Author Topic: what kind of improvements are made when using a starter? poolish and biga?  (Read 4752 times)

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Offline koloa101

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hi,
before i dive into using starters for my pizza's. what kinds of improvements are made? is this how i can get the dough to have a sourdough flavor? does starters improve crust color?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: what kind of improvements are made when using a starter? poolish and biga?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2008, 10:06:06 PM »
koloa101,

Because of the technical complexities of natural starters and preferments such as biga and poolish, I do not normally advocate that beginning pizza makers use starters and preferments until they have mastered the basics of dough making using commercial yeast (the straight dough method). However, it is your call. As background, I suggest that you read as much as possible on the subject, using the search feature on the forum as well as Google and similar searches where you will find a lot of information on starters/sourdough and preferments and their perceived benefits. You should also read the definitions given in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html for the terms biga, levain, pate fermente (chef or old dough), poolish, preferment and sponge. If you would like to take a stab at making a pizza dough based on using a preferment, such as a poolish, I suggest that you try JerryMac's dough recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html. That should give you a general idea as to what to expect.

In general, I think that you will discover that natural starters and preferments contribute mostly to the flavor, taste, aroma and texture of a finished crust. In my experience, preferments can be hard on sugar retention in the dough and that, as a result, finished crusts can actually be lighter in color than crusts made using other methods. There are ways of correcting such problems but they are not necessarily simple expedients. Often, dough formulations, ingredients and/or sequences have to be modified.

For a good book on natural starters, I suggest that you consider Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdoughs (http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Sourdoughs-Home-Bakers-Handbook/dp/1580083447/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230692366&sr=1-1).

Peter

Offline pftaylor

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what kind of improvements are made when using a starter? poolish and biga?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2008, 07:34:03 AM »
koala 101,
I agree with what Pete-zza stated and want to add a few important tidbits I have learned along the way:

1) The main problem with starters, poolishes, and bigas is where does one begin their understanding. The area of study is so large and complicated with so many overlapping terms and divergent opinions that my head was spinning for months. So the first decision I had to make was should I listen to bakers or pizzamakers? Both camps are convinced they are right so you will no doubt have to experiment for yourself. Personally, I have to admit my pizzamaking results mirror the findings of pizzanapoletana almost to the letter.

Generally that means I have settled in the camp of wild yeast starters are primarily for pizza and everything else is primarily better suited for bread or baguettes. I know this is a huge over simplification, but in the end that is what I uncovered in my kitchen. That is my opinion.

2) Your stated goal of creating a sourdough flavor is most easily achieved with a poolish or a biga and not a starter. My research has confirmed that if you want a distinct sourdough-ish flavor then by all means use a poolish or biga and not a wild yeast starter. Why? Well they tend to produce a more yeasty flavor and aroma while still producing a fine pizza crust albeit a little more crunchy than I like and a lot more dense than I like (especially with a cold rise). My experience has shown when a poolish is used in the normal amounts of say 20% or higher of the flour weight, then there is but one outcome whether you utilize a cold or room temperature rise - an overload on yeastiness type flavor. Which is great if that is what you want. Me? I can't stand it.

3) A pizza starter, when used properly, will not produce a yeasty bread type flavor. That is because it produces a more lactic acid flavor which is much more pleasing for me. I really like how a lactic acid type crust gangs up with creamy mozzarella to offset the acidic tomatoes on Pizza Raquel.

4) Another point I would like to make is that a long room temperature rise tends to make a more digestible crust due to the enzymes breaking down the complex sugars (carbohydrates) in the flour. That statement stands true whether you use a starter, poolish, or biga. The difference is that a poolish or biga produce a much stronger type taste than a starter.

I trust this helps,
pftaylor
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: what kind of improvements are made when using a starter? poolish and biga?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2008, 09:10:40 AM »
Reading pftaylor's comments and observations, I would like to add a few additional comments of my own.

First, what we know about the use of preferments based on commercial yeast, like poolish and biga, comes from the bread world, not the pizza world. Likewise, the concept of autolyse comes from the bread world (specifically, from the French Professor Raymond Calvel in the 1970s), not the pizza world. Whether embodying bread making principles into pizza making is a good thing or a bad thing is something that each person has to decide for himself or herself. More than once I have commented that a pizza crust I made based on using bread making principles like poolish and biga tasted like a baguette. See, for example, Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62944.html#msg62944, Reply 145 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg31549/topicseen.html#msg31549, and Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.msg24019/topicseen.html#msg24019. In addition to what I said earlier about the effects of preferments on crust coloration, I would agree with pftaylor on other crust characteristics that are common when using preferments, such as a denser crust and a chewier crust. I suspect that I could work out some of these kinks but it would take far more work and time than I would like to devote to the exercise. I perhaps would have to get Professor Calvel's book, The Taste of Bread, to better understand how do do this.

Second, there is obviously great interest among our members in using natural starter cultures, such as the Ischia, Camaldoli (Italian starters) and other commercial and even home-grown starter cultures. In fact, I would go so far as to say that there are far more members on this forum who are using natural starter cultures to make pizza dough than pizza professionals around the world who openly say, or don't deny, that they are using natural starters. What has to be kept in mind, however, that it is a chore for most home pizza makers, especially those who don't use natural starters to make breads and the like on a fairly regular basis, to establish and maintain a natural starter. If you have the time and the desire, you can successfully make and maintain a natural starter and use it to make pizza dough. However, if you lack either the time or the desire, you are not likely to succeed for long. It is for this reason that I believe that most casual home pizza makers are better off using a commercially leavened preferment like a poolish or sponge or even a biga or old dough rather than a natural starter. Yes, the flavors and other attributes of the finished crust will be different than using a small amount of a natural starter to leaven the dough, but the flavors will still be quite good nonetheless, at least in my opinion. Another alternative to using commercially leavened preferments is to use small amounts of commercial yeast in a long, room temperature fermentation. By "long", I mean about 20-24 hours. This is a method I recently described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. If you would like to use a cold fermentation, then the closest that I was able to come to natural starters and preferments in a straight dough process was using the various techniques and tricks described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html.

Third, as far as a "sourdough" flavor is concerned, there are many forms that that flavor can take. It can be a mild or strong. A "strong" sourdough flavor would be like the classic San Francisco sourdough bread flavor. However, when I made pizza dough with that type of flavor, I did not like the taste of the crust at all. So, that is something to consider when experimenting with different cultures to get the desired degree of sourdough flavor. But even that is easier said than done.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Just a brief clarification:

Fermentation agent : Commercial vs Wild yeasts (First choice to make)

Dough Management: Direct Metod (or I may add a semi-direct) vs Indirect such as Biga, Poolish,etc.. (Second choice to make).


You can make a combination of choices from the above and one does not exclude any other.

For example, an indirect wild yeast dough for bread give you the most exceptional product as, IMO, does a semidirect (my definition of what I do) with wild yeast for pizza.

Happy new year.

Marco

Offline koloa101

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peter, pftaylor, and marco,
thanks for the information, really appreciate it! it will take some time to digest.

over my 2 week Christmas vacation, other than pizza, i also attempted baking ciabatta and a baguette using a biga, poolish, and prefermante(will post pics soon). I have the bread bakers apprentice book by peter rienhart, how baking works, and a few other bread baking books that i picked up over the years. now that i have time, i get to experiment and do a lot of baking.

i plan on ordering the italian starters from sourdo. is that the Ischia and Camaldoli? I don't believe they mention the type on the website. once the yeast comes, can i activate/feed them during the work week, or is it best to wait till the weekend?

thanks all!

Offline koloa101

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found my answer!, disregard last comments.