Author Topic: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati  (Read 20686 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« on: December 25, 2008, 03:49:07 PM »
I really enjoyed the show and, wow, is Malnati a Chicago guy through and through.  There were a whole lot of stereotypical "my friend"s coming from his mouth.  Classic!  I was impressed at Flay's assistant knowing exactly what we know about the oil content of the dough, and the tomato soup comment on the sauce of Bobby's NY style slice was quite funny.  I loved how Malnati reached over and took about a fifth of Bobby Flay's dough out of the pan when he was patting out his first pie indicating that he had waaaay too much dough.  Interesting how Flay gave big props to the judges but even more so that producers would let that stay in the show.  For my own personal reasons, I'm not a Glen Kozlowski fan but he was rather entertaining as a judge.

There's one big thing that I did notice and wanted to discuss about the pizza, too.  I've always recognized the thin walls and very light color of the finished pie and watching this episode and seeing the process, I don't think that they use much yeast at all in the dough formulation.  Now Peter will know better than I how a small amount of yeast and possibly a same day rise will affect the finished pizza, but there appears to be very little oven spring and the lack of browning could come from the lack of sugars developed in fermentation.  Any thoughts?  Are we using too much yeast in our efforts to duplicate this dough?  Could they be using as little as .25% yeast...or less?  Would it still make a good tasting dough?

Loo
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!


Offline nite2332

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 18
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2008, 11:38:59 AM »
I saw that too.  It inspired me to make a deep dish this weekend.  Of course I'm using your recipe.  I didn't like the way Bobby's pizza looked.  It was too doughy; it looks more like a stuffed pizza rather than a deep dish.  Mark's looked great.  I'm going to try and post pics on Monday.  And this time, i'll drain the tomatoes before topping the pizza.  I'm not going to make that mistake again. 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 11:46:28 AM by nite2332 »

Offline jeff v

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1465
  • Location: Orland Park, IL
  • I'm Valentino not Varasano :)
    • Pizzeria Valentino
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2008, 11:48:41 AM »
I wish I could have seen this one, but alas I have sworn off cable.  :'( Hulu and Youtube help though.
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Deacon Volker

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 52
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 12:13:36 PM »
Hey another brother that's ditched the TV...I'll have to grab this episode via HULU as well ( if it's on ).  Thanks for the run down though, I loves me some good Lou's!  Thankfully we're only 2 hours from Chicago and have one still in college up there so trips "to the city" are not infrequent!

from Jeff V.  ( the III )

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22125
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 10:33:20 AM »
Loo,

When I saw the throwdown segment, I too couldn't help but notice the light coloration of the Malnati's crust. That prompted me to take a look at the Malnati's dough ingredients as I posted them recently at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7467.msg64252.html#msg64252. As can be seen there, there is neither sugar nor salt in the Malnati dough. The lack of sugar means that the crust coloration has to come from the type of flour used (I am assuming that the flour is all-purpose flour) and the amount of residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking. There are some simple sugars in the flour that get used up fairly quickly by the yeast during fermentation but the bulk of the sugar that ends up as residual sugar comes from the action of enzymes to convert damaged starch to simple sugars. That usually takes a fair amount of time to happen.

The lack of salt is also a contributing factor to final crust color. As is well known, salt regulates the fermentation process by its effect on yeast. In the absence of salt, the yeast can ferment without restraint. This means that the yeast can work even faster to consume sugars in the dough. The net effect is that the residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking may be low and result in a light colored crust. For those who are interested, this aspect of the effect of salt on crust coloration is discussed at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html.

Unfortunately, the above analysis does not tell us how Malnati's prepares and manages their dough. I can think of at least three ways to get the light colored crust. One way, for example, is to use a lot of yeast and a room temperature fermentation covering only a few hours. During that time, there will not be a lot of residual sugar in the dough (the time is too short to yield higher sugar levels) and the finished crust is very likely to be on the light side in terms of crust coloration. A second way is to use a small amount of yeast and a considerably longer room temperature fermentation. This is a harder process to manage because of variations in room temperature (seasonally and even intra-day) but should allow for more sugar from conversion from starch to feed the yeast. If that sugar is promptly consumed by the yeast, the finished crust can again be on the light colored side. A third way is to use cold fermentation of the dough with an amount of yeast governed by the desired overall duration of the cold fermentation. If that duration is long enough, the yeast can consume the sugars in the dough and the finished crust can again be of light color. Of the three methods, the last one is likely to be the easiest one to manage in a commercial, high volume setting for consistency of results and for dough inventory/yield management purposes, while also yielding sufficient byproducts of fermentation to produce a decently flavored finished crust. The least flavorful crust would be one using the first method, although using large quantities of yeast would itself contribute flavor (but of a "yeasty" nature) to the finished crust. I don't know if that is a characteristic of a Malnati's crust. The first method would also be impractical if Malnati's uses a commissary to prepare dough balls for their restaurants. As a practical matter, the first method would only work for in-store dough production.

