Author Topic: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.  (Read 1299 times)

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Offline anton-luigi

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Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« on: December 06, 2008, 09:48:47 PM »
Hmmm,  tried a new recipe tonight.  As follows,  using KABF, sifted, fine sicilian sea salt, tap water, and table sugar.  I used NO IDY this time,  which is new for me.  Followed Varasano's 20 minute autolyse,  but this time ONLY lysed with the water, starter and 75% of flour,  added the remaining flour balance as well as the salt and sugar after the first five minutes of wet kneading.  ,  and finished that off with a four minute knead.  Using Hobart stand mixer with regular dough hook.  I have not ventured too far into dough or water temps at this point,  as I am still working on my technique as far as handling and balling,  and skinning. 

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (168%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Sugar:
Total:

655.71 g  |  23.13 oz | 1.45 lbs
419.66 g  |  14.8 oz | 0.93 lbs
13.11 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp
13.11 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
1101.6 g | 38.86 oz | 2.43 lbs | TF = N/A
367.2 g | 12.95 oz | 0.81 lbs
 
 
220.32 g | 7.77 oz | 0.49 lbs
220.32 g | 7.77 oz | 0.49 lbs
440.64 g | 15.54 oz | 0.97 lbs

 
435.39 g | 15.36 oz | 0.96 lbs
199.34 g | 7.03 oz | 0.44 lbs
13.11 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp
440.64 g | 15.54 oz | 0.97 lbs
13.11 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
1101.6 g | 38.86 oz | 2.43 lbs  | TF = N/A

I am still using a home electric oven at 550 on a stone.  This batch is supposed to be at 64% hydration,  but this is probably altered by the sifting of the KABF.  I rested the dough for about 7 minutes post knead,  and it poured out onto my board quite wet.  Once I got some board flour into it,  which was very minimal,  just enough to keep my hands from sticking to it too much,  holy cow,  it felt like silk,  crazy!!!  balling was a bit of a chore due to its hydration,  but I got through it,  plans are to cold ferment for a minimum of five days.  In the past my highest percentage of starter usage was 25-30%,  but this time I went with a full 40%,  should be interesting.  I'd take some pics,  but dough balls all look the same to me and arent very interesting.  I also cut down my ball size considerably(from 410g to 360g this time),  with plans of getting the skin much much thinner than in the past.  My pizza pics have been sparse,  but we'll see what kind of pics I can get from these.


Offline jeff v

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 10:08:56 PM »
Was not using IDY the big difference this time? Are you making a NY style pie or just tinkering?

FYI- the last time I went 5 or 6 days (can't remember which) my dough got too old.

Here are two pretty good references from Peter.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3203.msg27125.html#msg27125

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html

Good Luck,

Jeff

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 11:26:04 PM »
Well,  I changed up quite a few things this time.  Basically making a NY style I guess,  definitely a higher hydration than I have used lately,  went to 40% total dough weight for starter which is quite a jump from where I was at prior,  actually my last batch I used NO IDY either,  but that was an experimental batch where the preferement was initially fed with rye flour at the first feeding,  and then followed up with a small feeding of KABF to ensure activity .  I have had good results with cold ferments of that length in the past,  we will see how they are looking, and go from there.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 11:13:29 AM »
anton-luigi and Jeff,

What will generally dictate the useful life of a dough is the amount of yeast used and the temperature of the dough during fermentation. The degree of hydration of the dough and the amount of salt used will also have an effect on the window of usability but unless the hydration and salt levels are out of the normal ranges under the circumstances (e.g., extremely high hydration for the type of flour used, or very high or very low salt levels), and all else being equal, the amount of yeast used and the dough fermentation temperature will be the key determinants of the useful life of the dough. In anton-luigi's specific case, the rest periods (autolyse and non-autolyse rest periods) will also affect the useful life of the dough by jump starting the fermentation process before the dough is stored (in anton-luigi's case, in the refrigerator).

The above rules will apply whether one is using commercial yeast or a natural starter or preferment. However, commercial yeasts will usually produce more consistent results. This, along with convenience, is why commercial yeasts, especially dry yeasts, were developed in the first place (starting with ADY around World War II). With natural starters/preferments, it is often less certain how long the dough will be usable. That is because of the many different varieties and strains of natural starters, their method of management (including activation and feeding), their level of hydration (e.g, stiff or loose), their level of activity at the time of use, the amount used, and so forth. These factors, along with the dough fermentation temperature, whether at room temperature, in the refrigerator, or some combination of both, will generally dictate how long the dough is usable. It is possible for a dough leavened with a natural starter/preferment to overferment and become unusable. To satisfy myself that that could happen, I once ran a test to confirm it. It is prudent, therefore, to watch the dough as it ages to be sure that it doesn't become too wet (due to the release of water from its bond), slack, gassy, and too pancake-like as the gluten structure is degraded by the action of enzymes (protease).

I hope anton-luigi will keep us informed of his progress on this matter.

Peter

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2008, 12:40:04 PM »
Interesting stuff Pete, so eliminating the IDY has likely reduced the useful life of my dough.  Like I said above,  I have never really been a stickler about temps,  but this is obviously a mistake on my part.  My kitchen is quite chilly at this time of the year,  I think it was around 10 degrees outside last night,  I live in an old house with poor insulation,  so it is chilly in there.  I "just" placed a thermometer in there to get an accurate ambient temp.  My thermometer is actually reading approximately 64-65 degrees in the spot I did my mixing last night.

