Author Topic: Re: PizzaManic's/Cinnamos Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)  (Read 10311 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Cinnamos' Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2008, 09:36:07 AM »
Hi Pete

Its not that I don't want to use ur instructions. I just thought that looking at a practical video of how Tom does it would be a great help. I have been using your's and your instructions only for all my experiments. I don't really question your tips and advice as I know it is of the best form for whatever I am doing. The main purpose of me asking for the link to the video is to view exactly how he does it.  A pictures says a thousand words. I wonder how many words a video says?

Oh by the way and Im sure Lydia will be glad I did this. I had a problem with my Hand Mixer so I went back to where I bought it and they refunded me my money. I saw a very nice Hand Mixer but this one comes with a bowl and a stand on which the hand mixer can be fixed onto and used as a Kithen Aid Stand Mixer. This will make life much more easier.

Well Pete again I thank you so much for everything you have done so far and im sure u will be assisting me for a long time to come. I never thought this pizza making would be so much of fun.

Regards
Cinnamo's



Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Cinnamos' Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2008, 03:07:12 AM »
Hi Pete

I just recently came across this post.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1503.0.html

There was 1 thing that seemed really helpful but I cant seem to access it for some odd reason
You mentioned in that post that there is a method whereby one could use a towel and practice Dough Stretching and Tossing techniques. For some reason that link does not seem to work.

Any idea where I could get more info on that technique. I think it would be a good idea to first practice using that method and once prefect I could go onto doing on real dough. That way, good dough dosent go to waste.

Regards
Cinnamo's

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Cinnamos' Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2008, 05:10:12 AM »
Cinnamos,

I found and corrected the link you mentioned. The post itself is Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,223.msg1791/topicseen.html#msg1791.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Hi Pete
Its been a long time sine I posted here.

I have finally received my Thermometer.
Now I can finally attempt this recipe with the right tools.

Before I continue further, I'd just like to clarify something. In a recent post, I mentioned that I had purchased a Kitchen Aid Stand Mixer. After some research I realized that my mixer is not a Kitchen Aid Stand Mixer. Well, due to my ignorance I totally confused myself. I thought Kitchen Aid was a type of a mixer but now learned that it is a Brand. Stand Mixer is a type. I neither have a Kitchen Aid nor do I have a Powerful Stand mixer that everyone suggests one uses.

Its good to learn about all this. It's just that baking was never something I thought I would ever do. I always felt it was for the ladies. After trying to produce a clone of Pizza Hut and finally finding this forum its now become sort of a hobby and I love every bit of it. So again guys, Please excuse my ignorance. I learn something new on every attempt.

The mixer I had purchased is the one found here.
https://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/sunbeam-hand-stand-mixer

Mine is not the exact same model but very very similar. Now after a little more research I was told that these machines are not powerful enough to knead dough like how the Kitchen Aid Stand Mixers and ones alike are. I then came across the following post by yours truly "Pete" the Pizza Pro.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36489.html#msg36489

I was just contemplating on two scenarios. One is I could push my machine to the limit and try to make it knead the dough for me or follow your method in the post above.

I chose to mention both here and see what you have to say. What I need to know from you is whether the hand kneading method would produce a close enough clone to your Pappa John Pizza Clones. Also while you at it maybe you could point me in the right direction with regards to the next point. I think my hand kneading technique really sucks. Is there anywhere on the internet that could give me step by step instructions on the correct way to knead. A video would be even better.

Would you think it maybe better for me to attempt this recipe using a 2 day fermentation rather than a 5 day fermentation. I know previously you mentioned that a 5 Day fermentation dough needs to be prepared under very tight conditions. For one my fridge doesn't seem to be cooling as much as I would want it to. I took water straight out from my fridge and tested the temperature using my therm and found that is was 13 Degrees Celsius. So my assumption is my fridge is cooling at 13 Degrees Celsius. You mentioned that my fridge needs to cool at around 4-5 Degrees Celsius. I really doubt my fridge is cooling that much.