As you know, many of our members prefer to use a combination of room temperature and cold fermentation with their deep-dish doughs. It is possible that Malnati's is using a short period of fermentation at room temperature, followed by a much longer period of cold fermentation, but I have not read anything anywhere to support this method. That method would have the advantage of kick starting the fermentation processs and would also allow the period of cold fermentation to be shortened to something that best fits Malnati's dough management schedule. For example, the total fermentation period could be cut to just a single day. The amount of yeast in this case would reflect that dough management schedule. All we know about the yeast quantity is that the yeast is the last item in the Malnati's dough ingredient list, and that there is less of it by weight than the amount of olive oil, which appears in the ingredients list just before the yeast. For the third method I described, and in answer to the original question you posed, I believe that it would be possible to use an amount of yeast that is considerably lower than what most of our members appear to be using. The amount would depend on the desired window of usability of the dough. I can't say from personal experience, but if I were to try an experiment along these lines, I might use IDY in a range of, say, 0.25-0.50%. This would be for a total fermentation period of about one day.

I might add that another benefit of the absence of salt is that the gluten matrix is not as strong as one when salt is present (salt strengthens the gluten matrix), so the ability of the dough to hold gases of fermentation is reduced. As a result, the finished crust will be less breadlike and more tender, which is what we want for an authentic deep-dish crust. This makes me wonder whether Rudy Malnati understood this effect, as well as the others discussed above, when he first came up with the Malnati dough recipe that is at the heart of the Malnati enterprise today.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:39:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 12:00:03 PM »
Saw that episode on the rerun 12/24 and they followed it with the Pizza tossing champion who also won the best pizza competition (he also beat out Flay). Bobby is an amazing chef ,however I found it interesting between the 2 shows how many times Flay looked befuddled with dough creation and how to handle it. Along with that how many times he said "I hate pizza" jokingly as  he ripped a huge hole in the dough :-D
Back to Malnati, That crust does look amazing and I hope the forum of experts here can recreate and post recipe. Bobbies was a modified pan pizza. Just My opinion Mean while I am sticking with you BTB.
Thanks
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 02:45:50 PM »
Along with that how many times he said "I hate pizza" jokingly as  he ripped a huge hole in the dough :-D

To add clarification to your statement, he only said "I hate pizza" one time (not counting the promo lead-in) during the Giorgio Giove episode and ironically after making the robiolo stuffed focaccia (http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/bobby-flay/robiolo-pizza-recipe2/index.html), what many would argue isn't a true pizza.  It was more like an Italian quesadilla. From Wikipedia: "Focaccia is related to pizza, but not considered to be the same." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focaccia)

That episode did not show Bobby ripping a hole in any dough.  In the Malnati episode, however, there was one occasion where he ripped the dough and the following was the dialogue:

Voiceover (Bobby): "Once the dough is finished rising, we find out just how different deep dish dough is."
Bobby: "See that's the problem with this dough.  It's so soft."
Voiceover (Bobby): "After some gentle coaxing I finally get the dough into the pan."

He obviously tried to treat the deep dish dough as though it was a strong New York dough by letting it drape over his knuckles.  A clear sign he isn't familiar with the dough's rheometry.

- red.november

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 730
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 03:51:27 PM »
It would be a little unusual for Bobby Flay to say he hated pizza in general since he started out working at a pizza parlor, although I suppose you could get enormously tired of certain food after working with it day after day.  But still ... it's pizza!!! :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Flay

P.S.  I think Red November is right about Flay's comments and attitude regarding the deep dish dough.  He should have known better anyway.  It's not like this was his first rodeo.  I saw him in Chicago in November 2002 when he was filming an episode of FoodNation at Gibson's steakhouse.  He also visited Gino's East in that same episode, so you would think he would have paid more attention and spent some time investigating a little more about how they made their food rather than just chatting it up for the cameras.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 04:48:13 PM »
Guys ,
Did not count november # of times.I have it recorded so I will make sure of any other fun comments I make. Sorry for any confusion I have caused anybody here on the forum. I was just watching to enjoy. Not anylizing the show, and Like I said. Flay said it  Jokingly, and I quess I tied the 2 episodes together. He's great. I am wrong
Can we all be friends? PNW
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 05:30:36 PM »
Guys ,
Did not count november # of times.I have it recorded so I will make sure of any other fun comments I make. Sorry for any confusion I have caused anybody here on the forum. I was just watching to enjoy. Not anylizing the show, and Like I said. Flay said it  Jokingly, and I quess I tied the 2 episodes together. He's great. I am wrong
Can we all be friends? PNW
John

I simply clarified your statement because I didn't want people thinking Bobby was repeatedly having problems with making pizza.  In fact, his single "I hate pizza" comment was a reaction to his assistant's critique of the focaccia's flavor.  The critique itself may have been a result of the type of "pizza" being made, and not a reflection on Bobby's pizza skills.  I wasn't focusing on the validity of your overall post, but instead providing context and additional information that people might be interested in knowing.

