Author Topic: First wild yeast Neapolitan pizza (Read 3265 times)

AZ-Buckeye · « **on:** January 08, 2009, 11:22:35 AM »

Thanks to info from Pete and November, I made my first all wild yeast - no commercial yeast pizzas a few days ago. Formula (in baker's percentages) for 6 310g doughballs as follows:

1108 g Caputo flour (100%)
720 g water (65%)
30 g sea salt (2.75%)
55 g Camaldoli starter (5%)

My procedure was to first dissolve salt in water, then add 75% of the flour. Mix this with paddle of KitchenAid mixer on lowest speed for about 2 minutes and let set covered for 20 minutes. Start to mix again with dough hook on second lowest speed adding all of Camaldoli and gradually sprinkling in rest of flour. Mixed for about 10 minutes total. Did a 19 hour bulk rise and a 5 hour dough ball rise at about 67 degree room temp.

First, my starter did not appear all that active. I did a few feedings over a couple of days but never got the starter to come near overflowing the jar. It is still quite young (less than a month). Also, over the 24 hour fermentation, neither the bulk dough nor the balls rose very much at all. However, the dough aroma was intoxicating. Something I had never experienced using commercial yeast. Also, the dough texture was incredible. Just silky smooth.

I also was able to stretch the dough balls quite easily into 11 to 12 inch skins. (something that has been a problem for me in the past). Cooked for about 1 1/2 minutes in my wood oven. The temp of the oven was a little less than 800 deg. -- not as high as I like (primarily because I was in a hurry to get things done before the football game started). Even so, got good rise out of the crust (and the largest air holes to date) and good charing.

The taste of the dough was better than with commercial yeast although tough to explain. Wasn't yeasty but still had a distinct although mild flavor. Perhaps slightly too salty. Overall, I'm very pleased with this as a starting point in my learning process. A few questions --

Should the dough have risen more during fermentation and what impact does minimal rise have on the outcome?

Would reducing the salt to 2% help in the rise?

My limited understanding of a complicated subject is that it is best to reduce the starter to the smallest amount possible because this will leave more sugar in the dough and lead to more flavor. Is this correct and, despite the low rise I experienced, should I reduce the starter to closer to 3%?

Any help is greatly appreciated. This sight is truly incredible.

andreguidon · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2009, 12:01:19 PM »

i think 2% is better.... and for sure the dough will rise more....

Pete-zza · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2009, 12:41:54 PM »

Marianne,

My use of natural starters has not been frequent enough and intensive enough to be able to speak as authoritatively as others on the forum, but I too have experienced many cases where the naturally leavened dough did not rise that much. Yet, the results were invariably very good, with good crumb volume and crust flavor and texture, especially considering that I was using a standard home oven. Oddly, I have on occasion experienced the same reduction of dough volume using commercial yeast, but in an unorthodox and unconventional way (like using ADY in a nonrehydrated form), and also got a good finished product.

It has also been my experience, as I have noted on the forum several times before, that using a naturally leavened dough seems to lead to a better handling dough, much as you experienced.

With respect to the amount of salt, it is my understanding that it is a common practice in the preparation of authentic Neapolitan doughs that are to be fermented at room temperature to adjust the salt levels to control the rate of fermentation of the dough. This appears to be done seasonally, for example, by reducing the amount of salt in the winter to speed up the rate of fermentation and by increasing the amount in the summer to slow down the rate of fermentation. So, with winter upon us, you might want to reduce the salt to something around 2%, or perhaps even a bit lower. That should also help reduce the degree of saltiness of the finished crust.

In due course, you may want to reduce the amount of your starter once it gets to the point where you can use it reliably. However, I believe that the amount of the starter is related more to issues of dough strength and acid production. That is, once the starter amount reaches preferment levels, acid levels increase and can cause strengthening of the dough by tightening up the protein and creating a gluten matrix with higher elasticity. The higher acid levels and other biochemical byproducts of fermentation can also lead to more intense flavors in the finished crust. By keeping the amount of starter on the low side, the effect of the starter is to effectively serve only as a leavening agent, with a mild flavor profile for the finished crust. At the moment, your use of starter represents about 8% of the formula water. What pizzanapoletana (Marco) recommends is up to 5% of the formula water. I would tend to use the higher end of the range in the winter, and a lesser amount in the summer.

Peter

AZ-Buckeye · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2009, 01:07:14 PM »

Thanks, Peter and Andre.

Actually, Peter, I just noticed an error in my original post. The amount of flour and water in grams was 1109g and 720g respectively. That puts the starter at the 5% I posted. Seems like I should leave everything constant (given the cooler weather) except decrease the salt to 2% for my next try.

breadhead · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2009, 02:28:51 AM »

Hi to all. I'm new to pizza but bake sourdough bread. Where does the 5% starter formula come from? When I make my bread I develop flavor/texture in the starter portion of the dough and then proceed quicker on the dough end. My starter ends up being about 25% of the total dough weight. My starter develops over a twelve to sixteen hour period. This way there is more yeast and bacteria during the bulk to get a better rise without the loss of flavor. What do you all think?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:25:39 AM »

Quote from: breadhead on February 12, 2009, 02:28:51 AM

Where does the 5% starter formula come from?

breadhead,

The 5% figure originated with pizzanapoletana (Marco), who introduced the forum to the idea of using natural starters at very low, non-preferment levels--up to 5% of the weight of the formula water (the Neapolitan method is to measure ingredient quantities with respect to the formula water, not the formula flour or total dough weight). One of the early references appeared at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915/topicseen.html#msg12915 (50 grams of starter for one liter of water). Remember, the 5% figure is the upper limit, and is one that would be used most commonly in cooler weather where you want to accelerate the fermentation process. In warmer weather, lower values would be used to slow down the fermentation process. In your case, you are using your starter culture at preferment levels where you get effects beyond leavening, such as greater acid production, gluten strengthening effects, etc. At levels up to 5% of the weight of formula water, you get principally leavening effects and a milder overall crust flavor because of less acid production and other byproducts of fermentation.

