Author Topic: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)  (Read 7441 times)

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Offline Nabhan

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Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« on: November 06, 2008, 08:24:48 PM »
Hi guys,

Iīve been reading the threads since september. By the end of october, i was so excited about the sea of posibilities, that i built an wood fire oven in my beach house.

The "gran opening" will be next saturday. But, i couldnīt help but try several dough recipes at home.

Please, i need some opinions on the pics below. Here the recipe:

Flour (all purpose):500 gr
Water: 315 gr
Yeast: 7 gr
Salt: 15 gr
Sugar: 10 gr
Plus: One teaspoon of Non-Fat Dry Milk and One egg (whey)

I use the autolyse and led the dough sit at room temp for 20 hours.
After that, the 2 balls were very soft and tender, almost smushy...

So far, so good....but when i was trying to make the 12` pie, the dough was such a pain in the butt to work with. It was soooo hard to open.......

The taste was pretty good, and the crust have some nice bubbles and yet is crunch enough. One thing i dislike about was the crust color....i was looking for something more to the brown golden side......

Any comments?

Best Regards,

Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro / Brasil
Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil


Offline Nabhan

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 08:27:00 PM »
better pic....
Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 08:46:05 PM »
Igor,

To help me better understand what you did, please tell me:

1. What kind of yeast you used (e.g., fresh, active dry yeast or instant dry yeast).

2. The type of salt you used (e.g., table salt, sea salt or Kosher salt).

3. The size of the egg you used and whether by "whey" you mean the "white" of the egg.

4. Whether the nonfat dry milk was a supermarket brand (e.g., Carnation) or a baker's grade nonfat dry milk.

5. The room temperature at which the dough fermented.

6. Whether you re-kneaded or re-balled or re-worked the dough balls just before shaping into skins.

7. What pizza size you made and what oven temperature and bake time you used.

Peter

Offline Nabhan

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2008, 08:54:58 PM »
Hi Peter!

I was almost sure iīd get a fast reply from you....lol

well....let me see

1. What kind of yeast you used (e.g., fresh, active dry yeast or instant dry yeast).
I used Fleishmannīs IDY

2. The type of salt you used (e.g., table salt, sea salt or Kosher salt).
Table salt

3. The size of the egg you used and whether by "whey" you mean the "white" of the egg.
Yes, i mean the "white" of the egg....and it was a regular egg....a lil bit bigger than a table-tennis ball, but smalles than a pool ball....:)

4. Whether the nonfat dry milk was a supermarket brand (e.g., Carnation) or a baker's grade nonfat dry milk.
It was a supermarket Brand called Molico.

5. The room temperature at which the dough fermented.
The room was about 24C, and i left the dough in a plastic bowl covered with a wet towel

6. Whether you re-kneaded or re-balled or re-worked the dough balls just before shaping into skins.
I actually did both.....i quickly re-kneaded, re-balled and shaped right away

7. What pizza size you made and what oven temperature and bake time you used
I made a 12 inche pie and pre-heated my oven for about an hour at 280C and left the stone inside since the very first minute
Bake time was around 10 minutes


I was wondering what should be the mainly concerns when taking some receipe to a wood oven....

Thanks a lot, P!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 08:59:50 PM by Nabhan »
Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2008, 10:35:52 PM »
Igor,

Based on the information you provided, and assuming that I did the math correctly, this is what I got for your dough recipe, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

All-purpose Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (1.4%):
Salt (3%):
Sugar (2%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (0.28749%):
Egg Whites (6.6%):
Total (176.28749%):
Single Ball:
500 g  |  17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs
315 g  |  11.11 oz | 0.69 lbs
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.32 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.69 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.51 tsp | 0.84 tbsp
1.44 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
33 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
881.44 g | 31.09 oz | 1.94 lbs | TF = N/A
440.72 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs

In preparing the above table, I used the U.S. Carnation supermarket brand of nonfat dry milk as a proxy for your Molico product. For the egg whites, I assumed that the egg was a large egg.

In terms of my observations, my initial reaction is that I don't understand why you used the nonfat dry milk and the egg whites. At only 0.29% (of the weight of flour), the nonfat dry milk would appear to be far too little to make a difference. You would have to use a few percent or more to get the benefit of the nonfat dry milk (some calcium and protein, and lactose milk sugar to contribute to crust coloration). As for the egg whites, as noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,608.msg5616.html#msg5616, egg whites are used to create a crispy crust, which may or may not be what you are after. But, even then you would normally use less than 6.6%. I may be wrong, but I suspect that you were not after increased crispiness in the finished crust, as you might be if you were making a cracker-style crust, but rather that you were after a soft, open and airy crust.

