Author Topic: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough  (Read 54253 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2009, 07:38:37 PM »
Peter,  I am glad you were curious enough to perform the Caputo test. 

Marc,

All of this has been a pleasant distraction, and, thanks to you for initiating the effort, I have learned a lot--much more than I expected. I have been eating reheated leftover slices of the last two pizzas and they are quite satisfying. It will be interesting to see how the "no commercial yeast" method works as the weather turns cool. Maybe then we will have to add some commercial yeast to keep the doughs within the 24-hour room temperature fermentation window.

Peter


Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2009, 08:37:51 PM »
Quote from: Pete-zza
But I am pretty sure that Tom said that another way to increase the starch damage was to mix some of the flour into boiling water.

This will indeed also increase the starch damage. So much so that the change in texture will be immediately apparent. But it will probably also kill the source of your wild yeast. I'm pretty sure that the wild yeast comes packaged in the flour bag. I used to irradiate flour before trying to capture wild yeast. And the first thing that I noticed is that flour right out of the bag will always make a sourdough that rises. But you can often leave irradiated flour (which has killed any yeast that was in the flour) and water mix out for a long, long time @ 30C and still not get any rise.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2009, 08:51:59 PM »
pacoast,

My memory on this is hazy, especially since I never pursued Tom's suggestion, but I believe that only a part of the formula flour would be put in boiling water (presumably part of the formula water), not all of it. I will see if I can find anything further on this matter.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #103 on: August 23, 2009, 12:24:41 PM »
I will see if I can find anything further on this matter.

I did a fairly extensive Google search on this subject and the only place I could find that discussed mixing flour into boiling water to increase the starch damage is at page 103 of the book What's with Fiber. You can use the search feature or use the LOOK INSIDE feature at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159120111X/?tag=pizzamaking-20 to view page 103 of the book. I can't copy and paste page 103, but it basically discusses making a "mash" of part of the flour and boiling water to increase the starch damage. Apparently the mash works well with whole grain doughs, which is in keeping with the overarching theme of the book to improve one's health.

Peter

Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2009, 05:42:17 PM »
Thanks Peter. Here's the excerpt -

Quote
Fortunately, there is no need for the miller to devise a way to produce enough damaged starch in flours. When soft wheats were more generally used in Western Europe for making breads, bakers were damaging the starch by first making a mash from a portion of the flour, a technique that fell from favor with the widespread use of refined flour and baker's yeast. Beermakers know about mashing grains with enzyme-active malt. The mash lasts one to three hours and the temperature is usually 60-70įC (140-158įF). Enzymes such as alpha-amylase and phytase are sped up, while beta-amylase and other enzymes are deactivated. Amylase can convert starch into simple sugars and sweet-tasting oligosacchardies that can be selectively used by the sourdough bacteria and yeasts. Phytase breaks down phytic acid into inositol and phosphate, and releases minerals. Making this mash by adding boiling water to flour, damages the starch too, so it is not necessary for the milling process to be the source of the adequate damaged starch. The improvement in the bread by using a mash is particularly exciting for wholegrain breadmaking. Damaged starch, from the mash, can make a dough stiff enough to hold all the water required to fully hydrate the bran fiber and all the soluble fiber, and still stand up as a shaped bread. fully hydrated bran will be so soft that it can no longer be accused of piercing, and ruining, the gluten structure of the bread.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #105 on: August 23, 2009, 07:48:36 PM »
pacoast,

Thank you for posting the excerpt.

During my Google search, I learned that flours milled in the U.S., whether soft/hard or spring/winter wheat flour, have starch damage that falls in the general range of 6-10%. By contrast, flours milled from soft wheat grains, which appears to cover many European flours, tend to have starch damage that falls in the range of 4-6%.

Peter

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2009, 08:39:25 AM »
Peter Reinhart, in his book Whole Grain Breads, at pages 54-55 suggests using a mash.  He doesn't discuss damaged starch, but does suggest limiting the temperature to 165 F (74 C) and a 250% hydration.  While this is integral to his whole grain method, he seems to suggest care as too much mash seems to make the crumb gummy.

Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2009, 04:14:50 PM »
This is the passage that UnConundrum is referring to:

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Mashes and Scalds

If the two most important pieces of the whole grain bread puzzle are the starter, or preferment, and the soaker, the third piece of the puzzle, in some of the breads, is a mash, a concoction made of scaled, partially gelatinized grain. Historically, grain mashes were used in both baking and brewing as a medium for growing yeast and also for extracting flavor from the grain. When starches are gelatinized by scalding, they are much more welcoming to enzymes. Brewers have made use of this knowledge to make their sweet work, the grain-based tea that later becomes beer. The problem with scalding the grains, from the bread making perspective, is that most enzymes cannot survive temperatures in excess of 170įF, and some enzymes become denatured at even cooler temperatures.

[...] but in all cases the purpose was the same; to create a medium in which microorganisms, especially yeast, could thrive and propagate. When these mashes were used as the starters for breads, they introduced a large proportion of gelatinized starch to the final dough, and this is the unique flavor and texture that I want to capture in the mash breads in this book.

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Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2009, 03:19:00 AM »

You might also be interested in knowing that you can make your own diastatic malt. Usually barley is used, mainly because of its origins in beer making but also because it is cheaper than other grains, but wheat berries can also be used to make diastatic malt. You can read how to do this at http://www.radicalfrugality.info/homemade-diastatic-malt.html :chef:. Isn't science wonderful :-D?

Peter

Comparing the cost of malt online to the coolness of making it...I'll just buy it and tell others I made it ;D But seriously, what would be the advantage of using diastatic malt over sugar? Would the malt produce long fermentation time effects in a shorter time?

Saad


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2009, 11:25:51 AM »
Saad,

Those are excellent questions. I suppose that it is possible to use ordinary table sugar (sucrose) to increase the sugar content of the dough and achieve certain performance characteristics but I don't know how you would assess the amount of sugar, or the timing of its use, to produce the same results as using diastatic malt. It is important to keep in mind that diastatic malt is not intended as a sugar substitute even though its use results in natural sugar production. It is added by the miller or baker in order to increase the enzymes in the flour that convert damaged starch to simple sugars. Those simple sugars can then be fermented by the yeast to produce carbon dioxide and alcohol and to be available at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. As such, the diastatic malt should perform at the same time and at the same rate as the preexisting enzymes (alpha-amylase) in the flour. If the recipe used by the baker calls for table sugar, or the baker deems the use of table sugar to be desirable, for example, for added sweetness in the finished product, that decision is left entirely to the baker.

As you might suspect, diastatic malts that are added to the flour by the miller are in dry form. By itself, and unlike nondiastatic malts, and especially their liquid form, a dry diastatic malt does not add much in the way of flavor or color or texture of the finished crust. For that, you would have to use a liquid form of the diastatic malt. However, the diastatic malt does improve dough handling by helping modify, or relax, the gluten in the flour. It is also fairly rich in vitamins and other nutritional components. By contrast, sucrose is a complex sugar with little or no nutritional value (as you will note if you look at the labeling information on a bag of sugar). Moreover, before it can be used as food by the yeast, and to be used most effectively in the Maillard reactions for crust coloration purposes, the sugar has to be converted to simple, or reducing, sugars. How long that will take depends to a great extent on the dough formulation and the fermentation method used (room temperature or cold fermentation). Tom Lehmann discusses the timing issue of the use of sugar, and when it is most efficacious for crust coloration purposes, in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26890#26890. As that post notes, there are enough natural sugars in a dough to support a fairly long fermentation period. That is primarily a function of the alpha-enzyme activity in the dough. Beyond that, the baker can add more sugar, whether in the form of table sugar, honey, maple sugar, etc., if desired or deemed necessary.

Peter

 

« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:28:38 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2009, 02:13:21 PM »
I read your reply and Tom's also many times. It seems that added sugar remains present in the dough through out the fermentation process and all the way to the end to contribute to to crust coloration. What confuses me is how come it's not consumed in the initial fermentation stages as it's ready food for the yeast where as starch break-down is still in process. I guess that the sugar level is in excess of what the yeast can consume until the starch break-down can manifest. Thus, maintaining excess levels of sugar until bake time which will contribute to color and sweetness.

As for the diastatic malt, is more like a way of supporting the organic sugar production from starch by means of accelerating the dough maturation. Wouldn't there be excess sugar? Hmmm....but I can see that if we add both; sugar and diastatic malt, we can achieve a sweeter tasting crust.

