Author Topic: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!  (Read 3385 times)

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Offline m_pizza

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Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« on: June 21, 2009, 01:33:27 PM »
Hello,

My dough recipe for one 250g 11-12" pie is

60/40 mix of bread & caputo 00 flour
65% hydration with room temp water
2% salt
0.4% ADY

I do a 20 minute autolyse then about 4 or 5,  5 minute periods of stretch & fold hand kneading with 15 minute breaks inbetween, before forming the dough balls and putting them in the fridge for a 24 hr rise.

I then do a counter rise for 1-2hrs and form my dough, and put the pizza on a 750F stone in the oven, with the pie taking around 2-2.5 mins to cook. However as you can see from the picture, I never get the huge, irregular bubbles that I see in other pizzas, with a nice puffy cornice and a very thin middle, but rather, with my pizza, the whole thing seems to rise with lots of tiny bubbles, with the cornice not even rising much more than the middle!

Any tips or advice from the experienced pizza makers would be greatly appreciated :)


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 01:41:41 PM »
Are you handling the fermented/proofed dough in any way that would force out trapped gas such as a rolling pin? Are you seeing much of a rise during the cold fermentation or the counter proof? If not, perhaps it is underfermented/proofed.
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Offline m_pizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 02:07:35 PM »
Bill,

Thanks for your fast response! I never use a rolling pin and am always very gentle with the dough. Usually there is a 50% size increase in the fridge, and a little more rise on the countertop. I have read on this site that a doubling or tripling in size is much too much. The last pies I form which have been out on the counter closer to 2hrs dont seem to be very different to the ones out for an hour.

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 04:23:15 PM »
Most perplexing...
Just my 2 cents, but respecting and agreeing with Bill's post, I would consider extending your rise somewhere in the process.  Maybe more time in the fridge or a longer counter rise or something like that, and not worry about the ball doubling in size.  In fact, based on your experience, you might shoot for at least doubling in size and see how that performs in the oven.
Good luck!
Hog

Offline scott r

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 09:07:06 AM »
I have read on this site that a doubling or tripling in size is much too much.



This statement is too general.  There are many factors involved in how much rise is appropriate, and considering you are using a single rise and more of a malted american bread flour than caputo flour in your dough I think you can go for a full double or more without having a problem.    I believe Pizzanapoletana was the person saying not to let the dough rise to a full double, but remember he was using only caputo flour, a double rise method with balling in between, tiny amounts of yeast, and a wild yeast culture.   


The easiest way to get larger voids without changing things too much would be to try the double rise room temp technique.   It seems like you are looking for roughly a 24 hour dough, so for that I would use .04% ady and keep your dough someplace cool like in your basement or near an air conditioner.  
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 09:16:40 AM by scott r »

Offline m_pizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 04:54:53 AM »
Hello,

Thank you all for the tips - I will try rising the dough more and see how things turn out.

Scott R - can I confirm how much yeast you thought was appropriate for a room temp 24hr rise - 0.04% or 0.4%?? When you refer to a "double rise" do you refer to a punchdown inbetween, or a balling of the individual doughs at the mid stage before the 2nd half of the rise?

Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 05:54:42 AM »
Hi M_pizza I was reading your last post and I can help you with achieving a 24 hour rise at room temperature.I would use cold water,0.1% ady and up the percentage of your salt to 2.7%.The cold water will slow down the yeast activity and the increase in salt will have the same effect on yeast activity.In addition do not knead or mix your dough as long as you do.The slightly underdeveloped dough will take a longer time to fully develop the gluten structure in the dough therefore allowing the dough a longer time to rise.In addition after the 24 hour rise I would refrigerate the dough for 12 hours then use dough a cold dough has tendency to bubble up when baked.
Good luck let me know how you make out.
Sabino

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 12:13:27 PM »
To me it looks like your not getting enough activity. I have had better luck in 24hr doughs with doing a bit of a bulk rise or a pre fridge rise of the individual balls.