Peter

breadhead · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2009, 12:50:18 PM »

Thanks pete-zaa, I've been reading through the threads - very interesting. One area to explore, maybe, is the technique used in naturally leavened traditional pannetone. They use a wild yeast culture and manage to eliminate the sourness associated with natural leavening. I read somewhere that they build their culture every two hours to get a max yeast count and zero sour profile. It makes some sense because the wild yeast develops quicker than LAB. Just a thought.

BTW, this is a great board and I'm glad I stumbled upon it - tons of knowledge and passion about pizza. which we know is a perfect food.

PizzaBrasil · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2009, 06:58:20 AM »

Breadhead:
There is a lot of work to get the proper panettone, as the use of a cell to control the temperature and humidity during fermentation and rise. However it worth this work.
Searching by panettone in this site you could reach the recipe, tricks and pictures.
Once tried, there is no return <g>

Luis

Tiramisu · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2009, 01:02:22 AM »

I always wondered about the rise of a natural yeast myself. I have been using the Ischia Island starter for about a year now and it hardly rises at all. I always wondered if I was doing something wrong but the taste is great so I stopped worrying about it.

s00da · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2009, 02:14:50 AM »

Tiramisu,

I'm currently trying the Ischia for the first time and I think this thread might interest you: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7859.0.html

s00da

Matthew · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:59:56 AM »

Quote from: Tiramisu on February 15, 2009, 01:02:22 AM

I always wondered about the rise of a natural yeast myself. I have been using the Ischia Island starter for about a year now and it hardly rises at all. I always wondered if I was doing something wrong but the taste is great so I stopped worrying about it.

Try playing around with the fermentation temps. The picture that you see below is a dough that fermented for 48 hours @ 65 degrees made with Camoldoli only as the levening agent . The masking tape depicts the height of the dough prior to fermentation. I had similar results using Ischia as well at 70 degrees for about 24 hours.

Tiramisu · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2009, 01:06:54 PM »

70 degrees..quite a bit different from what I have been doing. I have been putting it in the fridge for 24 hours, then 5-6 hours at room temp before using. I will give your method a try and let you know the results. Thanks!

Matthew · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2009, 03:21:42 PM »

Quote from: Tiramisu on February 15, 2009, 01:06:54 PM

70 degrees..quite a bit different from what I have been doing. I have been putting it in the fridge for 24 hours, then 5-6 hours at room temp before using. I will give your method a try and let you know the results. Thanks!

Are you also using commercial yeast? If you were using Ischia on its own & then placing the dough in the fridge at temperatures of roughly 40-45 deg it would be dormant & you would likely not see any rise at all. Commercial yeast on the other hand is still active at that temperature, so any rise in your dough would be a direct result of your commercial yeast.

Tiramisu · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2009, 03:37:05 PM »

Hi Matthew. Well I guess I have been doing it all wrong then! I have been using the Ischia starter the whole time with the fridge ferment. I am only using a smidge of IDY along with the Ischia. Thanks for pointing this out to me. This hobby is a constant learning process.

breadhead · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2009, 01:04:44 AM »

Just in the process of making my first wild yeast pizza dough. I think I've made my first mistake by using 5% starter based on water weight. Thought I read that here somewhere. But the lead post takes the percentage from the flour. Should still work.

Matthew · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2009, 06:29:43 AM »

Quote from: breadhead on February 19, 2009, 01:04:44 AM

Just in the process of making my first wild yeast pizza dough. I think I've made my first mistake by using 5% starter based on water weight. Thought I read that here somewhere. But the lead post takes the percentage from the flour. Should still work.

I believe that what you are looking for is stated on reply #25 by Pete.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7859.20.html

Matt

Tiramisu · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2009, 05:53:09 PM »

Matthew,

Last weekend I made five pies using your 70 degree 24 hour batch method. I did a 24 hour batch ferment then formed dough balls and let it sit in the proofing box for about 5 hours before using. It worked like a charm and I got a huge rise out of the ischia island yeast. Taste and structure was fantastic. Thanks for pointing out the errors I have been making!

M

Matthew · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:00:05 PM »

Quote from: Tiramisu on February 27, 2009, 05:53:09 PM

Matthew,

Last weekend I made five pies using your 70 degree 24 hour batch method. I did a 24 hour batch ferment then formed dough balls and let it sit in the proofing box for about 5 hours before using. It worked like a charm and I got a huge rise out of the ischia island yeast. Taste and structure was fantastic. Thanks for pointing out the errors I have been making!

M

No problem at all. Bill/SFNM deserves all the credit, I merely adapted his regimen. Thanks Bill!

Matt

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:07:03 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on February 27, 2009, 06:00:05 PM

No problem at all. Bill/SFNM deserves all the credit, I merely adapted his regimen. Thanks Bill!

Matt

And marco deserves immense credit for making the Ischia culture available. The more you use it, the better you'll get at bringing out its best characteristics. It can be extremely responsive to very slight adjustments.

Bill/SFNM

Matthew · « **Reply #19 on:** February 28, 2009, 06:47:47 AM »

Quote from: Bill/SFNM on February 27, 2009, 07:07:03 PM

And marco deserves immense credit for making the Ischia culture available. The more you use it, the better you'll get at bringing out its best characteristics. It can be extremely responsive to very slight adjustments.

Bill/SFNM

I couldn't agree more. It definitely brings your pizza dough to the next level.