Very interesting stuff...

Saad
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 02:18:34 PM by s00da »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #111 on: August 28, 2009, 03:09:26 PM »
Saad,

If you go down a few PMQ Think Tank posts from the one I gave you in my last post, to Tom's further post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26952&sid=63830572bc4bf7c74911a35e3db0e4b2#26952, you will see why sucrose does not immediately participate in the fermentation process. Since it is not a simple sugar, it has to be converted to a form usable by the yeast. This action is discussed in the following excerpt from the theartisan.net website:

Sugar Utilization

Yeast exhibits a variable preference for different sugars. It readily assimilates four sugars, namely, sucrose (after hydrolysis to glucose and fructose by yeast invertase or sucrase), glucose, fructose, and maltose (after hydrolysis to glucose by yeast maltase). In yeasted doughs, an increase in maltose occurs during the first stages of fermentation, until the initial supply of glucose and fructose is exhausted, after which the maltose content gradually declines. Studies of the preferential utilization of sugars by yeast are documented in the literature, but this is not a topic for this discussion.
(Emphasis mine)

Doughs prepared only from flour, water, yeast and salt will initially contain only about 0.5% of glucose and fructose derived from the flour. This is adequate to start fermentation and to activate the yeasts adaptive malto-zymase system that is responsible for maltose fermentation. Fermentation is sustained by the action of a- and beta-amylases of flour that convert the susceptible damaged starch granules into maltose. Damaged starch results from milling and its level is normally much higher in hard wheat flours than in soft wheat flours.

There is a point, usually when the dough has reached severe overfermentation, where the sugar levels become so low as to no longer support normal yeast cellular reproductive activity. This is more likely to occur where the amount of formula yeast used is high and has consumed all or almost all of the available sugars, both natural and added. I didn't mention it earlier but I have read that when diastatic malt is used, one can reduce the amount of yeast in the dough formulation. Apparently this keeps everything in better balance in terms of dough development/maturation and sugar levels. It is also sometimes suggested that the formula sugar, if any, be reduced.

Peter

« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:15:09 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2009, 04:58:44 PM »
Amazing literature Pete, thanks a lot! From what Tom is saying, it seems that using honey is a better choice than sugar although I'm not a fan of using either. Regarding substituting olive oil with butter, have you ever tested that?

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2009, 05:55:43 PM »
Saad,

As a generalization, I don't necessarily think that honey is preferable to table sugar (sucrose). I think it depends on the what you are trying to accomplish. For example, one of the advantages of honey over sugar is for short-term, or "emergency", doughs where the fermentation period is too short for the table sugar to be adequately converted to simple sugars. An example of where I took advantage of the simple sugars in honey is the dough that I described at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. The dough in that case was only a 2-hour dough but I believe that it could have gone several hours more while retaining good crust coloration. I have seen many doughs loaded with table sugar but with poor crust coloration after a short period of fermentation (e.g., a few hours), apparently because of insufficient time to convert the sugar to simple sugars. Often the crust coloration is more from the protein in the flour used. For longer periods of fermentation, such as cold fermentation over a few days, I think that both honey and sugar will work well.

As the experiments in this thread have demonstrated, there is no need to add any sugar to a dough that is to be fermented at room temperature for long period (e.g., for a day or so). However, I think we are on the cusp and that perhaps a bit of sugar in the dough might help produce improved crust coloration. I hope at some point to run an experiment using sugar in some form in the dough to see if that is the case. While I am at it, I might also add some oil.

I'm sure that I have substituted butter for oil in some dough at some point but my recollection is that I did not see sufficient merit to use butter more frequently. I might also add that Tom Lehmann is quite fond of talking about butter in the same breath as honey, usually in the context of using whole wheat flour, as you will see from his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=46829#46829, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34627#34627 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34629#34629.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #114 on: August 29, 2009, 08:16:18 AM »
I would just like to point out something that might help those who are not that familiar with the term-pair "reducing sugar" since it represents an important bridge between biology (i.e. yeast activity) and thermodynamics (i.e. baking).  As Peter pointed out, sucrose is not a simple sugar (monosaccharide) and it also isn't a reducing sugar (reacts to form an aldehyde or ketone).  A common mistake people make is assuming that reducing sugars are in fact simple sugars.  Many times they are, but that's a gross generalization.  Maltose for instance is a reducing sugar, but it isn't a simple sugar.  Because yeast and other organisms in this world get their energy from chemical reactions, while baking (and cooking) is essentially a process whereby chemical reactions alter the food's composition and structure, it is probably more productive to talk about sugars in terms of their reducibility (reaction potential), instead of their simplicity.