While im not sure of your method or your complete recipe you did not indicate the use of any type of sugars. I do know it takes yeast longer to ferment if all they have to live off of is the natural sugars from the flour. And in my experience it takes longer for the process to start also. I assume your not adding sugars to keep from burning at that high of a temp.

As with anything I say you can take it with a grain of salt as I have zero experience with temps that high but I will press on.

As we all know gas production is caused by yeast activity. With no sugars to "jump start" the process or without a bulk rise your yeast are not getting a chance to get motivated. This is only reinforced by the immediate placement in the cold box.

There are a few things that could correct this problem.
1) Add a room temp pre-fridge "mini-rise". Just to get the ball rolling good.
2) Add sugars
3) Use more yeast.
4) longer countertop rise

At 2hrs on the countertop there should have been a good bit more activity than what your pie shows. For me I have been using 3hrs countertop time and that seems to work well as this puts me in the window where the yeast are all awake and doing their thing. I have even went out to 5hrs with no ill effect (except my last batch LOL).

I think of yeast activity in terms of a ... well its just easier to show you I guess.

This graphic is merely a tool to help give a mental picture of what is going on with the yeast. There are no measurements, this is not scientific. I repeat its just a mental picture.

As always this is just my own experience, there are those here who have forgotten more about pizza than I will ever know probably and may have thinga that are quite contrary to what im saying, I yeild to them and their knowledge of the subject. But my experiences lead me to believe what I have stated to be true.

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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 12:14:52 PM »
The vertical line would be where you pull from the fridge.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 01:49:03 PM »
m_pizza,

A few months ago, I made a pizza similar to the one you described except that I used bread flour fortified with vital wheat gluten, a little less salt, and I used some oil in the dough. I described my results at Reply 754 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg73368.html#msg73368. Based on my results, I don't think that there is anything fundamentally wrong with your dough formulation. ThunderStik has suggested that you use a period of fermentation before refrigerating the dough. However, with a 20-minute rest period (I assume the yeast was in the dough during that period), four to five stretch and folds each consuming about five minutes, and 15-minutes breaks between the stretch and folds, I estimate that the dough was at room temperature--and fermenting--for over 100 minutes before the dough went into the refrigerator. If I were to change anything in what you did, I think I would use considerably less hand kneading during the stretch and folds. Most stretch and folds I have seen tend to be brief in duration. With 250-gram (8.82-ounce) dough balls, I don't think you need to do a lot of hand kneading.

There are many causes for bubbling in the finished crust. The most common one, according to Tom Lehmann, is using a dough that is too cold. Some time ago, I copied and pasted Tom's exposition on this subject at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551. I have never been particularly successful in intentionally inducing very large bubbles in my finished crusts.

It's up to you whether you should use a long room temperature fermentation in your quest for large bubbles. I did a fair amount of experimentation on long room temperature fermented doughs and I believe they are among the hardest doughs to produce successfully, especially in a room that is very warm, as is the case where I live in Texas. I described the results of my experiments at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. Whereas sabinoappiza has indicated that he is able to use 0.10% ADY, along with using cold water, for a 24-hour room temperature fermentation, I found that I could not use anything close to that amount, even with a much lower hydration (55%) and water at 45 degrees F. In my case, with my particular circumstances, I used only 0.012% IDY. scott r's yeast usage (0.05% ADY, which I am sure is correct) is more than mine but no doubt where he lives in the Boston area it is cooler than where I am and he has also suggested that the dough be kept in a cool place like a basement or near an air conditioner.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 03:36:08 PM »
Pete,
       Even at 100 min on the countertop I would think that would be fine for a dough that has had some type of sugar added. But in my experience ( which is not a whole lot, but I have done it at least 2 times) with doughs without sugars it takes quite a bit longer for the ferm process to start and get geared up (pending yeast type and water temp etc...).

I dont think its really apples to apples is it? Or am I way off base and out of my league?