Anyways, below is the proposed method I would like to use. Please feel free to correct me in any way.
I have listed the recipe for a 2 day fermentation. Based upon you recommendation, I could always adjust that if you feel I would be up to it, to proceed with a 5 day fermentation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bread Flour (100%):                   355.4 g  |  12.54 oz | 0.78 lbs
Water (56.5%):                         200.8 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (0.28%):                            1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                           6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):  25.94 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):                          14.93 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.74 tsp | 1.25 tbsp
Total (170.03%):                      604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
   
1) Add water to the mixer bowl. (I need to know how to calculate what my water temperature needs to be taking into consideration my room temperature. I remember once you mentioned a formula. Could you maybe elaborate further using an example. Use an example of 27 Degrees Celsius for my room temp in you explanation.)

2) Add the salt, and stir for about 30-45 seconds to completely dissolve. Then add in the sugar and Stir for another 30-45 Seconds till fully dissolved.


3) Add oil to the mixer bowl and stir for 15-20 secs.

4) Using my Hand Mixer with the Beater Attachment, placed onto the stand with the rotating bowl, I would then sift in the flour using my sieve. I would add in bit by bit till I feel the machine is being bogged down. I assume that this would take about 2 Minutes

5) At this stage I would remove any flour that's on the Beater Attachment and now attach my dough hooks to the hand beater. A picture of the dough hooks I use can be found below.

6) I would like to try using 1 of 2 method below
a) Using my Dough Hook Attachment, I would add the remainder of the flour and then knead my dough for a further 1-2 minutes so to fully incorporate the oil. After this time, I would then sprinkle the IDY over my dough and knead for a further 4-5 Minutes or until the dough is soft, tacky but not sticky.
b) Remove the contents of the bowl and put on a work surface. Continue to sift small amounts of the flour mixture on top of the dough and incorporate by kneading. I would knead in the remainder of the flour for about 1-2 Minutes. Then add in the IDY and continue to knead for a further 3-4 Minutes.( Don't forget to advise me on the kneading technique to use at this stage).

8) I would then shape the dough into a neat round ball.

7) Lightly oil the dough ball, place 2 poppy seeds an inch apart as close to the center of the dough as possible and place in a glass Pyrex bowl and place in fridge for about 15 minutes. Then place on plastic wrap with a tiny hole in the center. I will leave for 2 days before using.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope I covered every step. If there's anything that is incorrect or doesn't make sense, then please correct me.

Looking forward to your advice.
Regards
PizzaManic

Online Pete-zza

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PizzaManic,

The electric hand mixer method you referenced appears to work well based on PMs I have received from members. However, I have found that hand kneading a Papa John's clone dough to be very easy. I recently described how to do it in a couple of places, with a Peter Reinhart American style dough at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672 and, more recently, with a PJ emergency clone dough at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. You will also find more hand kneading tips at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. There is no reason why you can't use the same general hand kneading methods with the two-day dough formulation you referenced. If you feel you need even more instruction on hand kneading, I am sure you can find several videos at YouTube for that purpose. However, having seen some of those videos, I concluded that it was best for me to use my own methods. As between using the electric hand mixer method and pure hand kneading, I would go with the pure hand kneading method. It is simpler and just as good as using a machine in my opinion.

A few other things: There is no need to stir the oil when it is added to water, since it won't dissolve in the water. Also, the sugar and salt can be dissolved in the water at the same time. With respect to water temperature, I have found that water temperature and dough kneaded by hand fairly rapidly approach the room temperature. In your case, with a room temperature of 27 degrees C (80.6 degrees F), I suggest that you use a water temperature of around 10-12 degrees C (about 50-55 degrees F). Given your warm room temperature, you should work quickly (that is, without a lot of breaks or interruptions) to prepare the dough and measure the finished dough temperature. If it around 24 degrees C (about 75 degrees F), you should be fine, but don't panic if it varies by a few degrees either side. Even if your refrigerator isn't the coolest, I think your dough should be fine over a period of two days. If you can, I suggest that you put the dough toward the back of the refrigerator away from the door, where it is likely to be a few degrees cooler.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Hi Pete
Always good to hear from you.