The general rule that I wanted people to think about is: The more a molecule reacts in the oven, where browning is usually of concern, the more potential energy it can supply an organism.  The organism must be genetically predisposed for a certain metabolic pathway to utilize a specific reducing agent, but most organisms have adapted to using sugars.  So when dealing with adding sugars to a dough, consider their reducibility.  What works for the yeast will work for your browning.  Even proteins that can be metabolized are often the same as those that contribute to browning.  It's all driven by the same thermodynamics with few exceptions, just at different energy levels.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #115 on: August 29, 2009, 10:32:01 AM »
November,

Thank you for the clarification. As a non-chemist, I am sure that somewhere along the way I have confused simple sugars with reducing sugars. However, now that I think back, my recollection is that simple sugars seem to be discussed in the context of sugars that yeast uses as food, and that reducing sugars seem to be discussed in the context of crust coloration, for example, the reaction between reducing sugars and protein (amino acids) for Maillard reactions, in the presence of heat.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #116 on: August 29, 2009, 10:54:54 AM »
I do not think that I have understood what November posted ;D but I do appreciate that he posts something that will keep me thinking for a while. I hope I can translate it to easier terms specially if it will be useful for my pizza journey.

Saad
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 10:56:41 AM by s00da »


Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #117 on: August 29, 2009, 01:52:03 PM »
These are common reducing sugars. Our crust browning is largely a Maillard reaction, i.e., the reaction of a reducing sugar & amino acid under heat.
glucose  -  'grape/corn sugar'
fructose  -  e.g. honey
lactose  -  'milk sugar'
maltose  -  'malt sugar'
arabinose  -  'apple sugar'
glyceraldehyde  -  intermediate product of carbohydrate metabolism



edit to correct mischaracterization of maltose
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 05:35:53 PM by pacoast »

Offline November

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #118 on: August 29, 2009, 02:35:51 PM »
Peter,

However, now that I think back, my recollection is that simple sugars seem to be discussed in the context of sugars that yeast uses as food,

That's a difficult context for simple sugars to be placed in.  "Simple sugar" is just a layman's term for monosaccharide, or single molecular unit that cannot be further hydrolyzed.  When referring to what an organism "uses as food", one might have to pay more attention to the definition of food.  I can eat starch as "food" but my cells can't metabolize starch until it's broken down into glucose.  There are a lot of substances yeast uses as food that it can't metabolize directly either.  Alternately, there are simple sugars certain yeast can't use as food.  That's why I think it could be confusing to use "simple" sugars in the context of yeast food.  It seems to me that it would be much easier to say "sugars" and leave off the "simple."  Maybe then people can spend less time consulting the dictionary.  ;D

pacoast,

Why did you associate milk with maltose?  Maltose is found in germinating grains.  Are you thinking of malted milk?  That's just malted barley added to milk.


Offline pacoast

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #119 on: August 29, 2009, 05:38:50 PM »
Why did you associate milk with maltose?

Typo. I don't always take sufficient time to proofread what I've typed. Thanks for catching the error.

.

Offline s00da

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #120 on: August 29, 2009, 07:01:01 PM »
Ok, I'm back to subject  ;D

Since I have no bread flour (I hope I will tomorrow), I attempted my first Sicilian using AP flour, it's local and it has less gluten than American AP flour. So it's close to cake flour but does have some bran and not 100% white. I'm posting it here cuz I used the Ischia instead of commercial yeast with room temperature fermentation. In the below recipe, the flour is a (85% AP flour + 15% semolina).