It kinda reminds me of my golf game. I have (or did have) a really great short game. All my friends used to ask me how to improve their short game. I simply told them to make your long ball game suck and your short game will improve. I was in trouble so much that I was used to getting out of it.

Anyway, the reason I say that is that I made 2 pies not more than 2 weeks ago that are very very similar to these. I have seen that outcome before. The dough was very lifeless and not active at all. The texture and rise at least by looks were almost identical to the pics shown. These were also with no pre-fridge rise and no sugars of any kind. This was after 4 days of ferm time in the fridge with .3% yeast and 60% hyd.


Comparing those 2 balls to the other 2  I made with 3 or 4% (cant remember right now) honey was night and day between those 2 different doughs.  But I do know that I have never had a hard time getting nice bubbles or a nice rim on any of my pies except for those 2 pies. They did not even resemble any of the pies I have posted up on this site thus far and at the time I didnt feel they warranted me taking pics of them. I wish I would have now.

Those dough used room temp water also and had a fairly good machine knead. I cant even believe that they would have even been useable the next day.

What im saying is not really contrary to what others are saying or have said. As in he needs more ferm time. What im trying to help with is getting this dough to work in the 24hr cycle a little easier and get the crust type that he has described in this period of time.

If im wrong by all means correct me.

Sorry for the long post.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 04:40:20 PM »
ThunderStik,

I think what is missing in your calculus is that sucrose is not a simple sugar, which is the only form of sugar that yeast uses as food. From what I have read, it takes anywhere from 6-8 hours for sucrose to be converted to simple sugars for the yeast to use as food and other purposes. Honey is different because it already contains a few simple sugars, including high levels of glucose, which the yeast can immediately use as food. A good thread to read on the use of sugar in dough is the one at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26479#26479. You should especially read the material from the theartisan.net website on the way that sugars in the flour are used and converted to provide food for the yeast. The use of honey is also discussed in that thread. For more information on yeast performance, see the Yeast Treatise at http://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm.

In m_pizza's case, during the roughly 100 minutes of pre-refrigeration time, the yeast will be fed during the roughly first 30 minutes by usable simple sugars already present in the flour, then by the simple sugars derived from the complex sugars, and finally by the simple sugars derived from the very complex sugars (which is the bulk of the sugar used by the yeast). If m_pizza added sucrose (table sugar) to his dough, it would take a fairly long time to convert to simple sugars--a process that would be slowed down (but not stopped) by the refrigeration. Sometimes people will add sucrose to a dough that is to be made and used within a few hours to get increased crust coloration only to discover that it doesn't work that well for that purpose. That is because the sucrose has to be converted to a simple sugar before it can serve as residual sugar at the time of baking. That is a point that Tom Lehmann makes in the abovereferenced thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26952#26952.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 05:40:45 PM »
Pete, when I stated "sugars" I was thinking honey, which is always what I use. So I should have clarified. Thats my fault.

I do know out of the the 2-3 times I have experimented with no honey the crusts have not been nearly as nice as far as oven spring and having the nice rim. Nor have the doughs been nearly as active during the countertop warmup.

I will continue to experiment further I guess.
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 05:48:09 PM »
M_pizza,

            Could you post your complete method?
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Offline m_pizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 05:56:33 AM »
Hello everyone

Thank you for all your advice again, I have just set off some dough rising, my first experiment as per all your advice will be a 24hr fridge rise with more yeast (0.6%), less kneading, with a longer pre-fridge rise and also a longer countertop rise afterwards. Depending on how that goes I will have a stab at a 24 hour warm rise with only a tiny amount of yeast , although this may prove difficult as I do not have a basement or anywhere particularly cool in my house!

My full dough procedure is as follows, in case it may help in diagnosing my problem.



1 Add 0.4% ADY and 2% sea salt to 65% room temp water. Leave for 5 minutes.

2 Mix in 70% of flour (This has varied but recently has been a 60/40 mix of bread to caputo 00) and mix with a spoon for a minute.

