Author Topic: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.  (Read 5247 times)

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Offline JohnLondon

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Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« on: January 10, 2009, 04:29:39 AM »
I am tempted to try the papa john recipe.I would like to make it as an emergency dough.How do you work out what quantity of yeast to use, and is the yeast content the only change that would need to be made?


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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 09:22:52 AM »
JohnLondon,

What do you mean by "emergency" dough in this case in terms of hours of fermentation, and which Papa John's dough recipe do you want to use? Just about any dough recipe can be converted to an emergency recipe, usually by dramatically increasing the amount of yeast and using water at above average temperature. I don't know how a PJ clone dough will adapt to a very short fermentation time. The shortest fermentation time that I used for a PJ clone dough was eight hours, at room temperature, as I described at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59357.html#msg59357. I am sure that a much shorter fermentation time will work with some adjustment of the PJ dough formulation and dough management, but the finished crust may not be like an authentic Papa John's dough, which typically undergoes 3-8 days of cold fermentation. In fact, at two days, the dough will not even work because of insufficient fermentation. 

Peter

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 09:49:04 AM »
JohnLondon,

After posting, I went back to my notes and saw that I made a poolish version of a PJ clone dough where the dough was made in about 7 hours at room temperature. I did not post the dough formulation because I did not deem the finished pizza to be worthy enough because it was not authentic enough. It looked like an authentic PJ pizza and it tasted fine but my goal was to try to make a clone that was as close as possible to an authentic PJ pizza and the poolish version just didn't make the cut. However, I did post a photo of the pizza at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335.html#msg58335.

Peter

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 01:23:03 PM »
Thta looks REALLY nice  :pizza: .

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 02:03:00 PM »
JohnLondon,

The American style pizza dough, such as used by Papa John's (and also Domino's), contains a lot of sugar, so it is best baked on a pizza screen. If baked on a pizza stone, it is possible that the bottom crust will brown prematurely, or actually burn and turn black, before the rest of the pizza is finished baking, resulting in doughy, underbaked sections of the crust. Do you have a pizza screen and, if so, what size is it? Also, what size pizza are you after, and are you hand kneading or machine kneading and, if a machine, what kind is it?

Peter

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 02:53:08 PM »
Hand mixing/kneading.No pizza screen, just the pans with the holes underneath.12" in size.

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 02:59:54 PM »
JohnLondon,

How many hours represents an emergency dough in your case? Also, can you give me a rough idea as to the temperature in your kitchen this time of year?

Peter
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 03:10:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 05:09:37 PM »
Kitchen is quite warm, I would say mid 60s ...that a guess, but thats about the best I can do.I would say a maximum of 9 hours for the dough.

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 06:34:45 PM »
JohnLondon,

I think I may have a dough recipe for you. It's the one at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59357.html#msg59357. However, for a 12" size rather than the 14" size described in that post, and for the temperature of your kitchen, the following modified dough formulation produced by the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html may work:

Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.15%):
Salt (1.50%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (171.15%):
271.75 g  |  9.59 oz | 0.6 lbs
157.62 g  |  5.56 oz | 0.35 lbs
0.41 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
4.08 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
19.84 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.37 tsp | 1.46 tbsp
11.41 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.86 tsp | 0.95 tbsp
465.1 g | 16.41 oz | 1.03 lbs | TF = 0.1450587
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.142915: bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note from the above table that I increased the amount of IDY from 0.10%, which is a summertime version of the recipe, to 0.15%, for a wintertime version. I have not tried that version yet, so you may have to monitor the dough during its room temperature fermentation to see how the dough progresses. I would expect the dough to double at some point during the period of fermentation. That would be the time to punch it down and let it rise again until it doubles again or stops rising and stabilizes. After the second expansion, you should not punch the dough down again. It should be handled gently at this point, as discussed in Reply 24 referenced above. If everything goes well, the total fermentation time should be within the 9 hour window you specified. If I were making the dough, I would use the poppy seed method to monitor the volume expansion of the dough. That would tell us what we might reasonably expect next time the recipe is used, as well as tell us whether the recipe will need adjustment next time to keep everything within the 9 hour window. The amount of IDY specified in the above table, 0.14 teaspoon, is a bit more than 1/8 teaspoon. For everything but the flour and water, I would use the volume measurements specified.

