Author Topic: Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)  (Read 16759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline djones148

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Orange County, CA
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2009, 02:27:07 AM »
Just to add more fuel to the fire, I read in a very technical baking book (one aimed at commercial bakers), that blistering is caused by condensation on the surface of the dough which creates spots of increased extensibility. Dough that is refrigerated gets condensation on it, as can dough that is steamed in the oven. Boiling before baking (bagels) would directly put water on the surface that would presumably create little droplets.

It might also be occuring in long fermented doughs due to the action of alpha-amylase enzymes. Damaged starch particles in flour have a very high capacity to absorb water, however as fermentation goes along, the amylase enzymes continue to hydrolyze the damaged starch (which is vulnerable to attack) into dextrins and the water is released. As more damaged starch gets broken down, the absorptive capacity of the dough is declining and water droplets could form on the surface.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 02:29:05 AM by djones148 »


Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • Whatís So Funny ĎBout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2009, 10:36:20 AM »
It's funny how I came to finding this blog,but it all started with Bill's new "Less is more" thread!I have never really taken any interest in the Science of "Molecular gastronomy",but the thread pushed me toward reading a little about it and discovering the following blog post.I believe the term maillard Reaction has been used more times by Peet-za than anyone else on the forum.....so this one's for you Peter ;D.The kicker for me in this apart from the Ph pointers, was the bi carb browning benefits for vegetables.Parts are a little above my comprehension,but I'm sure others can get something from it,
David

http://blog.khymos.org/2008/09/26/speeding-up-the-maillard-reaction/#more-399
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23229
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2009, 11:08:38 AM »
Thank you, David.

I always enjoy reading about the Maillard reaction. Recently, I did some Google searches on the subject, which took me to excerpts from many highly technical books on food science. I was also looking to see if there was anything of note on the blistering phenomenon. Needless to say, given the interest in this subject, I have also started to pay closer attention to the photos of members to see if I can find clues as to what causes the blistering.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23863
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2009, 11:47:34 AM »
I had never had blistering in my dough before.  This past Tuesday, I had used some dough balls that had been frozen for a week.  Only 2 of the pizzas I made with this frozen dough blistered.  That is why I took a picture of the one rim.  I don't know what really caused this, but I had left these dough balls out to thaw and then reuse for a longer time than normal.
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline ThunderStik

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 331
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2009, 10:42:20 PM »
Pete, after reading this i went back and looked at past pics of my pies and whadda ya know, blisters. They are everwhere, i even went and looked at my leftovers from yesterday  and you guessed it they are all over the place.

I can post a pic if ya want.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23229
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2009, 10:58:53 PM »
I can post a pic if ya want.

Bill,

Please do. Thanks. Please also give some history on the doughs that went into the pizzas, such as nature and duration of fermentation, etc.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 331
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2009, 12:00:35 AM »
All info can be found here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9736.msg84469.html#msg84469


You can also scan some of my other threads and see them. Sorry about the pic quality.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 09:35:49 AM by ThunderStik »
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23229
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2010, 10:18:43 PM »
A while back Norma sent me a link to a document, at http://www.farine-mc.com/2009_09_01_archive.html, that presents an explanation for the blistering of breads, under Musings on Fermentation. The relevant portion of the article is as follows:

Also regarding the crust, when fermentation is done during proofing, you get a reddish color and a lot of blisters (due to the formation of microscopic chimneys through which bubbles of gas escape during baking). Blisters are considered undesirable in France where consumers treat them as the mark of a poorly made bread. By contrast, American consumers generally find them quite attractive. A matter of taste?

Peter

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2010, 12:27:47 AM »
I like a nice even crusty brown.  "Leoparding", and burnt blisters are a defect to me, not a goal.


Offline Jet_deck

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3050
  • Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2010, 09:55:23 PM »
I like a nice even crusty brown.  "Leoparding", and burnt blisters are a defect to me, not a goal.

What is your preferred cooking temp in your wfo?  What is your typical cook time?
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2256
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2010, 06:02:46 AM »
I like a nice even crusty brown.  "Leoparding", and burnt blisters are a defect to me, not a goal.

Really?  So you're saying that Neapolitan pizza is defective?

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2010, 08:34:47 AM »
I cook from 1000 degrees down, but prefer it to be around 700 on the dome with a 550 floor.

"Really?  So you're saying that Neapolitan pizza is defective?"

No, I am saying that a Neapolitan pizza that isn't burnt fits my tastes better than one that is.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2010, 08:48:22 AM »
Look at it like this.  If I send your steak out charred, with a side of charred potatoes and some charred bread, would you consider that defective?

It is looks over taste, and my preference is for taste.  If you like it, I say go for it.

Offline MikeH

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2010, 02:02:10 PM »
Look at it like this.  If I send your steak out charred, with a side of charred potatoes and some charred bread, would you consider that defective?

char on steak and bread is great - don't think I've had black potatoes, will have to try it. :)

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2256
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2010, 04:48:04 PM »

"Really?  So you're saying that Neapolitan pizza is defective?"

