Author Topic: Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)  (Read 14394 times)

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Offline giotto

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2007, 06:35:51 AM »
DNA Dan:

The falling number for this flour and other discussion are beyond an expectation that less than 24 hours is considered an over fermentation period for this flour. Experiences by myself and others, including Pete-zza, have reached far longer periods before they can reach over fermentation with this kind of flour. In addition, oils are used in formula and around the dough during refrigeration per discussion earlier. The goal was to move on to a next point, where non-proofed ADY combined with cold water were suspected.

A question remaining was whether results would differ when yeast was proofed. As a result of proofing the Active Dry Yeast and mixing with warmer water, the dough blew up like a balloon in the refrigerator overnight, the color was all there and great spring occurred in the oven (all of which I'd suspect of a 240 falling number malted barley flour that merely fermented overnight in a refrigerator). With regard to oven procedures, this was mentioned as following a usual pattern... Electric oven pre-heated to around 530F; hand tossed crust was placed on screen in middle of oven around 50 seconds with no toppings; toppings were then added and pizza was cooked 6 more minutes while continuing to use screen (picture shows screen). I do not have pictures showing the result from same day since I immediately delivered it to a friend's work. As I mentioned though, the color, spring and color presentation were no different, except it was smooth without blisters. I hope to return to some of the more knowledgable artisan bakers in the San Francisco region, since so many of their non-sour dough breads with short-term refrigerated fermentations are blistered.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 07:49:28 AM by giotto »


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2007, 01:55:19 PM »
Giotto,

Very intersting....

Could you please provide the brand of ADY yeast you are using?

From your previous post regarding the crust that blistered, the dough was at room temperature after 2 hours and began to ferment again just before you put it in the oven.  This seems to counter the idea that cooking the dough straight from the cooler adds to the blistering.

So you attribute the blistering to the refrigerated fermentation, but not necessarily "COLD dough" while going in the oven?

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2007, 03:26:13 PM »
This blistering thing still has me baffled.  ???

I have made numerous doughs using ADY which were all reconstituted in warm water when mixing. I have tried various forms of preferment, refrigeration, cold when cooking, warm when cooking, etc., etc. and I have NEVER seen blistering like that.

Giotto, you are officially labeled "BLISTER MASTER" !!!

I really wish we could pin this down, because this is the last missing link for the Round Table pizza clone. I am pretty confident I can produce a decently layered crust ala cracker style, but the blistering thing is driving me crazy!

Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2007, 03:38:33 PM »
Dan,

Are you letting your dough get to an over-fermented stage?

- red.november

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2007, 05:20:43 PM »
November,

I have tried long fermentations, short fermentations, at room temperature, in the cooler, and several combinations in between. I would say about 99.9% of the time I get crusts that are smooth as silk (In varying shades of brown to white). I have seen blisters here and there, but it certainly wasn't anything I could reproduce or even was aware of at the time. Certainly nothing to the degree that Giotto showed in the pic. I am much more critical of my crusts now when making a pizza.

There seems to be different conditions under which you get blistering, depending upon recipe and treatment of the dough. It isn't as simple as "24 hours in the cooler" or "Cold water and ADY". I am starting to think I am just missing something here.

Offline abatardi

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2007, 12:57:34 PM »
Blistering has nothing to do with the type of yeast or the water temp... it has nothing to do with ADY not being rehydrated and surrounded by a cluster of dead cells.  I made a sourdough yesterday that had blistering all over it, so that can be ruled out.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with refrigeration like giotto says. 

- aba



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Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2007, 01:23:59 PM »
I'm pretty sure it has to do with refrigeration like giotto says.

I've acquired those blisters on a very predictable basis, and I rarely cold ferment my dough.

Offline John39840

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2007, 01:47:51 AM »
I've only see those blisters after an indirect, and lengthy fermentation time. I've noticed this effect noticeably intensifies, even without lengthy fermentation, if I increase the fat content to a few percent or more. Give it a shot. But I actually like the effect of blistering. To me, this makes for a pizza of great flavor and crisp texture. Awesome actually. In fact, I've talked about trying to acheive an almost Nestle's Crunch/Hershey's Krackle type dough texture in a few of my posts here.

By the way, I experienced fairly miserable failures in my experimental efforts to make a New York-style pizza with the Harvest King flour. However, at that time, I had imagined it would make a magnificent American-style pizza. Glad to see this is in fact the case. :chef:
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 02:10:45 AM by John39840 »

Offline abatardi

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2007, 03:32:20 AM »


Well then it has to deal with over-fermentation perhaps, because it's not the yeast.

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Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2007, 06:10:47 AM »
Well then it has to deal with over-fermentation perhaps, because it's not the yeast.

I don't think anybody here made the claim that it had to do with a particular yeast.  It's just that the conditions surrounding yeast death and over-fermentaion are connected, and ADY is more sensitive to those conditions than IDY.


