I'm about to throw a 2 pound dough ball across the room!!

[LisaMT]

Hi,

I am attempting to make Randy's PJ pizza dough. I followed the instructions implicitly and now I am trying to stretch the dough.  It won't move. I got it to a point where it was about 10" in diameter. The middle was thin and the ends were thick so I tried to even it out. The middle tore and I tried to repair. I became so frustrated I just balled it up, and am letting it rest. This is the second time I have done this, I try to stretch in stages letting it rest before I stretch it some more.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Lisa

[Pete-zza]

Lisa,

There are a few versions of Randy's PJ clone recipe on the forum as it evolved over time. Which one are you using? And at what point did you have problems shaping and stretching the dough?

Peter

[LisaMT]

Ugh, I used the very first one he posted (tried to post link, but I guess I am too new).I had problems right from the start. The dough itself looks great, but when I put it on the bench it won't move. I just balled it up again, put in back in the container and will let it rise. Will this make the dough too tough.

[Pete-zza]

Lisa,

Now that you have five posts, I believe you should be able to post the link to Randy's recipe.

It is still not clear at what juncture you had the problem with shaping. Was it after it had been refrigerated for one or more days and you were trying to make a skin out of it?

Peter

[LisaMT]

This the recipe I used:
16 oz High Gluten Flour (Hard Red Spring Wheat)

9.7  oz Water by weight(warm 120deg.  F)

2 TBS  raw sugar

1 TBS Honey

1 Tablespoon  Classico Olive Oil

2  Teaspoon Salt

1 package SAF Perfect Rise or Gourmet yeast

Mix flour and salt.  Put yeast and half the flour in the mixer.  Mix the sugar and honey into the hot water.  Pour mixture into bowl and place mixer using dough hook on stir for about 2 minutes.  Stop mixer. Add Olive oil and the rest of the flour, then set mixer to knead.  Knead for 6  minutes stop mixer for 5 minutes then start mixer back on knead speed for 6 more minutes.  If the dough is sticking to the bottom of the bowl add a tablespoon of flour or more until the dough patch beneath the ball is say the size of a silver dollar.  You may need to add water.  Finish knead on a lightly floured surface and shape into a ball  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil. for overnight up to three days.

Remove 3  hours before panning
Remove from the fridge and either divide dough in half on a slightly wet marble or counter for two 12” pizzas or leave whole for one somewhat thicker 16” pizza.  Work each piece of dough into balls with wet hands.  Let rest for three hours

I removed the dough from the refrigerator 3 hours ago (I made it last night). When I took it out of the container the dough was at room temperature and this is when my troubles began.  I am not that good at stretching dough, but I was always able to make it work. Now, I put the dough on the counter and using my fingers i can push it out to a small thick round. This is about as far as I can go. When I start to stretch the dough will rip. I wish I could find my camera so I could show you, sorry for the cryptic description.

[Pete-zza]

Lisa,

When you removed the dough from the container to work with it, did you re-knead or re-work the dough before trying to open it up to form a skin?

Peter

[LisaMT]

After I took it out of the frig I reworked to form a ball. The dough rose during the 3 hours and when I took it out of the container I put it on the counter; I did not rework or knead I used my fingers and pushed the dough to the thick round. This is about as far as I can go, the dough just seems to rip when I pick up and begin to stretch. I am pulling very little as I turn the dough.

[Pete-zza]

Lisa,

When you made the dough, did you weigh the flour and water on a scale? And did you measure the temperature of the water (120 degrees F)? And did you use the SAF yeast or some other brand of instant dry yeast (IDY)?

Peter

[LisaMT]

Yes, I weighed the flour and water, I used KASL, tap water that was exactly 120 degrees and SAF yeast. The only thing different was the sugar. I did not have raw so I used regular table sugar. Sorry, I guess I should have mentioned that, but did not think about it until I pasted the recipe in a previous post. Since I have been posting I am trying to stretch the dough; it is working if I let it rest for a few minutes between stretches. It is not round, it looks more like an amoeba.

[Pete-zza]

Lisa,

The sugar substitution was not the problem. If I had to guess, when you first reworked the dough ball before letting it warm up, you may have reoriented the gluten structure. That will result in an overly elastic and "bucky" dough that resists shaping and stretching without tearing. It is possible to let the dough warm up again, but it can sometimes take several hours for the gluten to relax again so that the dough can be handled in a more or less normal manner. If your kitchen area is cool, that can extend the warm-up time.

Peter

[LisaMT]

Thanks for all your help Pete. I made the pizza after using the stretch and wait method. It was thicker in some areas, but all in all I was able to make a round pizza that tasted much better than it looked.

Thanks again,
Lisa

[pizzaland]

I am new here and just ready your fustration because I get that too. I do know this your dough should shine and you should be able to tear a piece into a window shape and be able to see through it. I feel your fustration especially the ingredience your using! How did your pizza come out anyway?


   

[buzz]

Personally, I never use bread flour because: 1. the best pizzeria pizza I've ever had uses AP and 2. for me, the result is way too dense and chewy. If you try AP, you might have a better time of it. Also, try a very long (4-8 hours) room temperature rise, then punch the dough down and let it rest for about 10 minutes or so. It should roll out very nicely.

[Pete-zza]

buzz,

Lisa is trying to replicate a Papa John's pizza, using Randy's PJ clone dough recipe to do so. In the early days, PJ's used a hard red spring wheat flour, which most interpreted to mean a high-gluten flour. Now, their flour is a proprietary high protein flour (e.g., see http://papajohnspizza.supersites.ca/papajohnsstory/). Tom Lehmann says that he has looked closely at the PJ product and believes that the PJ flour has a protein content of about 13-13.2% (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=27372#27372), which would put the PJ flour a bit above the protein range of bread flour. I believe that all of the flours mentioned by Tom are bromated flours, which, if correct, would not be flours used by PJ since they do not use bromated flours. I have made several PJ clone doughs/pizzas using bread flour or bread flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten, all with very good results. Also, because the PJ doughs contain a lot of sugar and oil, the crust/crumb is soft and tender and not overly chewy.

Of course, Lisa is free to try other flours, including all-purpose flour, but doing so would take her away from a truer PJ clone.

Peter

[Jose L. Piedra]

buzz,

Lisa is trying to replicate a Papa John's pizza, using Randy's PJ clone dough recipe to do so. In the early days, PJ's used a hard red spring wheat flour, which most interpreted to mean a high-gluten flour. Now, their flour is a proprietary high protein flour (e.g., see http://papajohnspizza.supersites.ca/papajohnsstory/). Tom Lehmann says that he has looked closely at the PJ product and believes that the PJ flour has a protein content of about 13-13.2% (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=27372#27372), which would put the PJ flour a bit above the protein range of bread flour. [...] Of course, Lisa is free to try other flours, including all-purpose flour, but doing so would take her away from a truer PJ clone.

Peter

I'm not sure if Buzz is suggesting that PJ's uses AP flour or something like it. In any case, "hard red spring flour" does definitely indicate a bread flour or something stronger, but by itself the protein content of the proprietary flour they're using now does not rule out the possibility that it's made of a blend of hard and soft wheat. It is the use of soft wheat, not the protein content, that gives AP flour its characteristic handling and baking properties. I know because, as circumstance as would have it, I've used AP flours with a rated protein content of >13% and they still behave like stereotypical AP flour (less gas retention, crust coloration, etc.).

Hope this helps,

-JLP

[buzz]

Gotcha--I didn't realize she was trying to replicate a certain pizza brand!