The IDY, at 1.4%, is very high and at a level usually used to make a "short-time" or "emergency" dough, which is a dough that is made and used within about 2-3 hours. I am puzzled how the dough with that amount of yeast lasted 20 hours at room temperature (24 degrees C, or 75.2 degrees F) without overfermenting. The amount of yeast you used would consume all of the sugar released from the flour by enzyme (amylase) performance plus the 2% sugar you added. There would be little residual sugar to contribute to crust coloration but for a small amount of sugar (lactose) from the minuscule amount of nonfat dry milk. Based on what you have reported, I would expect that your dough would have been very wet and slack after 20 hours at 24 degrees C with 1.5% IDY, and very difficult to work with. You would need to re-knead the dough just to be able to work with it. But, re-kneading the dough causes the gluten matrix to become reoriented and results in a dough that is exessively elastic and very difficult, if not impossible, to open up without the dough springing back or tears forming in the skin. You would have to let the dough relax for a few to several hours to allow the gluten to relax again. Even then, the dough would be unlikely to have enough residual sugar to contribute to crust coloration. If I had to guess, I would say that the lack of sufficient residual sugar was responsible for the very light finished crust. It also did not help that you used all-purpose flour, which has a relatively low level of protein and, hence, contributes little to coloration of the finished crust. When such is the case, even a long bake time (10 minutes at 280 degreesC/536 degrees F in your case) will not make up for the loss of coloration due to low residual sugar levels.

As for the rest of the ingredients, it strikes me that the salt level, at 3% of the flour weight, is too high. It is common to use high salt levels with long, room-temperature fermented doughs in order to slow down the rate of fermentation but 3% seems to me to be too high. The high salt levels may strengthen the gluten structure and impede the action of protease enzymes to degrade the gluten structure, which are two of the roles of salt in the dough (in addition to taste), but I think you can use lower levels and still accomplish the desired results.

As a side note, your nominal hydration of 63% is actually increased due to the fact that 87.6% of the egg whites you used is water. Adding that water to the 63% hydration raises the hydration to 68.8%. That is high for an all-purpose flour, which typically has a rated absorption (at least in the U.S.) of around 60-61%, but if you were able to handle the dough at that effective hydration, then you should have been able to get good results.

Using the dough weight for a single dough ball and the 12" pizza size you mentioned, I calculated that the thickness factor for your dough formulation is 0.1374599. That is a value consistent with a typical American style pizza in the U.S., such as a Papa John's pizza, for example.

Peter





Offline Nabhan

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2008, 10:50:40 PM »
Pete...

I couldnīt thank you enough for your inputs....

PPJīs is my favorite....Iīve just got back from Orlando, FL and i almost had a stroke...LOL.....because i have to take every opportunity of having it......in 20 days i had something around 16 PPjīs delivered!!!!! :)

Well...getting back to the dough......

Did you know that every receipe in Brazil calls for 20gr of IDY for every kg of Flour???????????????

This weekend iīll follow your receipe of PPJīs in my wood stove......

But, let me ask you something....My beach house is 2 hours driving far from where i actually live. I usually travel friday night. And saturday night its pizza time. Which procedure would be the best for this lil time i have? (From friday night till saturday night)

And, concerning flour, APF its the most common around here....i just get some Durum and  3 kg of VWG, but i still havenīt figured out yet which would better for me due to the mentioned above....

We do not have 00 for selling....

Whatīs yout toughts about my flour issue? Which you thinkīd be better to achieve a good result in terms of color and to get a soft, open and airy colour?

It was everything so much easier when i was living at Albany, Ny.....lol

Best Regards,



Btw.....yes....it was VERY wet and slack! :)
Igor
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 11:00:25 PM by Nabhan »
Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2008, 11:39:41 PM »
Igor,

It is also common to see dough recipes in the U.S. that call for a lot of yeast. Many such recipes call for an entire packet (0.25 oz., or 7 g.) of dry yeast, and sometimes two such packets. However, in most cases, the dough is intended to be made and used within a few hours, usually after the dough has doubled one or two times. You would not use that amount of yeast for a 20-hour room-temperature fermented dough because of the types of problems I described (and you confirmed with your dough). You might be able to cold ferment a dough with a lot of yeast but, even then, the dough will ferment fast and not last more than about a day.

For a Papa John's dough to be made during the Friday night/Saturday night time frame and used to make a pizza on Saturday night, I think I would go with either the PJ clone dough formulation as set forth in Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59357.html#msg59357 or the PJ clone dough formulation as set forth in Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762. Both of these clone doughs are room-temperature fermented and could be made on Saturday morning and used to make pizza that evening. If you want to make the dough Friday night and use it to make pizza Saturday night, you could use the PJ dough clone formulation as set forth in Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60076.html#msg60076. That dough formulation is for a cold fermented dough. Of the three dough formulations, I would say that I found the first two (the ones in Replies 24 and 30) to be the closest to a real PJ pizza--not as close as the 5-day cold fermented PJ clone dough described in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, but still very good.

I realize that your ingredients are likely to be different than what I use in the U.S., but I will be interested nonetheless in your results and how they compare with the PJ pizzas you have had, either in Brazil or in the U.S.  With all the PJ pizzas you had during your Orlando visit, your palate will be sensitized to the real PJ pizzas and allow you to make pertinent observations.