I read through all the posts you recommended that I read and have a few questions.

According to the following post, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786 as well as the post on Emergency Papa John clone , you stated that you added the IDY to the flour whereas in the 2 Day Papa John Clone you stated that you added the IDY to the dough after kneading it for 2 minutes just before a final knead of 5 minutes. Which of the methods do you suggest I use when adding in the IDY.

You also mentioned in the Papa John Emergency Clone that you used VWG. Unfortunately I was unable to obtain VWG at this time. Please advise on whether it is needed or not.

I also read that hand kneading does not add much heat to the dough thus the final dough temperature might not be the same as a dough kneaded using a stand mixer. Taking this into account, I was wondering whether my water temp would need to be increased slightly. While on the topic of water temp, how do I calculate what my water temp needs to be at considering the final dough temp as well as the room temp. The reason I ask this is the day before, I asked you what should my water temp be based on a room temp of 27 Degrees Celsius. Today the whether changed completely making the room temp at 22 Degrees Celsius. The weather here is very unpredictable at this very time.

Lastly I searched around for tips on Hand kneading. I found quite some informative videos. I have found many videos and just chose to view just a few. I have placed links to the videos I have viewed. If you have some time, please view these videos and advise on which method you would prefer I use.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yycs2-vq9I8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yycs2-vq9I8</a>


I have also downloaded the ffg video
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9KX4KFBj5w" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9KX4KFBj5w</a>
. It calls for a Fold, Push a turn method for about 6-8 Minutes. What is you opinion on this method?

I also read a post of yours that says not over knead dough in contrast with Bread Dough. How do I ascertain whether the dough is properly kneaded.

I still plan to use the method I described in my previous post unless you advise otherwise.

Really looking forward to hearing from you.
Hopefully this time I wont screw up this recipe like the last.

Thanks
Regards

Online Pete-zza

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PizzaManic,

I think you are making matters far too complicated for yourself. You should just find the Papa John's clone dough formulation that most closely matches the ingredients and equipment you have and go into your kitchen and try to make it. All of the PJ clone dough formulations I wrote about were intended to stand alone, with specific instructions that I used and expected others to use. For example, if I said to add the IDY separately just before the final knead, that is what I would expect others to do. It is up to them to choose to ignore my instructions if they so wish. It is true that I said at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786 that the IDY should be added to the flour. That is the standard method of using IDY. However, I might deviate from that standard methodology from time to time for specific purposes (in the case of the two-day dough at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217, it was an attempt to better control the fermentation window). In your case, I don't think that it would matter much whether you add the IDY to the flour or to the dough at a later stage, although I did not try that with the two-day dough I described.

As for the vital wheat gluten (VWG), if you don't have it, the matter is moot and you should just use straight flour. As I noted in the discussion of the PJ emergency dough clone, I used VWG, along with honey (instead of sugar), to achieve more crust color in the finished crust and to get increased chewiness. That combination was unique to the emergency clone dough because of its very short fermentation time. I did not specify that combination for the two-day PJ clone dough, although I suspect it would work for that dough as well if you had the VWG. In your case, you should just go with all bread flour.

As for the different videos that you referenced, as I noted before I do not pay much attention to them. It is not as though I did not do some research on the matter of hand kneading. I did review several YouTube and other videos before I wrote the material presented in Reply 65 referenced above. However, I found that a good number of the videos I looked at, such as the one on the French method (the first video you cited), were specifically for making bread dough, including some with very high hydration, where it is important to get full gluten development and increased dough strength. I would never use the French method shown in the video to make pizza dough. Would it work? Maybe so, but I will leave to others to decide whether they prefer the results using that method over the less aggressive methods that I use. The second video you cited (the epicurious video), while not showing the steps leading up to the final knead, does show a kneading method--folds with quarter turns--like the one I use. The third video you cited (the KitchenAid dough kneading video) also shows the general method I use. That is the one that you should use.

