Author Topic: Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)  (Read 17603 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2006, 07:49:20 PM »
November,

The matter of blistering was on my mind because of the interest that was expressed by member DNA Dan in the blistering that the Round Table pizza crusts exhibit. Dan is hell bent on replicating the blistering, which apparently is a hallmark of the RT crusts. I thought that it might have been poor dough management. Apparently it isn't. Dan tried the Harvest King flour, so maybe he can try giotto's dough preparation.

I might add that when I made the recent 12+-day dough that yielded decent blistering, I made the top of the dough, with all the yeast detritus, etc., the bottom of the skin. I, too, used cold water and added the yeast at the end of the dough making process, but in my case it was IDY, not ADY.

Peter


Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2006, 08:06:57 PM »
Peter,

I should have pointed out that the top surface and the bottom surface (save for capillary action) will tend to experience the same issues when it comes to temperature and hydration.  In fact, with solid conduction being a more efficient mode of thermal transfer (as opposed to fluid conduction), the bottom would probably suffer more thermal shock, unless it's plastic, in which case it will be the same for top and bottom.  That's why I specifically suggested turning the dough inside-out, rather than just flipping the dough over.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2006, 08:16:10 PM »
November,

Assuming that your analysis is correct, is there any basis to conclude that the degree of blistering will be greater for non-rehydrated ADY than IDY (also non-rehydrated), possibly because ADY has more dead cells and also possibly because of the different strains and particle shapes?

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2006, 08:40:46 PM »
Peter,

I believe Randy was using non-rehydrated ADY and didn't experience blistering, so my analysis is dependent largely on the fact it was cold water that was used.  Even IDY instructions direct the baker to use water in the 80-90 F range.  Using non-rehydrated ADY and cold water just exacerbates the problem (from the perspective of it being undesired).  Strains do play a significant role, but I wasn't going to get into that.  Since ADY contains about 70% dead cells, the problem would be greater with ADY than IDY.  However, in your case it's possible your dough blistered for the very same reason mine blisters on occasion: over-fermentation.  I've gotten to the point where I can just look at my dough as it sits on the bench and know if it's going to blister.  The dough falls a bit and the reflective qualities of the dough (through the oil layer) change slightly.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2006, 08:56:18 PM »
November,

It may not be of any consequence, but in response to a question I posed to Randy before, he said that he uses the SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise yeast. That yeast is treated by SAF as an "all-purpose" yeast that can be used in recipes calling for any type of yeast. However, since SAF suggests using less of it when substituting it for ADY or as a substitute for IDY or rapid-rise yeasts, I tend to view it more like IDY (http://www.safyeast.com/tips_using.html).

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 01:04:41 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2006, 09:14:06 PM »
Peter,

It could be of consequence.  I didn't catch the part where SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise was considered to be the same as IDY.  That makes sense.  It's yet another level of differentiation.

- red.november

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2006, 11:34:23 PM »
As Pete-zza mentioned, cool water and oven procedures are consistent in my past (as is refrigeration); but proofing is something I consistently did in the past, and blistering did occur.

Is it possible for someone to take a bunch of dead yeast cells, spread them across half the dough's outer edge, and identify the difference after oven time?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 12:46:11 AM by giotto »

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2006, 11:44:15 PM »
ADY and use of cool water is something I have done on a regular basis in the past [...] and I did get blistering in the past with proofing

But did you get blistering when not using a combination of ADY and cold water, irrespective of proofing?

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2006, 12:34:25 AM »
I've used cool water too frequently to answer that question. I proofed the active yeast in the past because I worked with more of a bulk yeast and I wanted to test it first.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 12:40:23 AM by giotto »


Offline Randy

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2006, 07:19:16 AM »
I like the big bubbles my recipe produces, with some as large as one inch or even two across.  I watch people pick out a slice and a big void piece is quick to go.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2006, 03:40:55 PM »
 >:D yea I'm still here. Ditto that Randy. I have actually been playing with a variation between your recipe and the RT clone to compare the differences. The RT clone tastes more like RT, while your recipe is a closer match to the amount of bubbling that occurs. (Not blistering!). I must say, Randy's recipe is almost impossible to retard once it gets started. I had this thing in the fridge overnight and it still doubled in size!

