Author Topic: Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)  (Read 13001 times)

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Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2006, 04:47:39 PM »
I didn't go back to check to see if your recipe (if posted) included oil.  I was just speaking in general.  Most people use oil (myself included), and therefore won't experience capillary action within their dough, which is why I ruled it out in the general case.  In the specific case of no oil, it is definitely a possible vector.

EDIT:

Ah, that's right, you're using non-rehydrated ADY and cool water, rather than warm water.  That means you have clumps of dead yeast cells surrounding a minority of live ones.  The live cells very near the surface have the disadvantage of having moisture face them from just the bottom, rather than from the top and bottom.  Any cell membrane fissures that don't become fully hydrated risk experiencing a full rupture during thermal changes.  Your mixing and kneading process may only be enough to break apart the cell clumps, but not long enough to offer full contact between water and yeast before settling in their resting place.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 05:07:32 PM by November »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2006, 05:28:07 PM »
giotto,

Like you, I often make cold fermented doughs that use cold water and small amounts of yeast and, to be honest, I often can't tell whether the dough has grown, or by how much, while in the refrigerator. In my case, the inability to detect the growth may be due to the containers I typically use to store my dough balls. I use fairly oversized metal or plastic lidded containers. When the dough balls go into the containers, they are round and elastic and hard to flatten but over time they spread and slump to fill the spaces in the container around the dough, making it problematic to detect the extent of dough growth. This has never been a problem from a performance standpoint so I haven't concerned myself that I couldn't always detect or accurately measure growth of the dough. I suppose I would have to use a tall straight-sided container with a much smaller diameter than I now use to accentuate the growth dimension of the dough to confirm that there is actual growth. I suspect that there is growth in my case but it isn't easily visually discernible in many, if not most, cases where I am using cold water and small amounts of yeast.

I would estimate that over ninety percent of what I have read on the subject of bubbling in pizza crusts has centered on cold dough or underfermentation or too much yeast or excessive oven heat as the most frequent causes of most bubbling. You might recall that in an earlier post I noted that you do not let your dough balls warm up all that much (about one-half hour) before shaping. Also, you frequently (almost always?) use a pre-bake. In your recent post in which you presented the Harvest King dough formulation, at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4284.msg36146.html#msg36146, you indicated a pre-bake temperature of 530 degrees F. I wondered whether the combination of the cold dough and the high-temperature "naked" pre-bake were the cause of the blistering or major contributors thereto. This begs the question of whether you have ever used the Harvest King (or other) dough formulation to make a fully dressed pizza before baking and, if so, whether you got the blistering.

I might add that one of our members, in a PM to me a few months ago, indicated that he had tried well over 100 pizzas in an effort to intentionally provoke bubbling in his finished crusts. He was more interested in the big bubbles rather than small blisters. He varied just about everything that could be varied but was unsuccessful. I believe he was using the Lehmann dough formulation, which led me to wonder whether some dough formulations are more, or less, prone to bubbling and blistering than others. I had read something somewhere to that effect so I was prepared to accept the possibility until I could find the answer on my own. As noted previously, my efforts to intentionally provoke bubbling and blistering by doing all of the things that are said to contribute to bubbling and blistering did not succeed. Like November, I have tended to get the blistering from doughs at the tail end of fermentation, just as I did recently with a 12+-day old dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 09:01:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2006, 06:30:13 PM »
Peter,

Just as a point of delineation, I think the causes of bubbling as you described, and blistering are not the same.  To understand the difference, consider that for blistering the condition is a pre-forming phenomenon, while bubbling is largely a forming phenomenon; meaning that what causes the blistering starts before the dough is formed into the crust, and what causes the bubbling is more likely a result of the forming itself.  Imagine there is a liquid vacuole structure just beneath the very top macromolecular layer of dough, formed in the event of protoplasmic evacuation or over-accumulation of byproducts.  It's radii and inter-distances are determined by cell colony population at the surface.  The inter-distances are not much greater than the thickness of the layer holding the liquid in place, so in effect, if you were to examine the dough using magnetic resonance imaging, you would notice tiny liquid-filled cells in a network similar to a very thick-walled honeycomb.  Once you stretch the dough, the radii and inter-distances increase causing the blisters to form approximately a few millimeters apart during baking.

Bubbling on the other hand seems to occur based more on how the dough is formed into the final shape.  Not to mention there is a need for a large, open gluten structure to accomplish this.  I hope we're talking about the same surface effect here.

