Dough Tearing, What am I doing Wrong.

[cartierusm]

So I've searched endlessly on here, watched youtube videos and the like. My dough looks nothing like those in the videos and definitely doesn't pass the window pane test. I need to make a large batch today or tomorrow for a pizza party on Friday, so any help is appreciated. Below is my procedure for a regular batch, I want to get a decent one going before I upscale.

My normal recipe:
Flour (100%):      276.5 g  |  9.75 oz | 0.61 lbs  King Arthur BREAD Flour
Water (62%):    171.43 g  |  6.05 oz | 0.38 lbs Spring Water
IDY (.25%):    0.69 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (1%):            2.77 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp Kosher
Oil (.8%):            2.21 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp EVOO
Total (164.05%):   453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs

I put the flour, yeast and water in my Kitchen Aid mixer and mix on 'stir' until all the flour is incorporated and it forms a rough ball. I let it autolyse for 10 minutes. Then I mix in the oil for 2 minutes and then mix for 2 minutes for the salt; followed by 20 seconds on high to knead. Then I let it sit in the frige for a day or so. When I go to make the pizza skin it doesn't stretch very much at all and usually starts to tear. If I try to make a bigger circle it sort of shrinks back to a smaller puck, almost rubber like.

This is what I read was the way to do it as to not over knead it. Then watching videos today and reading here I thought maybe I wasn't kneading hardly at all. So I mixed a batch today and started the timer and just kneaded trying to get the dough to window pane. But no luck, after trying the dough from 5 minutes to 30+minutes it still is tacky and will not window pane.

Is it the bread flour?
Is it the kneading, with such a small batch in the Kitchen Aid mixer it seems to just move the dough ball around instead of kneading it.

HELP Please, thanks.

[cartierusm]

So I read more and some of the guys say that you shouldn't get a window pane with pizza dough. Anywho, after the 30 minutes of kneading I let it sit while I read here. The dough was definitely drier and not so sticky. So I'm letting it rest and I'll see how it goes.

[DrivenAgain]

How long are you letting it rest once you take it out of the fridge?
Jason

[cartierusm]

About 2 hours. I've got a new batch going tonight for my pizza party so we'll see how that goes. This last batch I mixed until it formed a rough ball, then I let rest 30 minutes, then mixed for like 10 minutes, then let it rest another 30 minutes. Formed the balls and refrigerated it. This time it formed a nice ball with a skin.

[chrisgraff]

The steps outlined in PFTaylor's Pizza Raquel make a beautiful dough.  Works just fine with bread flour (or AP, for that matter).

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12875.0.html See reply #1

Follow the preparation steps from the first post.

[chickenparm]

I am wondering if your mixer would be better for mixing larger amounts of dough,instead of smaller ones.

I imagine,if your small doughball is getting pushed around,and around,its not going to do anything except continue to move around until you turn the machine off.Maybe the dough amounts is too small to mix or knead properly?Make a larger batch of dough so the machine can do its job.Then,cut up the dough into individual balls and put away for a cold rise,if thats your preference.

I use a bread machine to make 1-2 lbs of dough.I can make up to 3lbs but thats pushing it.The mixing bucket is very small,same with the kneading blade.Since its a very small mixing bucket,the dough,after it forms, gets slapped around for up to 30 minutes.It gets slapped around against the mixing bucket walls,and flips upside down at times,until the kneading is done.It gets a nice workout.

If the mixing bucket was bigger,I would imagine the dough would just get pushed around and around until the timer stopped.This is just a guess,I'm not for sure.

I hope some others with more knowledgeable ideas can help ya more.Good Luck!

[cartierusm]

I had my pizza party last night. The large batch of dough I made came out better but still a long way from where it needs to be. I think next week I'll find some local pizza joint and go it and see if they can teach me some things.

[chickenparm]

I had my pizza party last night. The large batch of dough I made came out better but still a long way from where it needs to be. I think next week I'll find some local pizza joint and go it and see if they can teach me some things.

What was better or different about your larger dough mix?

What do you feel could be improved for your doughs from there?

Keep in mind,most pizza joints mix very large amounts of dough in their mixers.It may not result in the same type of doughs as your machine at home.But then again,you may still learn something from it regardless.

When you have a dough ball right out of the machine,it is not ready.Let it proof a few hours at room temp in a bowl,or put away into the cold fridge for a day or so.When you take a cold dough out,let it warm up to room temps for an hour or so.A cold dough is hard to open and fights back.Sometimes,putting the cold bowl with the dough inside,on top of a stove while the stove is warming up, for about 30 minutes,helps too.

When the dough warms up it becomes a lot more elastic,extensible and doesn't tear or feel like rubber.