On the matter of calculating the required water temperature to achieve a particular desired finished dough temperature, I wouldn't be too concerned with that. There is a simple calculation that can be performed for that purpose but it is intended for standard commercial dough preparation applications using specific commercial stand mixers, standard dough batch weights, and related friction factors. I found that I can use that calculation expression for my home KitchenAid stand mixer but I found that it does not work well for hand kneaded doughs, which require more time than either a commercial application or one using my KitchenAid stand mixer. For that reason, I don't think the calculation method will work well using an electric hand mixer together with hand kneading as you have been contemplating. In your case, I would just use common sense. If your room temperature drops, just use warmer water. If the room temperature rises, use cooler water. After you have made several doughs in your kitchen at different times of year, you will soon learn how to adjust the water temperature. Some people start with tap water temperature, or room temperature water, and make adjustments from there.

I wish I could tell you with words when the dough is just right and not overkneaded. That comes with experience, which may include failures from time to time. In my case, I knead the dough until it is smooth, malleable and homogeneous. Then I stop kneading. It's the same whether I am using a machine or hand kneading. The PJ clone doughs are fairly forgiving in this regard because they have a hydration of around 56-60% and 7+% oil, which makes the doughs smooth and malleable and among the easiest doughs I have made. However, I have had the benefit of using some of the best flours available anywhere around the world, which may not be true in your case.

If you decide to proceed with the stand mixer method and have any remaining questions that I have not answered, let me know.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Hi Pete
Once again, I always look forward to your advice.

I think your'e right. I am making things a bit too complicated for something as easy as this.

It just that before I attempt a recipe I tend to think out the whole process of how I would go about proceeding with a recipe and all these funny thoughts come to mind, like what if this happens and what if that happens. Its more of a panic attack if you want to call it.

What I think would be best for me is to just go ahead and try out this recipe. Hope for the best and learn from there.

I'd really like to thank you for your patience with me. That's the one thing that makes you really unique. No matter what questions are asked, you are always every ready to answer and a Big Thank You for that.

I think you have covered everything and I am good to go. Hopefully if nothing comes up tonight, I am going to attempt this.

I will most definitely let you know of the results.

Regards
PizzaManic

Offline PizzaManic

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Hi Pete

I got a little bit of both good news and bad news.

The good news is I managed to attempt the recipe.

And for the bad news, well lets just say it was Pizza La Disaster.

First Attempt was a total disaster.
20% of the dough ended up sticking to my fingers and the mixer bowl but I continued kneading it into a ball. It seemed fine but to top of things, I forgot to add the IDY to the dough before a final knead. I had to throw the entire dough away.

The second attempt however was much better.
Anyways here's how things went.

1) I firstly started out with measuring and combining sugar and salt in a separate bowl.

2) Then I measured out the oil in another bowl

3) I then sifted the flour into another bowl.

4) I took out the water straight from the fridge. At the time it was about 9 Degrees Celsius. I felt that was a bit cold so I had to wait for more or less 10 minutes for it to warm up to about 12 Degrees Celsius. What I did do at this stage while the water was warming up is added the Salt/Sugar mixture to the water and continued stirring. I felt that this helped speed up the warming up process and also the reason I put the Salt and sugar now was once the water was at the right temp, I could work more faster eliminating the step of adding and dissolving the salt and sugar as it take time to stir to to dissolve.

5) Once the water was at 12 Degrees Celsius, I added the oil and put on my Beater Attachment.

6) I then switched on my machine and added flour a little at a time.
** Just a note here. The last attempt was a disaster due to my inexperience in Hand Kneading. This time 
     I though I'd let the machine knead the dough for me.