I am watching this ADY yeast reconstitution thing with a close eye. Whenever I use ADY in my recipes I ALWAYS reconstitute it in warm water for ~10 minutes before adding it to my dry ingredients. My crust is always silky smooth.

I will have to try adding it directly to the flour. This makes perfect sense for a commercial pizza setup since their doughs are usually pre-formulated in bags and they just add water. Whether that water is cold or not may make all the difference, although I must say there is a fair amount of heat generated from the mixing action of a dough hook.

Offline Randy

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2006, 05:23:02 PM »
DNA Dan, try the new recipe referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4284.msg35772.html#msg35772.  It reduces the yeast but still has the large bubbles.  This new flour has me planning on a new round of test
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 02:00:45 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2006, 12:41:19 AM »
While kids and parents enjoy some of the more famous American styles out there and have certainly enjoyed my latest formula due to presentation, lightness and taste, others prefer a harder interior among other changes that I make. Since people can report completely different results when trying to duplicate a recipe depending on flour used and texture preferred, my earlier post serves to help people adjust according to their custom requirements.  Less oil, for example, harder interior, more oil, softer interior. Really airy breads like Ciabatta are professional produced and recommended time and again by a myriad of good authors with very minimal mix times.

I'm happy to see that King Arthur has moved into Smart & Final, Trader Joes, and even now at local basic grocery stores. It's caused others like Gold Medal to raise the bar. Although I've seen plenty of blogs that really enjoyed their past best of bread label.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 12:43:03 AM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2006, 10:39:24 PM »
I made a couple more doughs with the formula and procedures posted earlier (at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4284.msg36146.html#msg36146); but I proofed the 1 tsp of active yeast in a couple of tablespoons of 103F water first (with a touch of sugar), and mixed the dough with 90F water (instead of cool water) to see if blisters would still occur on the crust.

I made one dough after allowing it to sit for 75 or so minutes in my 69F room. It didn't look double the size; but it had expanded. I layed it out by hand and employed the usual oven procedures and screen. It had good spring and color; but no bubbles. I delivered it to a friend.

I placed the other dough in a bag 20 minutes after it was mixed and placed it in the refrigerator overnight. The next day (20 hours later), it looked like a blow fish when I removed it from the refrigerator (very noticeable expansion). I layed it out by hand into a small circle and let it sit for 2 hours at room temp inside a cloth. I then stretched it by hand and cooked it with the same oven procedures and screen. I received similar oven spring; but the overnight refrigeration gave me the same blisters noted in my earlier post.

So regardless whether I proof or not, use warm or cool water, receive growth in the refrigerator or not, I consistently get blisters with refrigeration and Active Dry Yeast. Here's a couple of pictures after refrigeration, which includes a slice:

http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/copy-king-harv.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/copy-king-harv-slice.JPG

Happy New Years all! :chef:
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 01:28:42 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2007, 03:45:12 PM »
Giotto,

So let's get this straight. You made one dough by reconstituting ADY in a few TBSPs warm water with some sugar added. You made the dough with warm water, (90F) then processed the dough in one of two ways:

1) 75 minute proof @ 69F then made pizza = No blistering
2) 20 minute RT proof, cooler overnight, 2 hr RT proof, then made pizza = Blistering

Is that correct? If so, that would indicate that the blistering you are getting is the result of over-fermentation and not the yeast or water temps used.  Do you have any pics of the non-blistered dough for comparison?

Also, can you provide some details of your oven setup and times,temps used for cooking. There may be something else about your process that helps contribute to this.

Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2007, 06:35:51 AM »
DNA Dan:

The falling number for this flour and other discussion are beyond an expectation that less than 24 hours is considered an over fermentation period for this flour. Experiences by myself and others, including Pete-zza, have reached far longer periods before they can reach over fermentation with this kind of flour. In addition, oils are used in formula and around the dough during refrigeration per discussion earlier. The goal was to move on to a next point, where non-proofed ADY combined with cold water were suspected.