To prepare the dough, you should generally follow the instructions given in Reply 24 referenced above, but make changes to reflect the fact that you will be hand kneading the dough instead of using a stand mixer. For instructions on hand kneading the dough, I suggest that you follow the instructions that I gave for hand kneading for the recipe (the Peter Reinhart American style dough recipe) at Reply 44 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672. Since that recipe calls for using milk, you should ignore the part of the instructions directed to the milk. I would add the IDY to either the flour or to the water. I don't think that really matters. Also, for the temperature you indicated for your kitchen this time of year, I suggest that you use a water temperature of about 105 degrees F (about 41 degrees C). Ideally, we would be looking for a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F (around 27 degrees C)

Since you only have the 12" perforated pan, I would use that pan to bake the pizza, using the oven temperature and rack positioning described in the abovereferenced posts. You may need to monitor the bake time and the crust color development during baking in your particular oven so that both the top and bottom crusts have the desired color when the pizza is done baking.

If I neglected to cover any material point, or if you have any questions before proceeding, feel free to let me know.

Peter

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2009, 05:36:40 AM »
Thank you Peter,you are (to use an American term) awesome  ;D.


Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 07:24:37 AM »
Dough is formed.Will let you know what its like tonight  :).

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2009, 08:08:52 AM »
Thank you Peter,you are (to use an American term) awesome.

JohnLondon,

Thank you for the compliment but I would rather wait to see the results before I take a bow. With you somewhere in the UK using UK ingredients and with me behind a keyboard in Texas but pretending I am in your kitchen (which is why I asked you about your room temperature), it is hard to tell what results to expect. There is certainly a technical and scientific aspect to pizza making (it is really a biochemistry and physics exercise) but there is also a fair amount of art and "feel" that you have to develop to be successful, along with reliance on common sense.

I didn't mention it in my last post but to achieve authenticity with a PJ clone pizza you also want to get the amount of cheese and sauce right such that the total weight of the pizza approximates that of an authentic PJ pizza of the same type (e.g., pepperoni) and size. In your case, with a 12" pizza, you will, of course use proportionately less cheese and sauce than I used for a 14" PJ clone. One reasonably accurate way to do this for our purposes is described by Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=28686#28686./ Applying that method to our case, the amount of cheese I used for a 14" pizza in Reply 24, 9 ounces, converts to [(9/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) x (3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 6.61 ounces] (187.4 grams) for the 12" size, and the amount of sauce, 5 ounces, converts to [(6/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) x (3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 4.41 ounces] (125 grams) for the 12" size. (Actually, the math simplifies to 9 x 36/49 for the cheese and 6 x 36/49 for the sauce). For authenticity purposes, you would dice the cheese, although using shredded cheese should be close enough.

You should also try to use a PJ Dustinator clone flour blend if you can. That imparts its own flavor and texture profile to the finished pizza and is an integral part of an authentic PJ crust.

Peter

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2009, 08:58:37 AM »
Thanks Peter, I must say that whilst an exact PJ clone would be great. A nice ,tasty pizza in the PJ stylewould be great too.
Can I ask a question about placement in the oven. I have been cooking the pizza on the middles shelf, and whilst the top has a pretty nice colour to it, the underside is white.It still tastes OK, but would be nice to have a bit of a crispiness to it.
Now I understand that what I am cooking the pizza on plays a part, but I assume also that whereabouts in the oven I cook it also plays a part??

If its lower down, Im gueesing the bottom would be done quicker than the top?Conversely if I place it on the top shelf ,the top would be done before the bottom??

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2009, 09:44:07 AM »
JohnLondon,

Generally speaking, I have had good results baking the PJ clone pizzas for the whole time on the pizza screen placed on the lowest oven rack position of my oven (electric). However, sometimes I will move a pizza baked on the lowest oven rack position to the topmost oven rack position to get more top bake for a final minute or two. An example where I might do this in the context of a PJ clone pizza is where there are a lot of toppings on the pizza and I want to be sure that they cook properly, that the cheese gets adequate melting and browning, and that the top of the crust gets more browning if needed.