Offline abatardi

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2007, 03:11:29 AM »
After taking another look at the recipe and seeing the differences between Randy and giotto's processes, I'm almost positive it has to do with using cold water with non-rehydrated ADY.  It's the one difference that sticks out that could conceivably create the conditions for blistering. 
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Offline November

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2007, 03:44:43 AM »
abatardi,

I assume you had a reason for quoting me, however I don't know what you were hoping to communicate. As I just pointed out in the previous post, the purpose of singling out the ADY was because of its sensitivity. This is not the same as claiming ADY is the sole cause of blistering, but simply isolating one possible cause for one specific instance. Make sure you include all relevant comments. For example:

Using non-rehydrated ADY and cold water just exacerbates the problem (from the perspective of it being undesired). Strains do play a significant roll, but I wasn't going to get into that. Since ADY contains about 70% dead cells, the problem would be greater with ADY than IDY. However, in your case it's possible your dough blistered for the very same reason mine blisters on occasion: over-fermentation.

Once again, the conditions surrounding yeast death are usually the same for over-fermentation. It doesn't matter what yeast is used.

- red.november

Offline SemperFi

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2007, 11:38:24 AM »
http://www.sonjuhi.com/tips2.htm

The website names a few reasons, but no true explanations.

This website:

http://www.sourdough.com.au/forum//viewtopic.php?p=137

is another forum that specifically talks about blistering.  In a nutshell, 10 deg C for 15 hours is what they are saying.  I think November might enjoy actually jumping into this forum.  I hope that it helps.  Adam
Adam

Offline pizzoid

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2007, 08:27:36 PM »
OK, no image editing software to get the picture small enough for posting via this computer.

My current direction: if you want blistering, try brushing the cornicone-to-be with olive oil. Not quite night & day demarcation between half that was brushed with oil and half that was not. First noticed this after I was experimenting with doing dough stretch & form on marble with olive oil. (This pie was done on bench flour.)

I'm using my first try with Harvest King flour, 57% hydration (way too dry, but was nice for KASL), 3% oil incorporated, dough experiment, eating it now. Overnight fridge retard. IDY predissolved in warm water. Dough warmed before working. Stone temp. was 560F (oven is 500 max. Still working on those particulars!).

- Al

Offline Bryan S

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2007, 10:23:40 PM »

22 oz High Gluten Flour, or Bread flour or Harvest King
Note: If you use Harvest King plan on adding a tablespoon of flour during the kneading but it will still be wet.

13.6  oz Water by weight warm 110deg.

2 TBS + 2 teaspoons raw sugar

1 TBS + 1 ts Honey

1 Tbs + 1 ts  Classico Olive Oil

2 ts salt

1   teaspoon SAF yeast

I have a question about this crust. I'm guessing the flour and water are measured by weight and the rest of the ingredients by volume? Going to make this it looks and sounds like a winner.  :) Thanks Bryan
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline John39840

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2008, 10:41:17 AM »
Seems Harvest King Gold Medal Flour made just as quick an entrance as a hasty exit. It has totally disappeared off the shelves here. Does anyone know where it can be purchased in the Queens, NY or general area? I didn't realize the difference this flour made in my pizza until after running out of it.

Offline pizzoid

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2008, 10:53:00 AM »
I think they changed the packaging design. Look for a different bag.

- Al

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2008, 10:59:17 AM »
Seems Harvest King Gold Medal Flour made just as quick an entrance as a hasty exit. It has totally disappeared off the shelves here. Does anyone know where it can be purchased in the Queens, NY or general area? I didn't realize the difference this flour made in my pizza until after running out of it.


John,

The Harvest King flour is often sold by General Mills as "Better for Bread" flour. Sometimes both names appear on the bag (see http://www.bettycrocker.com/products/gold-medal-flour/gold-medal-products.htm). I have no idea why they just don't stick to one name.

Peter

Offline John39840

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2008, 09:21:33 PM »
Thanks guys. Maybe I'm just looking for the wrong packaging.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2009, 10:10:55 AM »
Recently, I made a 12-day old cold-fermented pizza dough using dry (non-rehydrated) ADY that produced a crust with a profusion of small blisters in the rim area. This prompted me to re-read this thread to refresh my memory on the possible causes of blistering (as opposed to large bubbles) that occurs at the rim area of a baked pizza crust. The most prevalent theory seems to suggest that long fermentation times are responsible, although I read recently that acids are responsible (which I interpreted to mean acids that are produced during a long fermentation). I also read elsewhere that the cause of blistering was a dry dough. The question of blistering was raised again recently at the PMQ Think Tank, which prompted Tom Lehmann to join the ranks of those who believe that a dry dough is the cause: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=42110#42110. The PMQ Think Tank poster who posed the question about blistering provided a link to show his blistered pizza crust, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7559.0;attach=12252;image.

Peter