3 Leave for 20 minutes to autolyse.

4 Then add in around half of the remaining flour, mixing with a spoon for 5 minutes. Leave to rest (whilst covered) for 15 minutes.

5 Sprinkle some flour on dough and place on floured counter surface and hand knead by taking one corner of the dough and folding it into the middle, then  using the palm of the hand to knead/stretch the dough on the counter. Continue for 5 minutes. Let rest for 15. Repeat the knead and rest 2 more times, after which split the dough into balls, flour & knead for another minute to absorb any remaining flour, then put in lightly oiled, saran-wrap covered containers into a refridgerator.

6 Then post-cold rise - remove from fridge, remove dough from container and place on well floured surface covered with saran wrap for 1-2hours.

7 Then create the pizza base by pressing round near the edge of pizza in a circle w fingers to create the cornice (without touching or disturbing it) and doing the same in the middle of the dough, before stretching on the countertop or using knuckles if required

8 Placed on a peel ,dressed and put into a broiler compartment on clay tiles (@780-800F) a few inches away from the gas heat source above it (I dont know the temperature but pies take about 2-2.5 mins and you can see from the picture they are pretty well cooked)




...I felt a bit silly typing out the above technique I use so exactly, considering it isnt even producing very good results!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 09:31:03 AM »
m_pizza,

By posting the entire procedure you used, you brought to light the incorrect procedure you used, in item 1, to rehydrate your ADY. First, you should not combine the salt and ADY in the same water at the same time. You should use a small portion of the formula water, about 4-5 times the weight of the ADY, to rehydrate the ADY, and that water should be at about 105 degrees F, not 65 degrees F. The rehydration period should be about 10 minutes. The salt should either be dissolved in the portion of the formula water not used to rehydrate the ADY or added to the flour. Tom Lehmann discusses some of the problems when salt (and sugar as well) is combined in the rehydration water with the yeast at the middle of the PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=44454#44454.

I still think that you are kneading the dough too much during the stretch and fold operations.

If you implement the above suggestions and the problems still persist, then you may want to revisit how you bake the pizzas.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2009, 04:18:37 PM »

Scott R - can I confirm how much yeast you thought was appropriate for a room temp 24hr rise - 0.04% or 0.4%?? When you refer to a "double rise" do you refer to a punchdown inbetween, or a balling of the individual doughs at the mid stage before the 2nd half of the rise?

I was suggesting 0.04% yeast, and a balling of the dough after a initial rise of no more than double (preferably less).   

Depending on your room temp, what type of flour you use, and how your yeast was hydrated you should make it to 24 hrs when the dough is ready to go into the oven.  (it has risen close to double a second time)   


Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 03:04:38 AM »
I gave some advice to m_pizza that was incorrect on achieving a 24 hour room temp rise.I just finished with a pizza formula that I thought would produce a 24 hour room temp rise it failed. I was able to achieve a 14 hr room temp rise in my kitchen which was 75 degrees.I refrigerated all my ingredients flour,water,salt and yeast prior to using.I then scaled and mixed all my ingredients.My temperature of the dough off the mixer was 60 degrees.Then 14 hours later my dough had almost doubled in volume I punched the dough down and refrigerated for 8 hours.I then divided the dough and rounded into individual dough balls putting all but one dough ball back in fridge.I let dough ball rest at room temperature for one hour and 15 minutes.I have a gas oven  at home that I have altered and it reaches 690 degrees.The pizza baked in 4 minutes.I was real happy with finished product it was crispy with nice soft open crumb interior.My favorite dough that I have made to this date. I incorrectly suggested to m_pizza to use 0.1 % percent yeast to achieve a 24 hour room temp rise.The pizza below I used 0.07%yeast which is to much yeast to promote a 24 hr room temp rise.I am going make another batch of dough and use 0.04 % yeast as someone had suggested.I will let you know how I make out.The adjusted dough formula I will post below if anyone else wants to give it a try.
     