A question remaining was whether results would differ when yeast was proofed. As a result of proofing the Active Dry Yeast and mixing with warmer water, the dough blew up like a balloon in the refrigerator overnight, the color was all there and great spring occurred in the oven (all of which I'd suspect of a 240 falling number malted barley flour that merely fermented overnight in a refrigerator). With regard to oven procedures, this was mentioned as following a usual pattern... Electric oven pre-heated to around 530F; hand tossed crust was placed on screen in middle of oven around 50 seconds with no toppings; toppings were then added and pizza was cooked 6 more minutes while continuing to use screen (picture shows screen). I do not have pictures showing the result from same day since I immediately delivered it to a friend's work. As I mentioned though, the color, spring and color presentation were no different, except it was smooth without blisters. I hope to return to some of the more knowledgable artisan bakers in the San Francisco region, since so many of their non-sour dough breads with short-term refrigerated fermentations are blistered.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 07:49:28 AM by giotto »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2007, 01:55:19 PM »
Giotto,

Very intersting....

Could you please provide the brand of ADY yeast you are using?

From your previous post regarding the crust that blistered, the dough was at room temperature after 2 hours and began to ferment again just before you put it in the oven.  This seems to counter the idea that cooking the dough straight from the cooler adds to the blistering.

So you attribute the blistering to the refrigerated fermentation, but not necessarily "COLD dough" while going in the oven?


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2007, 03:26:13 PM »
This blistering thing still has me baffled.  ???

I have made numerous doughs using ADY which were all reconstituted in warm water when mixing. I have tried various forms of preferment, refrigeration, cold when cooking, warm when cooking, etc., etc. and I have NEVER seen blistering like that.

Giotto, you are officially labeled "BLISTER MASTER" !!!

I really wish we could pin this down, because this is the last missing link for the Round Table pizza clone. I am pretty confident I can produce a decently layered crust ala cracker style, but the blistering thing is driving me crazy!

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2007, 03:38:33 PM »
Dan,

Are you letting your dough get to an over-fermented stage?

- red.november

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2007, 05:20:43 PM »
November,

I have tried long fermentations, short fermentations, at room temperature, in the cooler, and several combinations in between. I would say about 99.9% of the time I get crusts that are smooth as silk (In varying shades of brown to white). I have seen blisters here and there, but it certainly wasn't anything I could reproduce or even was aware of at the time. Certainly nothing to the degree that Giotto showed in the pic. I am much more critical of my crusts now when making a pizza.

There seems to be different conditions under which you get blistering, depending upon recipe and treatment of the dough. It isn't as simple as "24 hours in the cooler" or "Cold water and ADY". I am starting to think I am just missing something here.

Offline abatardi

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2007, 12:57:34 PM »
Blistering has nothing to do with the type of yeast or the water temp... it has nothing to do with ADY not being rehydrated and surrounded by a cluster of dead cells.  I made a sourdough yesterday that had blistering all over it, so that can be ruled out.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with refrigeration like giotto says. 

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Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2007, 01:23:59 PM »
I'm pretty sure it has to do with refrigeration like giotto says. 

I've acquired those blisters on a very predictable basis, and I rarely cold ferment my dough.

Offline John39840

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2007, 01:47:51 AM »
I've only see those blisters after an indirect, and lengthy fermentation time. I've noticed this effect noticeably intensifies, even without lengthy fermentation, if I increase the fat content to a few percent or more. Give it a shot. But I actually like the effect of blistering. To me, this makes for a pizza of great flavor and crisp texture. Awesome actually. In fact, I've talked about trying to acheive an almost Nestle's Crunch/Hershey's Krackle type dough texture in a few of my posts here.

By the way, I experienced fairly miserable failures in my experimental efforts to make a New York-style pizza with the Harvest King flour. However, at that time, I had imagined it would make a magnificent American-style pizza. Glad to see this is in fact the case. :chef:
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 02:10:45 AM by John39840 »

Offline abatardi

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2007, 03:32:20 AM »


Well then it has to deal with over-fermentation perhaps, because it's not the yeast.

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Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2007, 06:10:47 AM »
Well then it has to deal with over-fermentation perhaps, because it's not the yeast.

I don't think anybody here made the claim that it had to do with a particular yeast.  It's just that the conditions surrounding yeast death and over-fermentaion are connected, and ADY is more sensitive to those conditions than IDY.


 

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