Author Topic: starter dough  (Read 2380 times)

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Offline artigiano

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starter dough
« on: December 28, 2008, 07:24:23 PM »
Neapolitan style dough with aboutn 25 hr fermentation.  22 hour bulk rise plus 3 hour individual ball rise.  I used around 2.75% Camaldoli starter and I do not believe the starter to give the dough a very noticeable difference in flavour but it does seem to create more air in the dough.  During the winter I do not use my brick oven but I am sure that with the high heat this would be an incredibly light and tasty dough. I was unable to find a calculator that includes pre ferment calculation even though I thought there was one.  I only came across the Lehmann.. can anyone point me in the right direction?

cheers, al


Online Pete-zza

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 07:36:38 PM »
Al,

Here is a link to all of the dough calculating tools, including the preferment dough calculating tool: http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html

Peter

Offline artigiano

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2008, 11:52:09 PM »
thanks Pete

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 12:00:17 PM »
2.75% is a very low percentage of starter,  I believe Varasano is using 40%,  I think you'll see MUCH greater flavor with higer percentages,  I've gone from 20% to 25% to 30% to 40%. 

Offline andreguidon

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 03:18:51 PM »
40% ??? wow !! thats allot.... i use 5% and going to lower cause its over fermenting wen i make 20h dough room temp (some times i need to puts the dough in the fridge) .... tonight iam making a batch for 10 pizzas, and thinking of using 4% to bake tomorrow....

my recipe is :

100% flour
62% water
2% salt
5 or 4% starter (usually 75% hydration)

12 to 16h bulk and 4h ball rise.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline anton-luigi

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 03:44:45 PM »
Well,  I guess I should have stated that this is for a NY style cold fermented dough,  not a neapolitan style room temp ferment dough.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2009, 04:08:57 PM »
2.75% is a very low percentage of starter,  I believe Varasano is using 40%,  I think you'll see MUCH greater flavor with higer percentages,  I've gone from 20% to 25% to 30% to 40%. 


anton-luigi,

At one point, Jeff Varasano did use a lot of starter material. My recollection is that it was around 40%. However, he later very substantially reduced the amount, I believe during the exercise in which pftaylor and Jeff tried to recreate the Patsy's dough and devoted an entire thread to that exercise. If you are interested, I think you can find the shift to using less starter culture in the Patsy's Reverse Engineering thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.0.html.

Marco (pizzanapoletana) recommends that the starter culture be used at very low levels, pretty much for only leavening purposes and for mild flavor contribution to the finished crust. His recommended amount is 1-5% of the weight of the formula water (not formula flour). The high end of that range would typically apply in the winter where more starter is needed to counteract cooler temperatures, and the low end of the range would typically apply in the summer where less starter is needed because of the warmer temperatures. This, of course, is all with respect to room temperature fermentation as is used in Naples. Once you get to preferment levels, such as you are using, then there are other effects that are imparted to the dough, including higher acidity levels and gluten tightening effects, and quite possibly various kinds of crust flavors. Marco would argue that you are making bread dough at those levels, not pizza dough. For example, see Marco's reply to one of my posts on this point, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3153.msg26814.html#msg26814.

Al (artigiano) did not indicate whether his 2.75% starter is with respect to the weight of formula water or with respect to the weight of the formula flour, but either way I think his usage is not in the preferment range but in the leavening-only range.

Peter

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2009, 04:12:18 PM »
Well,  I guess I should have stated that this is for a NY style cold fermented dough,  not a neapolitan style room temp ferment dough.

anton-luigi,

I missed your follow-up post, but the range for preferments that I have seen is about 15-20%. However, you can go above that amount along the lines you mentioned.

Peter


Offline artigiano

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2009, 04:45:29 PM »
Guys it was in the weight of flour, sorry about that.

Offline andreguidon

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 09:01:20 PM »
my 5% is to 100% of the flour......
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Offline anton-luigi

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Re: starter dough
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 12:45:18 PM »
anton-luigi,

At one point, Jeff Varasano did use a lot of starter material. My recollection is that it was around 40%. However, he later very substantially reduced the amount, I believe during the exercise in which pftaylor and Jeff tried to recreate the Patsy's dough and devoted an entire thread to that exercise. If you are interested, I think you can find the shift to using less starter culture in the Patsy's Reverse Engineering thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.0.html.

Marco (pizzanapoletana) recommends that the starter culture be used at very low levels, pretty much for only leavening purposes and for mild flavor contribution to the finished crust. His recommended amount is 1-5% of the weight of the formula water (not formula flour). The high end of that range would typically apply in the winter where more starter is needed to counteract cooler temperatures, and the low end of the range would typically apply in the summer where less starter is needed because of the warmer temperatures. This, of course, is all with respect to room temperature fermentation as is used in Naples. Once you get to preferment levels, such as you are using, then there are other effects that are imparted to the dough, including higher acidity levels and gluten tightening effects, and quite possibly various kinds of crust flavors. Marco would argue that you are making bread dough at those levels, not pizza dough. For example, see Marco's reply to one of my posts on this point, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3153.msg26814.html#msg26814.

Al (artigiano) did not indicate whether his 2.75% starter is with respect to the weight of formula water or with respect to the weight of the formula flour, but either way I think his usage is not in the preferment range but in the leavening-only range.

Peter

Thanks Pete,  I will go through those threads when I get a chance.  I havent really had too much of a problem with acidity or gluten issues at this point.(at least that I am aware of)!!!   


 

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