No, I am saying that a Neapolitan pizza that isn't burnt fits my tastes better than one that is.

Fair enough; However, I wasn't questioning your preference rather the statement that leoparding is a result of a defect.  To me, there's a big difference between charred & burnt.  I don't like burnt pizza either; charred though is a different story.  Without charing it's just wood oven pizza & not Neapolitan.

Matt

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2010, 09:35:43 PM »
What causes it (I think) is too much spring from the extreme heat and wet dough, leading to thin spots that cook (burn) more rapidly than the rest of the crust, so unless you are specifically trying to give that look to your pizza, I would think that in any baking terms it is a defect in dough and/or technique.  Obviously, nothing can be considered a defect if you are trying to create that defect.  The question then becomes:

Do we emulate it because it is inherently good, or do we emulate it because that is how a Neapolitan is "supposed" to look?

That is where it comes down to personal taste.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4243
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #91 on: November 22, 2010, 10:00:12 PM »

Do we emulate it because it is inherently good, or do we emulate it because that is how a Neapolitan is "supposed" to look?


The best pizzas I have ever made all had leoparding. Some of the worst pizzas I have ever made also had leoparding. My conclusion: it is by-product of a process that is good. But it is not the only factor and reliance on it could be defective judgement.
Sometimes I use big words that I donít fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence


Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #92 on: November 22, 2010, 10:11:08 PM »
Let me ask you this then:

Is it something that should be a goal to work towards, a by-process of making a pizza that does not need it, but can tolerate it, or an essential element of the pizza.

The best pizzas I have ever made did not have it, but I have had some excellent pizzas that I did not make that did.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4243
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #93 on: November 22, 2010, 10:26:17 PM »
Let me ask you this then:

Is it something that should be a goal to work towards, a by-process of making a pizza that does not need it, but can tolerate it, or an essential element of the pizza.

The best pizzas I have ever made did not have it, but I have had some excellent pizzas that I did not make that did.

It is not a goal I work towards. All black spots on the surface of the crust are NOT produced by the same process.
This is a sweeping generality, but, in general, the texture of the crust comes from heat and hydration; the taste comes from ingredients and fermentation. The way the outside of the crust looks is a combination of all of these and is just an artifact.

When it comes to texture, for me the biggest defect is an undercooked or overcooked pizza - the higher the temp, the harder it is to hit that window just right. I do not use the appearance of the surface of the crust as a cue.

 
Sometimes I use big words that I donít fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #94 on: November 22, 2010, 10:41:39 PM »
In the WFO at high temps (<800), I use the cheese as the visual indicator of doneness, but in the kitchen oven and below 800 I use the crust.  Oddly enough, I DO like my cheese with some char, just not the crust. 

I make a high hydration dough, high enough that I have to keep it in the fridge until just before I press it out, but I do not use or like Caputo flour.  It just doesn't give me what I want, and is certainly not worth the 3x cost.  Then again, I am not really trying to emulate Neapolitan pizza, although I do make margherita ingredient pies.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4243
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #95 on: November 22, 2010, 10:46:22 PM »
We are clearly making different pizzas - you probably would not enjoy the ones I make. Different strokes.

In your WFO, are you baking with a live fire? Is the crust exposed to radiant heat from coals or flames?
Sometimes I use big words that I donít fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2010, 10:59:59 PM »
Trust me, I would enjoy your pizzas.

Yes, I have a 2 log on a bed of coals fire going when I cook, mainly for light.  For a 2 minute pie at the beginning of the bake, I turn it at least 4 or 5 times, towards the end of the bake when the oven is down to 6-700 degrees I might turn it twice.

Offline chickenparm

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1786
  • Location: Back in Indy...Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2010, 01:37:05 AM »
I seen a commercial tonight on TV for Cici's Pizza and their pizzas shown had the blistering bubbles everywhere on the dough rim.
These are conveyor belt oven pizzas,not cooked at high heat in wfo or something elite..

Wonder how they managed that?
 :-D

That said,I have seen the same tiny blisters on Little Caesars pizza crusts as well.
So what gives?
 ???



-Bill

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2386
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2010, 04:31:47 PM »
I seen a commercial tonight on TV for Cici's Pizza and their pizzas shown had the blistering bubbles everywhere on the dough rim.
These are conveyor belt oven pizzas,not cooked at high heat in wfo or something elite..

Wonder how they managed that?
 :-D

That said,I have seen the same tiny blisters on Little Caesars pizza crusts as well.
So what gives?
 ???

Iíd say with the pizzas you mentioned, it may be the result of spraying the outside of the dough with a non-stick spray before baking (I mean blow-drying). I donít know if they do that at either one of those places, and Iím not even sure what makes me say what Iíve said here. Just a feeling, I guess, perhaps based on something I once knew but forgot.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: Blistering in a Pizza Crust (Split Topic)
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2010, 04:39:45 PM »
AR,  I agree about the blistering.  I also think it is caused by using oil on the outside of the dough while fermenting the dough.  -marc