294 million cells. I did not try to confirm that number. At one cell per second, and doing nothing else, I estimated that it would take me about 9 1/3 years to count out the 294 million cells. I just couldn't spare the time.

I took a photo, which is shown below, to show you what 1/256 teaspoon of IDY looks like. The good news is that using yeast at the rate of 1/256 teaspoon per pizza, a one-pound bag of yeast will allow you to make about 38,550 pizzas. Of course, it will be less if you splurge and use 1/64 t. (about 9,637 pizzas). In tough economic times like these where every penny counts, that is nothing to sneeze at (just don't sneeze when you measure out the yeast).

Peter


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2009, 12:14:18 PM »
Lol, I'll try not to sneeze.

Sounds like it's too hard to measure, so as far as low yeast goes this is as low as I go!
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.0.html

I edited your pic, this is what I come up with using my "J's uber-yeast-cell-calculating-formulation-tool". It's an unreliable tool at best, as it doesn't really figure anything, so yours might be better.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2009, 01:22:37 PM »
Jim, I recommend that you first pick an IDY % that is suitable for your room temperature. As you see, Pete used IDY (0.012%) for a room temp of 80-82 F while I used 0.02% for a 75 F room temp.

Then you can put together your recipe starting from the smallest IDY amount that you can measure easily. For example, I started with 1/32 tsp as I found it easy to measure. The smallest I have is 1/8 tsp, so I use that and then split the quantity into 4 to get 1/32 tsp. Then I divide 1/32 by 0.33 to get 0.0947 g. Divide the result by the IDY % and you get the flour in g. For my recipe, that resulted in an 18" pizza  ;D

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2009, 04:41:30 PM »
Having measured out 1/256 teaspoon of IDY for purposes of the photo at Reply 55 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78615.html#msg78615, and not wanting to be wasteful, I decided to use that 1/256 teaspoon of IDY to make a pizza—in this case, a 14” pizza. With that small amount of yeast, I though that I might be able to get about 48 hours of room temperature fermentation, or about double what I originally achieved.

For purposes of the latest experiment, I used the same basic dough formulation as recited in the opening post of this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html but with a few modifications. First, as noted above, I used 1/256 teaspoon of IDY, which is considerably less than what I originally used. Second, I decided to use King Arthur bread flour instead of KA all-purpose flour to see if that would be a better choice, especially for a NY style. Third, I used a hydration of 57%, which is 5% less than the rated absorption value of the KABF. This is the same approach as I used for the all-purpose dough in the opening post. The only other difference is that the temperature of the water I used for the latest experiment was about 48 degrees F, or about 3 degrees F higher than the 45 degrees F I originally used.

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.00449%):
Salt (1.50%):
Total (158.50449%):
265.49 g  |  9.36 oz | 0.59 lbs
151.33 g  |  5.34 oz | 0.33 lbs
0.01 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
3.98 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
420.81 g | 14.84 oz | 0.93 lbs | TF = 0.096425
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.095; for a 14” pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Primarily for the benefit of NY pizzastriver (Jim), I modified the output of the expanded dough calculator as given above to offer more complete data, as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.00449%):
Salt (1.50%):
Total (158.50449%):
265.49 g  |  9.36 oz | 0.59 lbs
151.33 g  |  5.34 oz | 0.33 lbs
0.0117652 g | 0.0004149 oz | 0 lbs | 1/256 tsp | 0 tbsp
3.98 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
420.81 g | 14.84 oz | 0.93 lbs | TF = 0.096425
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.095; for a 14” pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I prepared the dough almost exactly in the same manner as previously described in the opening post, including the sequencing of ingredients and mixer speeds and times. The finished dough temperature was 80.7 degrees F. The room temperature at which the dough was allowed to ferment was around 82 degrees F. To monitor the expansion of the dough, I used the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. The first surprise was that the dough, even with only 1/256 teaspoon of IDY, rose much faster than I expected. Based on the increased spacing between the two poppy seeds, the dough doubled in volume in almost exactly 24 hours. Rather than using the dough at that point to make a pizza, which I believe was entirely possible, and instead of punching the dough down and letting it ferment for another 24 hours at room temperature, as I originally intended, I decided instead to modify the experiment by putting the dough into the refrigerator for the next 24 hours. I left the dough ball in its container and placed it into the refrigerator, without punching it down or doing anything else to it.

After the second 24-hour period of cold fermentation, I noticed that the dough had not changed volumetrically in any way as a result of putting it into the refrigerator. I let the dough ball sit at room temperature to warm up, for about an hour. The dough was then shaped and stretched into a 14” skin. The dough was extensible but I had no problems whatsoever in shaping and stretching the skin out to size. After dressing the pizza, it was baked in the same manner as described in the opening post.

The photos below show the finished pizza. It was very good. Although the finished crust was a bit lighter in color than the original pizza and with less oven spring, it was chewy and tasty and representative of a typical NY style pizza. As noted above, I used KABF instead of KAAP. I did not detect any advantage to using the KABF. As far as I am concerned, either type of flour can be used and the results should be equally good. Next time, I might be inclined to add a bit of sugar to the dough to get increased crust color development if I decide to ferment the dough beyond 24 hours.

So, the answer is, yes, it is possible to make a very good room-temperature fermented dough/pizza using only 1/256 teaspoon of IDY. Also, it is possible to hold the dough in “animated suspension” by putting it into the refrigerator after the initial 24 hours or room-temperature fermentation. This is a useful feature for those times where we find it necessary to delay things because of scheduling conflicts.

The next time I attempt a long room temperature fermentation along the lines discussed in this thread, I think I will cut the yeast in half, to 1/512 teaspoon of IDY, and see what happens.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 05:00:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2009, 04:45:33 PM »
And some slice pics...

Peter


 

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