7) I ended up adding all of the flour and kneading with beater attachment for about 3 minutes. I then switched to  my Dough Hook Attachment and kneaded for about another 2 minutes. At this time my machine failed on me. It just stopped working. Probably the motor burned out. The dough was still very wet, sticky and all over the bowl. I decided to first knead a little in the bowl to gather all the dough that was stuck to the sides of the bowl.

8) I then emptied the contents of the bowl onto my counter top to knead further. I did notice that based on pure assumption, 5% of the dough stayed back in the bowl. I kneaded for about a minute and found the dough to be very sticky still. It just went all over my hands. So the temptation which should have been resisted could not. I had to add some flour. About a tablespoon and half. This really helped the dough. I kneaded for about 4 minutes by hand.

9) At this stage the dough was soft but not tacky. No tackiness at all. I would put this dough more towards the dry side but quite soft. I just hope it turns out well.

10) The dough temp at this stage was around 79 Degrees F. I sprayed a dish with cooking spray, lightly oiled the top of the dough ball and placed into the dish covered with plastic and poked a tiny hole, about the size of one spoke of a fork into the middle of the plastic.

11) I even placed the poppy seeds an inch apart to monitor growth.

12) One note is that the total time from when I took the water out of the fridge till I placed the dough in the fridge was 23 Minutes.

I think the best thing for me to do the next time is get a good heavy duty stand mixer. The last time I attempted this recipe using a stand mixer, it worked exceptionally well. The only problem on that attempt was my water temp.

Anyways like always feel free to comment on any steps that may have been done incorrectly.
Looking forward to hearing from you

Regards
PizzaManic

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 03:00:09 AM by PizzaManic »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: PizzaManic's/Cinnamos Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2009, 02:29:36 AM »
Hi Pete
I trust all is well.

I guess you probably expecting a feedback on how my pizza was.
In actual fact there was no pizza. To cut a long story short, when I was transferring the pizza to my stone, it toppled over onto a 230 Degree C stone. There was no way I could remove it quick enough to place it properly and it was one big mess.

Never the less I thought I would brief you on all the steps leading up to my disaster.

1) After 17Hrs in the fridge, the Poppy Seeds were 2.9.Cm apart. Dough at this time seems firm but the underneath looks sticky.

2) After 35 Hrs in the fridge the poppy seeds were 3.1 Cm apart. Dough at this time seems firm but again sticky underneath.

3) After 43 Hrs, I was ready to use the dough. The seeds at this time were 3.2Cm apart. The dough temp at this time was 55.6 Degrees F.

4) I had some trouble removing the dough out of the container. As I suspected, the underneath was quite sticky. I had to use a flat spatula to remove the dough. I would say about 1.5% of the dough remained in the container that the dough was originally placed in.

5) Once I removed the dough from the container, I placed the dough onto a floured surface (dustinator) with the sticky side of the dough facing up.

6) I then threw flour on the all other exposed surfaces of the dough.

7) The dough was left uncovered for approx 1.5 hours. At this time the dough temp was 76 Degrees F, which was quite close to 79 Degrees F as you suggested. I then began rolling out the dough

8 ) This process was quite easy. The dough was easily handable. It rolled out easily without it springing back after a few rolls and before rotating the dough 90 Degrees clockwise for another roll. After not much rolling, the dough reached a size of about 10 Inches.
    ** One note at this stage. The dough felt sticky but I would associate it more to the side of tackiness rather than stickiness. Is this normal? I did use the mixture of semolina, white cake flour and 6-7 drops of sunflower oil as my dustinator.

9) I then hand stretched it to 14 inches by hand. I found it very easy to do compared to my previous attempt.

10) I then topped my pizza and the rest was basically history.

Well history is something we all learn from. Like I said before and again, this aint deterring me away from this recipe. I am going to make sure I perfect it. All that these failures have done is encourage me more to perfect this and it indirectly has brought me one step closer each time.

For my next attempt, I would like to achieve 2 things.