EDIT: By the way, I don't watch the show to analyze it either.  I just remember it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 05:33:33 PM by November »


Offline JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 06:33:14 PM »
So are we still friends
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline alconnell

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 07:59:53 PM »
This will be repeated on Friday Jan. 2nd at 2:30 PM EST according to my DISH network schedule.  Planning on recording it and appreciate ALL the comments here.
 ::)

Offline steve in FL

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Palm Harbor, FL
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2008, 12:17:01 PM »
The Malnati dough is posted on the Food Network site, and follows, however, most of the reviewers agree that it isn't the real McCoy, that he must have altered the recipe for publishing, because not one of the reviewers said the dough came out buttery/biscuit-like.

Malnati Pizza Dough, per Food Network:

    * 16 ounces water
    * 1/8-ounce yeast
    * 1/2-ounce salt
    * 2 pounds bread flour
    * 1/4 cup olive oil
    * 1/4 cup cornmeal

I came here to find a decent recipe for a biscuit-y dough, and hopefully will find one on this site somewhere.. :)

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2008, 02:50:00 PM »
That recipe has been pretty much disspelled as complete bunk.  In the prep there's no indication what to do with the corn meal and in the Malnati dough ingredients from their own "Lou to Go" pies (both in store sales and for national delivery) there is no salt.  There's also very little indication that they use bread flour.  They say that the recipe was given to them from Malnati's but it could've be a bit of a "misdirection" play.
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2008, 02:54:59 PM »
Is cornmeal a no-no? Some here say not to use right? Is it required to get the throw down pie shown on that episode?
Thanks
j
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2008, 03:01:11 PM »
Peter, thanks for the very in depth thoughts on what may be going on with their dough prep, it's great that you can take the time to share these theories.  I'm going to make a few pies next week using some these possible scenarios that you spelled out.  Sorry I have to make you wait but next week once the normal post-holiday routine resumes I'll have more time to do it right.  I'll be making 10", probaly sausage, but maybe pepperoni, pies.

Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2008, 03:02:27 PM »
Is cornmeal a no-no? Some here say not to use right? Is it required to get the throw down pie shown on that episode?
Thanks
j

Corn meal isn't a no-no, necessarily, but they do not use any at the big name deep dish restaurants.  Many here have used it with great success.
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2008, 03:06:14 PM »
Can you point me to a thread / recipe that uses it so I can give it a shot
Thanks Loo
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 730
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Let them eat pizza.

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 972
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: Bobby Flay Deep Dish Throwdown with Marc Malnati
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2008, 04:45:10 PM »
Steve in FL, you are confusing things.  The Food Network site posted Bobby Flay's not so very accurate or good recipe for Chicago deep dish pizza crust that he used on that episode, NOT Lou Malnati's pizza crust dough recipe.  Bobby Flay's staff found an old "copy-cat" recipe on the internet (for which there are hundreds) and all of them mistakenly put corn meal in the recipe.  (Just Google it yourself and you'll find that to be the case.)  My wild guess is that Bruno Pasquale himself, one of the judges on this episode itself, started that mistaken notion back 35 or 40 years ago when he first published a "Chicag Style deep dish pizza" recipe, albeit a "guesstimate" of the ingredients of the deep dish pizzas that he fell in love with as a younger man. For those non-believers, I encourage you to try making a deep dish pizza with corn meal.  I think most will find a not so good sandy and gritty feel or sensation to the dough.  But you never know until you try it.  I'm told, however, that a fine ground corn flour would be very different and interesting as a small additive, but haven't tried that to date.        --BTB       

Edit -- I may be getting my Bruno's mixed up.  It may have been Pat Bruno that wrote so much about Chgo deep dish and corn meal as an ingredient.  Also notice during the show that Marc Malnati had a ready made dough ball and never divulges the recipe for it.  That Food Network lead I think is bogus and as most or many of the reviewers said beneath that recipe ". . . . it doesn't taste anything like Malnati's."                     
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 08:14:39 AM by BTB »