Its weird,I had a dough that was too extensible recently.It still made a nice pizza,but I was wondering what caused it to stretch so easily given it was a warm room rise of 4 hours.I normally make dough to put away for a cold rise,and not had a lot of room rise experience.Heres the link below.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15119.0.html

[barryvabeach]

I have had some problems with tearing, and at least for me, it usually because I have let it over rise.  In terms of kneading, make up a batch that will be big enough for 2 pies, and cut it in half before you start kneading, then mix one just until the dough looks smooth and shiny - ( maybe 3 to 4 minutes in your mixer ) and try double that time for the second half.  Try to get the end temperatures the same, and let them rise the same amount of time, and see the difference, if any, in handling and taste.  I did it a few times, and didn't find any benefit to the extra kneading.  I then did a similar experiment, but varied the time it sat at room temperature, and found that the one with the longer rise was over risen, and tore very easily.  It also helps to store the dough in a clear container so you can see when it has risen enough - for me if it goes more than double, it is usually very hard to work with, and 1 and 1/2 times is better for me. BTW, I usually only try a couple slices from each pie, and bring in the rest to work - you would be surprised how many people like cold pizza.

[chickenparm]

Barry,thats weird you posted that.For me,if a dough ball is over risen,and I use it,its super extensible.When picking it up to stretch,it becomes very large fast, and very thin.I have not had the tearing problems unless the dough was not developed.

[Essen1]

About 2 hours. I've got a new batch going tonight for my pizza party so we'll see how that goes. This last batch I mixed until it formed a rough ball, then I let rest 30 minutes, then mixed for like 10 minutes, then let it rest another 30 minutes. Formed the balls and refrigerated it. This time it formed a nice ball with a skin.

Cartierusm,

You didn't mention how long you let the dough rise in the fridge. But a couple of things caught my eye in your dough formula:

1. The salt level is a bit on the low side. I'd bump it up to at least 1.5%
2. I'd also increase the yeast to about .3%, maybe even .4% if you're using only a 24hr cold rise.

Lastly, I'd reduce the kneading time from 10 mins down to 8 mins max and would also give the finished dough an hour of bulk rise on the counter before dividing it into individual balls and stuffing it into the fridge.

[cartierusm]

Aside from the extra salt and yeast I've tried all those other options. I'm still working on it though, I'll report back when I've got something workable.

[jrovito]

I have been making the same recipe with the same flour for the past 2-3 months or so, about twice a week. So the only variation is the process.
And I am learning a lot about process!
I always do cold rise, minimum 24 hours.

I've had tearing three times:

1. Overmixing.
Some how, after my 12 min mix, the dough wasn't coming together properly. I weighed the dough, and realized I made a major mistake and the net weight was off my 10 0z. It obviously wasn't the flour, because the ball was way too dry. I added 10 oz of water, but it took  forever, remixing, to incorporate the additional water. Note: I immediately made a second batch, this time without mistakes, so I could compare over the next few days. The 'mistake' dough were I added 10 oz water later, and had to mix the crap out it, tore easily and frequently, over the next few days when I tried to use it. The control dough worked and stretched just fine.
Morale: Be careful with your measurements, and don't overmix.

2. Over rising in the fridge. I have been mixing 6 - 9 15 oz. balls at a time. Since I generally only toss 2-3 pies/session, and I can't eat the stuff everyday, sometimes it's in the fridge longer than it should be. I have found between Day 3 and Day 6 (if Day 0 is mixing Day) it dough will start to collapse under its weight and start to tear. It will still make pretty good pizza if you can manage the tears.  
Morale: Retarded dough is best between day 1 and day 3. If you use a lot of yeast, it might not make day 3.

3. Trying to stretch cold dough
I stretched a dough after only 20 minutes out of the fridge. And it tore like crazy. I was despondent as I had 8 more balls from the same batch. I thought I messed up the entire batch. I waited another 10 minutes, tried another ball, everything was fine. So were the next 5. From now on, I fire up the oven, then pull the dough out to acclimate - and don't start stretching until 40 -45 minutes out of the fridge. No mo tearing.
Morale: Let rest out of the fridge 45 minute minimum


Hope some of this helps.

-KJTI

[cartierusm]

Thanks for all the help.

Last week I ended up making a batch using the pizza/dough setting on my breadmaker, same recipe. That came out a little better. I was able to stretch it and not have it spring back as well as very minimal tearing. I think I'm on the right track.

This week I picked up 10 pounds of Guisto Pizza Flour I found at a local health food store. I'm going to try my recipe back in the kitchen aid and a batch in the breakmaker to see the difference as the breadmaker would make it very easy to make batches up.