- red.november

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2006, 07:02:36 PM »
November,

Thanks for clarifying the distinction. I was originally referring to the blistering effect as you described it and as shown in giotto's photo in Reply 16. Often what I have read on the subject has tended to lump blistering and bubbling together, possibly because pizza operators often use those terms interchangeably to describe their problems. Since the answers often used the same terms, I assumed that the causes of both conditions were pretty much the same. I don't recall a distinction between bubbles and blisters in the sense of blisters that we have been discussing.

Based on what you now know about giotto's dough formulation and dough processing, can you venture an opinion on what is behind the blistering, that is, is it the use of non-rehydrated ADY and cool water and the effects they create?

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2006, 07:29:22 PM »
Peter,

After taking another look at the recipe and seeing the differences between Randy and giotto's processes, I'm almost positive it has to do with using cold water with non-rehydrated ADY.  It's the one difference that sticks out that could conceivably create the conditions for blistering.  A yeast cell's chances of making it through thermal shock are much greater if it's had a chance to mend any membrane fissures.  Warm rehydration helps to ensure this happens.

- red.november

EDIT:

If it were a volume phenomenon versus a surface phenomenon, the condition would still manifest itself if giotto were to turn the dough inside-out before forming the crust.  That's why I brought it up earlier.  If he does that, and still observes the blistering, it's a result of something else.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 07:33:40 PM by November »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2006, 07:49:20 PM »
November,

The matter of blistering was on my mind because of the interest that was expressed by member DNA Dan in the blistering that the Round Table pizza crusts exhibit. Dan is hell bent on replicating the blistering, which apparently is a hallmark of the RT crusts. I thought that it might have been poor dough management. Apparently it isn't. Dan tried the Harvest King flour, so maybe he can try giotto's dough preparation.

I might add that when I made the recent 12+-day dough that yielded decent blistering, I made the top of the dough, with all the yeast detritus, etc., the bottom of the skin. I, too, used cold water and added the yeast at the end of the dough making process, but in my case it was IDY, not ADY.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2006, 08:06:57 PM »
Peter,

I should have pointed out that the top surface and the bottom surface (save for capillary action) will tend to experience the same issues when it comes to temperature and hydration.  In fact, with solid conduction being a more efficient mode of thermal transfer (as opposed to fluid conduction), the bottom would probably suffer more thermal shock, unless it's plastic, in which case it will be the same for top and bottom.  That's why I specifically suggested turning the dough inside-out, rather than just flipping the dough over.

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2006, 08:16:10 PM »
November,

Assuming that your analysis is correct, is there any basis to conclude that the degree of blistering will be greater for non-rehydrated ADY than IDY (also non-rehydrated), possibly because ADY has more dead cells and also possibly because of the different strains and particle shapes?

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2006, 08:40:46 PM »
Peter,

I believe Randy was using non-rehydrated ADY and didn't experience blistering, so my analysis is dependent largely on the fact it was cold water that was used.  Even IDY instructions direct the baker to use water in the 80-90 F range.  Using non-rehydrated ADY and cold water just exacerbates the problem (from the perspective of it being undesired).  Strains do play a significant roll, but I wasn't going to get into that.  Since ADY contains about 70% dead cells, the problem would be greater with ADY than IDY.  However, in your case it's possible your dough blistered for the very same reason mine blisters on occasion: over-fermentation.  I've gotten to the point where I can just look at my dough as it sits on the bench and know if it's going to blister.  The dough falls a bit and the reflective qualities of the dough (through the oil layer) change slightly.

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2006, 08:56:18 PM »
November,

It may not be of any consequence, but in response to a question I posed to Randy before, he said that he uses the SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise yeast. That yeast is treated by SAF as an "all-purpose" yeast that can be used in recipes calling for any type of yeast. However, since SAF suggests using less of it when substituting it for ADY or as a substitute for IDY or rapid-rise yeasts, I tend to view it more like IDY (http://www.safyeast.com/tips_using.html).

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 01:04:41 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2006, 09:14:06 PM »
Peter,

It could be of consequence.  I didn't catch the part where SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise was considered to be the same as IDY.  That makes sense.  It's yet another level of differentiation.

- red.november

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2006, 11:34:23 PM »
As Pete-zza mentioned, cool water and oven procedures are consistent in my past (as is refrigeration); but proofing is something I consistently did in the past, and blistering did occur.