      1lb 8oz Giusto's Ultimate Performer High Gluten Flour
      15 1/2 oz Cold water (65%)
      3 tsp salt   (2.7%)
      1/16 tsp Active dry yeast (0.04%)
Sabino

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 08:56:30 AM »
sabinoapizza,

Thank you for the clarification and update. That explains a lot. I also agree that a long room-temperature fermentation does a lot for crust flavor. I think my higher room temperature in the summer isn't exactly the best for a pizza dough but my only other alternative would be to use my MR-138 unit to control the fermentation temperature. I decided against using that unit because I thought I would learn more about dough behavior in a high room temperature environment by modifying the dough formulation, especially the yeast quantity and water temperature, to perform in the higher temperature environment.

I look forward to seeing your next pizza with the lower yeast quantity.

Peter

Offline m_pizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 09:18:08 AM »
Hello all,

I have just tried baking a pie with 0.6% ADY dough that sat for 24 hours in the fridge, but with a longer pre-fridge rise and a longer (3+ hour!) countertop rise. My hopes were originally quite high as the dough looked more "bubbly" than usual but the dough was far too extensible and after considerable effort to get it onto the stone in one piece, the rise was still no better than usual. :(

I will be heeding Pete-zza's advice and my next experimental pie will be rehydrating ADY properly (if only I had known the proper rehydration method earlier!) or perhaps using IDY mixed directly into the dry flour instead, and I will also have a stab at a room temperature rise. I will hopefully return back next time with more positive results  :D
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 09:25:39 AM by m_pizza »

Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2009, 02:45:39 AM »
Hi Everyone I attempted to achieve a a 24 hour room temp rise.I was able to let the dough rise for 19 hours outside fridge.I then degassed dough rounded into individual dough and put them in fridge.I baked pizza off the next day this dough had been in fridge for 10 hours. I was happy with pizza it achevied decent oven spring and had a great flavor.The crust was more chewy and tougher than usual.I use high amounts of salt in my dough but it is in the exceptable limit there are pizzeria' in Italy that use up to 3% salt in there doughs to retard fermentation rate.I find this amount of salt is just right for my taste.This dough was good but not my favorite.I enjoy my pizza when the crust is crispy not crunchy and has a softer interior and is a little chewy. The previous pizza I made acevied a 14 hour room temp rise and was put in fridge for around ten hours.The 14 hour room temp rise of the dough produced an great crust with all the characteristics I am looking for.I have enclosed a picture of this pie.
Chow
Sabinoapizza
Sabino

Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2009, 02:49:14 AM »
I accidental posted my 14 hour room temperature rise pizza.I will post the 19hr room temperature rise pizza below.
Sabino

Offline m_pizza

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Re: Lots of small bubbles in my crust, no big ones!
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2009, 10:13:35 AM »
Hello,

I am reporting back having experimented a little more and I think Pete-zza has cracked my problem - I think it was the incorrect activation of the ADY. I tried using 0.5% IDY today mixed into the dry flour (I used 75% Type 55 French flour, 25% regular bread) with 66% lukewarm water and 2% salt. It underwent a 16 hour cold rise then 1.5 hour countertop (I was being impatient!)

The difference was huge - previously when I take my dough with hte incorrectly activated ADY out of the fridge, it is very wet and ulta extensible to the point of being unworkable. It is also usually also very gummy. This time the dough despite being a little wetter than usual, was very dry and easily came out the container onto the bench (usually it is a struggle taking it out). The dough was also much easier to work with - I could shape it much more easily than usual. The pie cooked in just under 2 minutes.

There was much more cornice rise than usual with bigger bubbles, although there were not huge bubbles all the way round, there were certainly a few areas with nice big voids. The people who ate it also commented on the additional airiness.

I have attatched a picture, and I am much more happy with my results now, so I would like to say thanks to everyone, especially Pete-zza, and my next experiment will be with a 24 hour room temp rise. I would also suggest people try sourcing some Type 55 French flour as it is very tasty!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 10:39:10 AM by m_pizza »


 

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