A specific example of where I did the above for a PJ clone pizza is described in Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762. As you will see from that post, there were a lot of toppings, including tomatoes and onions with a high moisture content, and the pizza before baking weighed about 47 ounces (1332 grams). From that figure and from experience, I suspected that I would need the combination of bottom and top baking in my oven. This is one of those areas where you have to use common sense. You watch what is happening and make adjustments as warranted. In my case, I examine the bottom of the crust after about 5-6 minutes. If it not quite browned yet, I leave the pizza where it is. If it is adequately browned but I need or would like more top crust browning or the toppings need more cooking (or drying out), I move the pizza to the topmost oven rack position and very carefully monitor its progress for about another minute or so. The top heat works quickly so you have to watch the top of the pizza so that you don't get too much top crust browning or overcooking of the cheese to the point where it either gets too dark and crusty or breaks down and releases oil onto the pizza (this is more common for lower quality cheeses). Sometimes it is a fairly delicate balancing act, but that is often what you have to do when baking in a home oven that was not designed for baking pizzas. Also, ovens vary from one type and from one model to another, which may necessitate making mid-course adjustments based on the results you are observing.

I neglected in my prior posts to ask you whether you have actually had a Papa John's pizza where you live in the UK. For some reason, the greatest interest in replicating the Papa John's clone pizzas I have made to date has come from outside the U.S., including Turkey, South Africa, Ecuador, Brazil, and now the UK. Is there something about Papa John's pizzas that engenders that interest by those outside of the U.S.?

Peter

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2009, 09:54:50 AM »
Its been 3 hours now, and the dough doesnt seem to have increased any  :-\


Yeah, we have PJ pizza here in the UK . Not as widespread as Pizza Hut or Dominos though.

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2009, 09:57:51 AM »
JohnLondon,

Supplementing my last post, in Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60076.html#msg60076 I described another PJ clone pizza that was baked on the bottom and top oven rack positions in my oven. In that case, the "balance" was getting adequate crust browning and cheese melting while cooking and drying off a lot of vegetables with high water content. It will usually take a few tries with a particular style of pizza to get that balance right. The pizza shown in Reply 41 was my first try with the particular toppings used.

Peter

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2009, 10:09:10 AM »
Its been 3 hours now, and the dough doesnt seem to have increased any  :-\


JohnLondon,

Are you using the poppy seed method? If not, it is often hard to tell that the dough is actually increasing in volume. What typically happens is that the dough ball going into the container starts out as a round ball but then slouches and spreads out to the sides of the container, making it difficult to know what is really happening. It is also possible in your case that your kitchen is on the cool side. One way to combat that is to turn your oven on at low temperature for a few minutes, turn it off, and put the container of dough in the oven. However, I would delay doing this until you are certain that the dough is not rising as it should. In my case, based on the poppy seed spacing, it took 5 1/2 hours for the dough to double.

Peter

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 10:17:46 AM »
What typically happens is that the dough ball going into the container starts out as a round ball but then slouches and spreads out to the sides of the container

This SEEMS to be whats happening

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2009, 10:50:02 AM »
JohnLondon,

Doughs fermented at room temperature are among the most difficult to make because of the wide variations in room temperature over the course of a year, and even over the course of a day. For example, recently, just in the course of a couple of days, the outdoor temperature where I live in Texas went from around 70 degrees F (around 21 degrees C) to around 35 degrees F (about 1.7 degrees C). My heating system tries to adjust but my kitchen temperature is still lower on the colder days than on the warmer days. One handy appliance that I constructed to deal with cool kitchen temperatures, and that I think all serious home pizza makers should consider, is shown at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887 (and upgraded to include a viewing window as shown in Reply 69 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49752/topicseen.html#msg49752). 

Peter

Offline JohnLondon

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Re: Adjusting recipes -fermentation time.
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2009, 04:44:02 PM »
I have just finished the pizza. I must say it tasted fantastic. I used a sauce that I made myself  :chef: I was a bit wary of the amount of sauce/cheese recommended...and I didnt have quite the amount of cheese stated but it was great.The underside could still have done with  a bit more cooking.I cooked it on the bottom shelf for 5 minutes,then moved it up to the middle for the remainder of the time,if I'd have left it any longer the top would have burnt.I can honestly say its the best home made pizza I have ever had .Thanks Peter for all the advice and help.


 

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