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (70.13%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (5%):
Total (177.13%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Total:

380.28 g  |  13.41 oz | 0.84 lbs
266.69 g  |  9.41 oz | 0.59 lbs
7.61 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.58 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
19.01 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.23 tsp | 1.41 tbsp
673.6 g | 23.76 oz | 1.49 lbs | TF = 0.132
 
 
2.88 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs
3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs

 
377.4 g | 13.31 oz | 0.83 lbs
263.57 g | 9.3 oz | 0.58 lbs
7.61 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.58 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs
19.01 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.23 tsp | 1.41 tbsp
673.6 g | 23.76 oz | 1.49 lbs  | TF = 0.132

Mixing the dough was very simple since it's easy to develop gluten with the type of flour I used. In sequence, room temp. water (75 F), dissolve salt, Ischia, all flour mix. I mixed it with the beater for about 2 minutes on slow to combine the ingredients. Then I switch to the c-hook and kneaded the dough on max speed. Within 3 minutes the gluten started developing and the dough is no more stuck to the bottom of the bowl. I then rested the dough for 5 minutes while I prepared an oiled plastic container. I added the oil and resumed mixing on slow and assisted mixing the oil in. Then back on max speed for 3 more minutes. By the end, the dough looked very smooth. I shaped it into a kind-of ball and into the container.

The dough fermented for 19 hours at 75 F. At the 19th hour, the dough expanded to more than double. It seems the Ischia amount needs to be reduced. I transferred the dough to an oiled 15"x12" stainless steel pan and spreading the dough was very easy. I deflated the dough and oiled the top lightly in the pan and covered it. To avoid over-proofing, I placed it in a room that I just noticed today having a lower temperature than the rest of the house. It was 69 F. By the 24th hour, the dough has risen again nicely. I preheated the oven to 450F. I docked the dough with my fingers so it doesn't create large bubbles. It went into the middle rack of the oven naked for 5 minutes, I thought this would give a good oven spring and stiffen the crust before the toppings go on top. I took it out and applied the sauce, fresh mozzarella, dried basil and sea salt/garlic mix. It went back into the oven for 10 minutes and by the end, the mozzarella was melted but not cooked yet and the sauce was drying at the edge. There was also some excessive moisture released into the center. I took it out and applied more sauce (I don't like dry sauce). I also treated it with a generous sprinkling of grana padano and some low moisture/part skimmed mozzarella for contrast with the extra sauce I applied. It then went into the oven for 6 more minutes. That's a total of 21 minutes baking time. At the end, it again received some more grana padano.

The pizza was a winner for my kids because of the softness of the flour I used. I did like the texture the semolina added but I think the 24 hours  room temp fermentation didn't help this AP flour to develop any flavor. Also, I think it needed 5 more minutes of baking as the bottom was not uniformly brown. The bottom of the edges had some charring-like spots and nice flavor that I wished was all over the pie, then I would've really liked it!

I couldn't do much about the texture of the crumb with this AP flour as I wanted more voids. Maybe next time I will let the dough bake more while it's still naked, it might develop more oven spring.

Saad
P.S. Pete I just noticed this post doesn't serve the purpose of the thread much and you can move it to the Sicilian section if you think it's more suitable there.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 07:10:33 PM by s00da »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #121 on: August 30, 2009, 03:42:21 PM »
Following up on my recent post in this thread at Reply 113 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg79195.html#msg79195, I decided to make another dough, also without commercial yeast or natural starter (that is, a wild yeast dough), but with oil and a form of sugar. For this experiment, I decided to modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. For the flour, I used King Arthur bread flour, and for the sugar I decided to use the Classic Ovaltine Malt. I have been wanting for some time to try the Ovaltine so I decided this was as good a time as any. The ingredients that go into the Classic Ovaltine Malt can be seen at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8796.msg76560.html#msg76560, where another member, ThePizzaBiatch, discussed the results he achieved using the Classic Ovaltine Malt. I normally would use 1% sugar for a Lehmann dough that is to be fermented for a few days (a cold fermentation), but I decided to use 1.33% Classic Ovaltine Malt since, according to the Classic Ovaltine Malt nutrition information, that product is essentially two thirds sugar.