Is it possible for someone to take a bunch of dead yeast cells, spread them across half the dough's outer edge, and identify the difference after oven time?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 12:46:11 AM by giotto »

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2006, 11:44:15 PM »
ADY and use of cool water is something I have done on a regular basis in the past [...] and I did get blistering in the past with proofing

But did you get blistering when not using a combination of ADY and cold water, irrespective of proofing?

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2006, 12:34:25 AM »
I've used cool water too frequently to answer that question. I proofed the active yeast in the past because I worked with more of a bulk yeast and I wanted to test it first.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 12:40:23 AM by giotto »

Offline Randy

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2006, 07:19:16 AM »
I like the big bubbles my recipe produces, with some as large as one inch or even two across.  I watch people pick out a slice and a big void piece is quick to go.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2006, 03:40:55 PM »
 >:D yea I'm still here. Ditto that Randy. I have actually been playing with a variation between your recipe and the RT clone to compare the differences. The RT clone tastes more like RT, while your recipe is a closer match to the amount of bubbling that occurs. (Not blistering!). I must say, Randy's recipe is almost impossible to retard once it gets started. I had this thing in the fridge overnight and it still doubled in size!

I am watching this ADY yeast reconstitution thing with a close eye. Whenever I use ADY in my recipes I ALWAYS reconstitute it in warm water for ~10 minutes before adding it to my dry ingredients. My crust is always silky smooth.

I will have to try adding it directly to the flour. This makes perfect sense for a commercial pizza setup since their doughs are usually pre-formulated in bags and they just add water. Whether that water is cold or not may make all the difference, although I must say there is a fair amount of heat generated from the mixing action of a dough hook.

Offline Randy

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2006, 05:23:02 PM »
DNA Dan, try the new recipe referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4284.msg35772.html#msg35772.  It reduces the yeast but still has the large bubbles.  This new flour has me planning on a new round of test
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 02:00:45 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2006, 12:41:19 AM »
While kids and parents enjoy some of the more famous American styles out there and have certainly enjoyed my latest formula due to presentation, lightness and taste, others prefer a harder interior among other changes that I make. Since people can report completely different results when trying to duplicate a recipe depending on flour used and texture preferred, my earlier post serves to help people adjust according to their custom requirements.  Less oil, for example, harder interior, more oil, softer interior. Really airy breads like Ciabatta are professional produced and recommended time and again by a myriad of good authors with very minimal mix times.

I'm happy to see that King Arthur has moved into Smart & Final, Trader Joes, and even now at local basic grocery stores. It's caused others like Gold Medal to raise the bar. Although I've seen plenty of blogs that really enjoyed their past best of bread label.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 12:43:03 AM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2006, 10:39:24 PM »
I made a couple more doughs with the formula and procedures posted earlier (at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4284.msg36146.html#msg36146); but I proofed the 1 tsp of active yeast in a couple of tablespoons of 103F water first (with a touch of sugar), and mixed the dough with 90F water (instead of cool water) to see if blisters would still occur on the crust.

I made one dough after allowing it to sit for 75 or so minutes in my 69F room. It didn't look double the size; but it had expanded. I layed it out by hand and employed the usual oven procedures and screen. It had good spring and color; but no bubbles. I delivered it to a friend.

I placed the other dough in a bag 20 minutes after it was mixed and placed it in the refrigerator overnight. The next day (20 hours later), it looked like a blow fish when I removed it from the refrigerator (very noticeable expansion). I layed it out by hand into a small circle and let it sit for 2 hours at room temp inside a cloth. I then stretched it by hand and cooked it with the same oven procedures and screen. I received similar oven spring; but the overnight refrigeration gave me the same blisters noted in my earlier post.

So regardless whether I proof or not, use warm or cool water, receive growth in the refrigerator or not, I consistently get blisters with refrigeration and Active Dry Yeast. Here's a couple of pictures after refrigeration, which includes a slice:

http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/copy-king-harv.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/copy-king-harv-slice.JPG

Happy New Years all! :chef:
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 01:28:42 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2007, 03:45:12 PM »
Giotto,

So let's get this straight. You made one dough by reconstituting ADY in a few TBSPs warm water with some sugar added. You made the dough with warm water, (90F) then processed the dough in one of two ways:

1) 75 minute proof @ 69F then made pizza = No blistering
2) 20 minute RT proof, cooler overnight, 2 hr RT proof, then made pizza = Blistering

Is that correct? If so, that would indicate that the blistering you are getting is the result of over-fermentation and not the yeast or water temps used.  Do you have any pics of the non-blistered dough for comparison?

Also, can you provide some details of your oven setup and times,temps used for cooking. There may be something else about your process that helps contribute to this.