1) Downscale the pizza by half. This would be easily achievable as I would just reduce each ingredient by exactly half. My reason for doing this is firstly to save on the ingredient cost till I perfect this recipe and get a proper feel of how it should be done. Secondly, a 7 inch pizza would be much easier to handle in terms of transferring it to my stone considering my failure to do so on my last attempt. I attribute that problem to not having a proper peel to transfer. What I need to know is would down scaling this recipe have any significant difference to the final outcome of the pizza compared to the original size of 14 inches. Also would you suggest I make any other modifications for the original recipe when down scaling.

2) I would like to resolve the problem of the stickiness of the dough after 2 days of cold fermentation. I cant understand why this problem is recurring since I am using bread flour as suggested with 12% protein. My water temp was quite cold. The dough temp was as expected.

I look forward to hearing from you

Best Regards
PizzaManic








Online Pete-zza

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Re: PizzaManic's/Cinnamos Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2009, 10:41:36 AM »
PizzaManic,

Apart from the mishap, I think you made real progress this time.

I assume that your poppy seeds were initially separated by one inch, or 2.54 cm. If so, your dough expanded in an orderly manner. By my calculation, the dough doubled in about 43 hours.

I assume also that you lightly oiled the dough container before placing the dough into it. Even then, the dough can stick to the container and be a bit difficult to remove. The way I do the dough removal is to turn the container upside down and run a thin-edged spatula or an ordinary kitchen butter knife around the dough at its perimeter (i.e., I place the spatula or butter knife between the dough and the wall of the container). This helps free the dough from the container. I then shake the container, which causes the dough to further separate from the container and to flop onto my work surface.

I don't recall specifying a temperature for a PJ clone dough during the time that it warms up after removing it from the refrigerator. Maybe you confused that with the finished dough temperature, which I did discuss.

As you know, I use a pizza screen to make the American style pizza. I use the screen because the dough includes a lot of sugar, which can lead to premature bottom crust browning, or even burning, if the pizza is baked directly on a hot pizza stone. However, I have read that some members have used a pizza stone for the American style, apparently without getting an overly browned or burned bottom crust. I mention this just so that you are aware of the issue.

If you plan to downsize the dough formulation you used, you should be aware that if you cut the amount of dough for a 14" pizza in half and make two 7" pizzas, the thicknesses of the two 7" pizzas will not be the same as the 14" pizza. The math isn't linear like that. The better approach if you want to make 7" pizzas is to use the expanded dough calculating tool to tell you what amounts of ingredients you will need for a 7" pizza. I could show you how to do that, but you won't learn anything if I do all the work for you. However, I will review your numbers if you'd like. I believe that you have been using the dough formulation I posted at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. If so, everything you will need to do the calculations is in that post.

If you continue to experience excessive stickiness of the dough at the time you decide to use it, you should use a bit more of your Dustinator clone flour blend. That should absorb the excess moisture and contribute to the ultimate crust flavor as well. 

Peter




Offline PizzaManic

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Re: PizzaManic's/Cinnamos Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2009, 03:33:04 AM »
Hi Pete
I certainly have made a lot of progress considering my previous attempts.

Yes, the poppy seeds were 1 inch apart.

The reason for specifying a dough temp straight out of the fridge was because I wanted to get as much info about the dough as possible. It also gives me an idea of how well my fridge is cooling. It also gives me an idea of how long it would take to bring the dough to the desired temp before rolling it out.

Unfortunately I don't have a Pizza Screen and I am unable to locate one locally. The ones online end up being too expensive taking into account shipping costs. Is it a difficult product to manufacture? I'm sure someone here that manufactures baking products would be able to make something for me.

I have finally got down to using the expanded dough calculating tool. It's not quite difficult if you have all the information required and thanks to you that was a breeze. Here are the figures I came up with. Let me know if it's right or wrong.

Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.03%):
88.85 g  |  3.13 oz | 0.2 lbs
50.2 g  |  1.77 oz | 0.11 lbs
0.25 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
6.49 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.43 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
3.73 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.94 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
151.07 g | 5.33 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = 0.1384663

Looking forward to hearing from you
Regards
PizzaManic

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Re: PizzaManic's/Cinnamos Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2009, 09:50:14 AM »
PizzaManic,

You did well with the expanded dough calculating tool. All of the numbers are correct.

The amount of dough for the 7" pizza, 151.07 grams (5.33 ounces), is so small that you perhaps should hand knead it. If so, you might want to use a slightly higher bowl residue compensation value in the expanded dough calculating tool, say, around 2-2.5%.

I look forward to your results with the 7" size. That is not a Papa John's standard size but it seems that a 7" PJ clone pizza would be a good "personal" size pizza. I estimate that if you use a proportionate amount of cheese, sauce and pepperoni slices on the 7" pizza as I typically used on a 14" pizza, the total weight of your unbaked 7" pizza should be around 270.18 grams (9.53 ounces). Of course, the pizza will lose some weight during baking.

You should also remember that you may have to adjust the bake time for the 7" pizza because of its smaller size. So, you should watch it carefully during baking.

I am afraid that I cannot offer any help to you on the pizza screen matter. However, you will note from Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4460.msg39675/topicseen.html#msg39675 that Randy, who is a skilled PJ clone pizza maker, says that his PJ clone can be baked on a pizza stone. So, you might give your pizza stone a try and see how that works out for you.

Peter

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Hi Pete
Itís been a long time since I last posted here.
I trust you are well.

I am so happy to announce I have finally got a PIZZA SCREEN
Yipeeeeeeeeeeee.Excuse the excitement but I'm sure you understand how much of anxiety there was in getting this Screen.
I had to literally bend over backwards to get my hands on the darn thing

Anyways, after purchasing a 13 Inch Screen, I had to attempt this, one more time.

The recipe and method from start to end is to follow.

Using the Expanded Dough Calculator and a Thickness Factor of 0.13642, I came up with the following formula

Flour (100%): Water (56.5%): IDY (0.28%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%): Sugar (4.2%): Total (170.03%): 306.44 g  |  10.81 
oz | 0.68 lbs 173.14 g  |  6.11 oz | 0.38 lbs 0.86 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp 5.36 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp 22.37 g | 
0.79 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.93 tsp | 1.64 tbsp 12.87 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.23 tsp | 1.08 tbsp 521.04 g | 18.38 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.1384663

*** I kicked up the Protein of my flour from 11.7 to 12.7 by adding in 4.84g VWG.

Method

1) I started out by adding the sugar and salt to cold water and stirred thoroughly to dissolve.
2) I then added oil to the water mixture.
3) In a separate bowl I had already measured out the flour + VWG + IDY
4) Using the beater attachment, I added my flour mixture to my water mixture. In about a minute and 20 sec, the dough wiped of the sides of the bowl and 
formed into a nice ball. I was very surprised at this stage because the dough was not very sticky like previous attempts. It was almost as if the kneading 
process was done already
5) I then attached my Dough Hooks and kneaded for +-6 Minutes. The dough ball was soft and smooth.
6) I hand kneaded for a minute into a round, even smoother ball.
7) I took the dough temperature at this time and it was 79.9 Degrees C
8) I put the dough into a container, placed 2 poppy seeds 1 inch apart and placed it in the fridge uncovered for about 20 minutes.
9) I then placed a plastic over the container and poked a small hole through it and placed the container back into the fridge, right at the back.
10) After sitting for 49Hrs in the fridge, the poppy seeds moved 1.57 Inches apart which I think is almost 3 times the size.
11) Unfortunately I wasn't ready to use the dough as I fell ill on that day.
12) I thought the dough wouldn't hold up for another day so I removed it from the container, shaped it into a small ball again and then set it back into the 
container and back into the fridge.
13) After 12 hours of re-shaping it, the poppy seeds were about 1.32 inches apart
14) After 21 hours of re-shaping it, the poppy seeds were about 1.496 inches apart. I was ready to use the dough at this stage.
15) The dough was removed from the container and placed on my counter top. I covered all exposed areas of the dough with the Dustinator and left it at room 
temp for about just over an hour.
16) I rolled the dough using a rolling pin to about 10 inches and then hand stretched to a further 13 inches. The dough handled pretty well though it was 
springing back a little but I overcame that by letting the dough rest for a while.
17) I then placed the skin on the screen. I did spray the screen with Cooking Spray.
18) I topped the dough and baked on 240 Degrees Celsius for +-10mins.