The dough formulation I ended up with, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, was as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Classic Ovaltine Malt (1.33%):
Total (166.08%):
266.72 g  |  9.41 oz | 0.59 lbs
165.36 g  |  5.83 oz | 0.36 lbs
4.67 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
3.55 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.2.03 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
442.96 g | 15.62 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.10; dough is for a single 14Ē pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The dough was prepared in essentially the same manner as previously described, except that the Classic Ovaltine Malt was dissolved in the water at the same time as the salt. The Classic Ovaltine Malt is fairly dark in color, and that color tinted the dough a light brown as a result. The water temperature I used was 42.7 degrees F. The finished dough temperature was 78.8 degrees F. To monitor the expansion of the dough during its fermentation, I used the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html.

I didnít know what to expect in terms of the fermentation of the dough. In particular, I wondered what effect the Classsic Ovaltine Malt, with 15 different ingredients, would have on the wild yeast in the dough (and also on the taste, color and texture of the finished crust). I also wondered what effect, if any, the oil would have on the wild yeast. Well, the answer started to emerge after 24 hours of fermentation at a room temperature in the range of 80-83 degrees F. Essentially nothing happened. I had been watching the dough over a good part of the 24-hour period and it was like watching paint dry. I did not see any hint of fermentation such as the tiny bubbles that typically form in a dough at the sides and bottom of the storage container. The spacing of the poppy seeds suggested that the dough had risen by about 9.7%, but it didnít translate into a palpable fermentation to the naked eye. At 30 hours, the spacing of the poppy seeds widened a bit, suggesting signs of life. According to the spacing of the two poppy seeds, the dough had expanded by about 20%. The dough looked alive and healthy and I also started for the first time to detect tiny fermentation bubbles at the sides of the storage container. Finally, after 36 hours, things had started to pop, and the dough expansion reached 68.5%. By 38 hours, the dough had doubled in volume. Since I wasnít ready to make pizza at that time (it was 7:30 in the morning), I put the dough, untouched and still in its container, into the refrigerator for another 4 hours or so, to be ready to use for lunch.

The dough was handled and shaped in the same manner as previously described. The dough was very soft out of its storage container, with a profusion of fermentation bubbles, and it was very extensible as I worked with it on my bench. To improve the handling of the dough, I removed it from the refrigerator about a half hour before I was ready to shape and stretch it out to size (14Ē). To minimize sticking to my peel, I used semolina flour on the peel. The pizza was dressed and baked in the same manner as previously described.

The photos below show the finished pizza. Overall, I thought the pizza was very good. It had a decided artisanal quality to it, with a rim that was crispy and crunchy like an artisan bread and with artisanal bread flavors. There was some bottom crust crispiness but otherwise the crumb and the rest of the crust were soft and chewy. The crust flavors and texture were very good but I detected some unfamiliar flavor components that perhaps came from using the Classic Ovaltine Malt. I havenít yet decided if I like those flavor components. I will have to make another dough using just plain table sugar, or possibly honey. I will also have a chance to further assess the crust flavors when I reheat the leftover slices. But, whatever the final results, the experiment demonstrated that it is possible to ferment a "wild yeast only" dough at a fairly elevated room temperature for better than 35 hours and end up with a pretty good pizza.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #122 on: August 30, 2009, 03:46:40 PM »
And for some slice pics....

Peter

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #123 on: August 30, 2009, 11:49:10 PM »
I have been wanting for some time to try the Ovaltine so I decided this was as good a time as any. The ingredients that go into the Classic Ovaltine Malt can be seen at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8796.msg76560.html#msg76560, where another member, ThePizzaBiatch, discussed the results he achieved using the Classic Ovaltine Malt.

I've been using between 1.4% and 2.0% Ovaltine Classic Malt Mix in my doughs for the last couple months, primarily because I've had the Ovaltine mix sitting in my cupboard for who knows how long (probably years), and that's not enough data for me to clear it as a beverage.  I have found the results satisfactory.