I can probably guarantee that my dough temp did not hit much more than 70 before refrigerating,  even with the lysing and rest period,  so maybe I've made up a little bit of  ground that I've lost with the lack of yeast?  will be interesting to see what we end up with here.  I just peeked at my dough balls,  and they are quite slack at this time,  cant be more than maybe an inch high at this point.  I also notice that one of them already has the makings of a bubble getting ready to grow on the surface(crap)  Guess even without the commercial yeast Ive got my starter good and active?  and my rest period has obviously jump started fermentation as Pete said.   I will be sure to take some pics of finished pies when complete.  I store in plastic glad containers btw.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:50:41 PM by anton-luigi »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2008, 01:03:06 PM »
anton-luigi,

If you used the identical dough formulation this time but only omitted the IDY, then the useful life will be shortened. But, if you also increased the amount of preferment, as you indicated, that will partly offset the fact that you omitted the IDY.

As far as the effects of room temperature on finished dough temperature are concerned, I think that you will find that as a dough sits, either as part of an autolyse or other rest period and also the final rest period before refrigerating the dough, the finished dough will get to room temperature fairly quickly, whether the finished dough is initially above or below room temperature. In your case, you used an initial Varasano "autolyse" of 20 minutes and a final rest period of 7 minutes. That combined time is plenty enough time for the dough to reach room temperature or something close to it. Ideally, I think you want to shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. Depending on your room temperature, flour temperature, and the heat imparted to your dough by your mixer, you would normally adjust the water temperature to get the desired finished dough temperature. However, you will usually have to make a further adjustment to the water temperature if you also use autolyse and other rest periods. In the summertime, for offsetting purposes you would usually use cooler water; in the wintertime, you might have to use warmer water.

Peter

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2008, 01:12:57 PM »
So the finished temp "should" hit 80 degrees?  I must have missed that fact,  I thought I read that you just didnt want to exceed that number.  I have on occasion checked final dough temps,  but have never been more than say 72-74 degrees.  As far as heat imparted by the mixer,  that really seems to be minimal,  I do the wet knead per Jeff V for 5 minutes with 75% of lfour and 100% of water,  and then follow that with a 3 minute knead with the remaining ingredients,  EVERY TIME.  I have only varied that process a couple of times,  one of them was during a final dough temp check,  where I found the above temps,  then continued to knead for another minute or two to see what kind of temp change I ended up with.  The change was very minimal,  might have been no more than a degree or so If I remember correctly. 

As far as the formulation change this time,  NO,  I made several changes at once,  which is obviously not the ideal.  went to 40% starter from 25-30%,  eliminated the IDY, used table sugar this time as well.  I have gone back and forth with the sugar thing,  the last batch I made using brown sugar instead of the table sugar I used this time.  As you have probably surmised,  I am not approaching this very scientifically,  more tinkering than anything,  which makes self analyzation difficult.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 01:20:09 PM by anton-luigi »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2008, 02:02:38 PM »
anton-luigi,

The 80 degree F number is just a rough number. Typically, the recommended finished dough temperature for commercially produced dough balls that are stored in a commercial cooler is 80-85 degrees F if the dough balls are to be stored in dough boxes and 75-80 degrees F if the dough balls are to be stored on flat, covered trays. For a home setting, my recollection is that Tom Lehmann suggested a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F because refrigerators are not as efficient at cooling as commercial coolers used by professionals. In your case, it sounds like you need to use warmer water than you have been using this time of year. Other members who regularly work with naturally leavened doughs may confirm this, but I think that finished dough temperature may be more important for a naturally leavened dough than a commercially leavened dough. I say this in part based on what pizzanapoletana (Marco) said (to Gils) about using water that is too cold, at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8959/topicseen.html#msg8959.

Peter

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: Just finished dough batch, new recipe for me.
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 05:43:51 PM »
Well,  sorry,  no pics,  I apparently had the camera set on video when I was taking pictures of the pies.  My wife got the best of me and talked me into making a pizza on the second night after balling,  texture and crumb were mostly satisfactory to me,  but flavor was definitely lacking from longer ferm times.    Was a much higher hydration than I'd been working with,  so that was fun  :-[      The next night I pulled out the other two dough balls,  so 3 days,  had probably increased by approximately 50%.  My skinning technique is a bit different,  I cant seem to finger poke out the rim and the center and then do the spin stretch thing very well,  I inevitably flatten out a part of the rim and get it all out of shape and uneven.  I have begun doing a minimal stretch over my fists,  then switch to a knuckle hanging stretch.  I did end up with a couple of small holes in the dough,  which has not been a problem for me up until this point???   These two pies were better than the first as far as flavor goes,  basically the same as far as texture.  I made my first margherita out of the 2nd ball,  unfortunately using a fresh mozzarella called Bel Gioioso,  obviously cow's milk.  Sauce was a can of Dell Alpe DOP cert San Marzano's,  lightly processed with a few pinches of basil, oregano, a slight squirt of honey, and a couple teaspoons of the leftover sauce from the can.  Fresh basil leaves to top it off.  One problem I keep running into is,  I do not have a pizza peel at this time.  I have been using the same glass cutting board that I skin on as the peel,  so I have to work very quickly to keep it from sticking.  But what ends up happening is that I have the skin stretched out to say 13-14" ,  and then having to do my jerks to keep it free from sticking,   the pie ends up bunching back together and shrinking back down to 11 or 12".  I have had mixed results in the past with trying to stretch it back out by grabbing the rim( I have seen Dom doing that in his vids,  mine not so successful)  Guess I need to quit being a cheap ass and buy myself a peel.   ;D 

So,  what did I learn?   hmmmmmmmm,    I think I need to keep the IDY in the formulation and go back to 4-5 day cold ferments,  I currently have a batch of 24 hr preferment thats just about ready to go,  so I will be making dough again tonight.   :)   I do this on the average of 3 nights per week,  driving my wife insane!!!!!



 

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