MY Comments
Overall I was happy at the fact that I had finally completed the attempt successfully unlike all my previous attempts.
I found the crust well crisped something I had never attained before using the stone.
The thickness of my base was not consistent throughout but I would say it varied from 0.7Cm towards the middle to 1.1Cm towards the rim.
I haven't ever tasted Pappa Johns before so I didn't know what to expect but I am glad I tried it to finally get a feel of exactly how it's done and the 
taste of it. The Pizza overall was OK. I found that the taste of the base was not very flavourable. Is there no way of kicking up the flavour of the base?

I forgot to mention that I tried the sauce recipe as well. I used La Belinda canned tomatoes with tomato juice ( http://www.imcaspa.it/products.html ). I measured out of the can the required 
amount of tomatoes in grams. I threw in a little bit of tomato juice. I added in all the other ingredients and then blended everything together into a 
sauce. I found that my sauce was a light red colour. The taste was very sourish. I think the correct term would be acidic. Can you advise me on what 
tomatoes are best to use for sauce?  I would love to get my hands on San Marzano but I donít think it would be feasible.
Just as protein content in flour is an important piece of info, what important information should I look out for on canned tomatoes?

Lastly and I will open up a new post for this and I humbly request your assistance Petezza.
I am looking for an Authentic Italian Pizza so to say. The thickness of the crust should be around 0.3 - 0.35CM. The rim can be slightly thicker but not 
necessary. The base of the pizza should have a little bit of flavour to it. If you can please point me in the right direction, I would be really grateful.

Take care
Really really looking forward to hearing from you
Regards
PizzaManic

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PizzaManic,

I'm glad to see that you were able to procure a pizza screen and to make a pizza with it.

When I undertook to reverse engineer and clone a basic Papa John's pizza, I did not try to embellish it in any way to increase the crust flavors. In other words, I did not venture outside of the four corners of the PJ clone dough recipe I used. However, as somewhat a generalization, here are some of the usual ways to get more flavor in a finished crust:

1. Use a long fermentation time, whether at room temperature or in a refrigerator or cooler. Under the proper conditions, a combination of room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation can also be used.

2. Use a higher protein flour or combine the flour with other grains/grain components, such as rye flour, cornmeal/cornflour, whole wheat flour, semolina flour, 00 flour, or wheat germ.

3. Use a natural starter/preferment.

4. Use a preferment based on commercial yeast. Examples include poolish, sponge, biga, and old dough (pate fermente).

5. Use flavor enhancers in the dough such as honey, maple syrup, molasses, nondiastatic barley malt, garlic powder, or herbs.

6. Use butter or other flavorful solid fat as an oil replacer in the dough, or use a more flavorful oil. The rim of the dough can also be brushed with butter or oil before baking.

7. Select a baking protocol (oven temperature, bake time, rack positioning, and possibly use of the broiler) to enhance the caramelization of sugars in the dough (to produce a more flavorful rim).

As you might expect, implementing some of the above measures may entail having to modify the dough formulation and related procedures and other factors.

With respect to the selection of tomatoes, I am afraid I cannot be of any particular help to you, especially since you are using tomato products in South Africa that are unfamiliar to me. For the PJ clone sauce, I have been using primarily "fresh pack" tomatoes or some other type of tomato with a similar texture. The San Marzano tomatoes you mentioned could possibly be made to work but that tomato is one that is typically used to make a Neapolitan style pizza, not a PJ clone.

Peter