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Re: How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough
« Reply #124 on: February 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM »
Last summer, in the middle of August, member widespreadpizza (Marc) and I both made pizzas using room-temperature fermented doughs that comprised only flour, water and salt. No commercial yeast and no starter were used. Marcís dough was leavened by wild New Hampshire yeast and mine was pretty much contemporaneously leavened by wild Texas yeast. It took Marcís dough about 21 hours to double at room temperature and mine took about 30 hours to reach a double. Marcís finished pizza, which was baked in his wood fired oven, can be seen in Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78756.html#msg78756. My pizza, which was baked in my standard home oven, is shown in Replies 84 and 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78779.html#msg78779. Our success led me to wonder how a winter version of my dough might turn out. So, over the last three days I made another room temperature fermented dough with only flour, water and salt. The dough formulation was the same one that I posted in Reply 84 referenced above, specifically:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
Salt (1.50%):
Total (158.5%):
265.5 g  |  9.36 oz | 0.59 lbs
151.33 g  |  5.34 oz | 0.33 lbs
3.98 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
420.81 g | 14.84 oz | 0.93 lbs | TF = 0.096425
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.095; for 14Ē pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I prepared the dough in the same manner as the summer version. I simply placed the formula water in my mixer bowl, added the salt and stirred it to dissolve in the water. The water had been temperature adjusted to 100 degrees F in order to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F, which I deemed necessary to start the fermentation process. Using the flat beater attachment and the stir speed of my KitchenAid stand mixer, I gradually added the flour to the water in the bowl and mixed it until the flour could no longer be hydrated, about two minutes. There was some loose flour in the bottom of the bowl, which I simply incorporated into the dough mass by hand, about another minute or so. I then switched to the C-hook, and with the mixer at speed 2, I kneaded the dough for 5-6 minutes. With a hydration of 57%, the dough was a bit on the stiff side but, as previously described, that hydration level was selected to be on the lower side to compensate for the wetness of the dough that I had experienced with the summer version after the long period of room temperature fermentation.

After shaping the dough into a round ball, I lightly oiled it and placed it into a one-quart Pyrex glass bowl and placed two poppy seeds at the top center part of the dough ball, in accordance with the poppy seed method described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. After placing the lid on the bowl, I set the bowl aside on a countertop in my kitchen. At the time, the room temperature was around 63 degrees F. As it so happens, that is a temperature that is widely regarded as optimal for a room temperature fermented dough. The actual finished dough temperature was 75 degrees F.

The dough rose very slowly over the next few days. It wasnít until about 72 hours of room temperature fermentation that the spacing of the poppy seeds indicated that the dough had doubled in volume. (As an aside, based on the poppy seed spacing, the dough had increased by 30% after the first day, and by 81% after the second day.) There was no dramatic visible expansion of the dough over the course of the three days of fermentation. It just gradually slumped and spread in the bowl. It also took on a gray cast, with spotting of the type I have observed before with doughs that are cold fermented for several days to a few weeks. The spotting was not particularly severe but it was clearly in evidence. There were very few fermentation bubbles--so few, in fact, that I wondered whether the dough had fermented at all, despite what the poppy seeds were trying to tell me. Over that three-day period, the outdoor temperature ranged from 28 degrees F to 50 degrees F. There was some fluctuation of my room temperature but it remained pretty much in the 63-65 degrees F range. Apparently that range is not conducive to dramatic volume expansion.

As with the summer version, I shaped the dough ball into a 14Ē skin. As I was doing this, I could see that the dough was, in fact, alive and a few bubbles presented themselves to compel me not to give up on the dough and to proceed further. Although the dough was not nearly as damp as the summer version and had little gluten degradation, and was overall of better physical quality, it was extensible. However, with ample dusting of my peel, the skin handled well. The pizza was dressed it pepperoni style and baked on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for an hour at around 525 degrees F. The pizza was baked on the pizza stone for six minutes, whereupon I moved it to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute or so to achieve additional top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. It was very similar to the summer version, with a fair amount of chewiness and some crispiness at the rim. It had the same artisanal characteristics of the summer version. Like the summer version, there was not a lot of oven spring. The crust flavors, however, were quite good.

I believe that with further experimentation it should be possible to improve upon the results I achieved. This was only my first winter version and, as is usually the case, the results suggest changes that might be made to future versions. For example, for the winter version, I think I would use a higher hydration. I might also make the skin a bit thicker. I also did not see the usual signs of overfermentation of the dough, even after 72 hours of room temperature fermentation. Itís possible that the dough could have held out for at least another day or so. But the latest experiment, taken together with the summer experiment, clearly demonstrates that is possible to make a simple and basic long, room-temperature fermented dough using only flour, water, salt, and whatever wild yeast is floating around when the dough is being prepared.

Peter


 

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