Peter

Offline Nabhan

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2008, 07:01:40 AM »
P.,

Iīll follow your PJ clone receipe (replies 24 / 30)!
So, what should i do about the flour? In the label it says it has 5% protein per 50gr and 10% of the protein daily needs.
Isnīt it too low to try to make your PJ receipe? If so, how you i should the protein level?

As mentioned before, i have available some durum flour, semolina and VWG (78%).

The good thing is i am going to US again in a couple of months...and Iīll definitly repeat my PJpalloza!
:)

Regards,
Igor
Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2008, 07:36:38 AM »
Hi Igor.... are you from Brazil ??

i live in São Paulo....

recipes that call for 20g of IDY are home recipes, so people could eat pizza in a hour.... good pizzerias use longer fermentation, ive talked to a couple of pizzaiolos at good pizzerias and they all told me that....
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Nabhan

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2008, 07:51:46 AM »
Hi Andre!

I am from RJ, but all my family lives in SP, at Moema.

Thatīs good to know that thereīs someone else from Brazil... :)

What flour do you use?
I tried to buy some from Emporio São Paulo (00), but they cannot send me.

The scenario i am looking at is:
- Regular flours from supermarket
- Some Durum flour, from Renata
- VWG (78%), that i bought online

Iīve just had a brick oven built ....:)

Well, nice too meet you! (my msn: igor_nabhan@hotmail.com)

We could put some people together and brind Pete-zza from Uncle Sam land to give us a Seminar.......lol


Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2008, 08:46:34 AM »
So, what should i do about the flour? In the label it says it has 5% protein per 50gr and 10% of the protein daily needs.
Isnīt it too low to try to make your PJ receipe? If so, how you i should the protein level?


Igor,

I think for now I would just use whatever flour you have on hand and see what results you get. I believe that your all-purpose flour should work for a PJ clone pizza based on another PJ clone dough recipe that I used and described at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg20711.html#msg20711. In that case, I was making a thinner version of a PJ clone dough of another member (Randy) but using all-purpose flour. That produced good results. In your case, you might reduce the hydration a bit by a percent or two to coompensate for the lower absorption rate of your flour. If you get good results, we can then think about supplementing your all-purpose flour with vital wheat gluten.

Peter

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2008, 09:04:23 AM »
Hi Igor..

well its hard to find Italian 00 flour here, but a buy it from two places one in Rio http://www.sitiodomoinho.com/ecommerce/DefaultShowProductDetail.asp?CodProduto=1139&Grupo=25&Categoria=1&SubCategoria=&Texto=1&Pag=1 and the other here in SP a market called Santa Luzia.... and when a use Brazilian flour i use dona benta reserva especial..... ill add you to my msn.

my pizza type is more like the Neapolitan, like speranza in moema where your family lives here in SP.....

good having a Brazilian here in the forum....

abraįo !
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Nabhan

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2008, 09:25:42 AM »
Wow!

I didnīt know the had in Itaipava! I got there at least once a month.

Iīve just got 5 kg of it! Letīs give it a try.

Pete-zza, any comments on the use of 00 flour in the pursuit of a good PJ clone? Would i still follow the Reply 20 receipe?


Regards,
IN

André, i am going to US and i am planning on bringing a lot of stuff....feel free if you want me to bring something for you....
Igor Nabhan
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2008, 09:36:25 AM »
Pete-zza, any comments on the use of 00 flour in the pursuit of a good PJ clone? Would i still follow the Reply 20 receipe?

Igor,

I have never tried 00 flour for the American style pizza, so I can't tell you from personal experience whether it would work. But I personally would not be inclined to use it. I think it is better suited to the Neapolitan style pizza.

Peter

Offline IndyRob

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2008, 06:48:00 PM »
For the crust color you could mix an egg yolk with a teaspoon of water and brush it on the outer crust before baking.  I can just about guarantee that you'll have a beautiful looking crust, but the texture might not be what you're looking for.  But you could also experiment with sprinklings of coarse salt and/or herbs.

In my experience, the crust of an American style pizza is often left uneaten on the plate.  What I call 'Indiana Style' pizza tries to elimiminate as much crust as possible by bringing the topping as close to the edge as possible, whereas Papa John's offers some sauce to dip the crust in, and Pizza Hut (among others) has stuffed the crust with cheese.

But it all comes down to personal preference.


Offline eric22

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2008, 04:32:38 AM »
You did something wrong.  Pizza is somewhat like making bread or pitas.  Your pizza has no color at all.  Not browned.

Your photos are too small also.  Make just one big one.  I want to see the bubbles.

This comment was strange to me.
"I use the autolyse and led the dough sit at room temp for 20 hours. "

you mean 20 minutes. right?

 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 02:24:00 AM by eric22 »

Offline eric22

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Re: Opinions!! Pics of my first pie baked in a home oven! :)
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2009, 04:25:55 AM »
Drop the AP flour and at least use bread flour.

Try and find 'High gluten flour' from Costco.