Author Topic: Craig's NY Pizza  (Read 16377 times)

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Offline thezaman

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #200 on: August 10, 2016, 12:46:19 PM »
beautiful pies

Offline carl333

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #201 on: August 10, 2016, 12:47:41 PM »
I guess it's the oven and just differences in the way people do things. I can't make a decent pie on a pizza stone.

Would that comment include  a pie baked in a BS or were your referring to an kitchen oven bake? 
Carl

Offline carl333

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #202 on: August 10, 2016, 01:16:42 PM »
I had forgotten about it, but checking my notes, I see that back in 2011 I did try malted flour (not with additional LDM) side by side with Caputo Pizzeria.

I made two batches of dough; identical in every way except for the flour (Caputo Pizzeria vs KAAP).

100% flour
60% water
2.8% salt
1.7% culture

Minimal mixing, 30 hours in bulk @ 60-65F , 6 hours in balls @ 77F. Both baked at 825F for 60 seconds.

The first pie is KAAP. Unfortunately I don't think I took any upskirt shots.

interesting Craig. Your using AP and bread flour at Nep temps and times. Why haven't I attempted that? Done in your WFO. Would you attempt that in a BS as well?
Carl

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #203 on: August 10, 2016, 01:17:26 PM »
64%
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline minn

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #204 on: August 11, 2016, 04:22:29 AM »
Dear Craig, interesting to know you applied 60% hydration for both Caputo Pizzeria and KAAP. I am wondering what is the absorption rate and wet gluten level for the two flours.

I also noticed that sometime you make 64% hydration dough, do you use Caputo Pizzeria flour for such hydration level too?

Kindest Regards
Minn


I had forgotten about it, but checking my notes, I see that back in 2011 I did try malted flour (not with additional LDM) side by side with Caputo Pizzeria.


I made two batches of dough; identical in every way except for the flour (Caputo Pizzeria vs KAAP).

100% flour
60% water
2.8% salt
1.7% culture

Minimal mixing, 30 hours in bulk @ 60-65F , 6 hours in balls @ 77F. Both baked at 825F for 60 seconds.

The first pie is KAAP. Unfortunately I don't think I took any upskirt shots.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 04:24:09 AM by minn »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #205 on: August 11, 2016, 10:25:55 AM »
The one and only time I put KAAP dough in the Acuno was that one particular bake. I've tried a couple other malted flours in WFOs - most recently Superlative in the Pizza Party - it simply browns too fast at Neapolitan temps. At slightly lower temps, ~775F or so for 2ish minute pies, it works great. I always used KAAP in my BBQ mod: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9614.0

My NY pies are generally around 64% whether I'm using KAAP, KABF, AT, or Superlative. My best KAAP pies in the BBQ were always around 64%. My favorite Caputo Pizzeria pies in a WFO are however around 62%. It's been a while since I made a 64%+ pie in a WFO.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #206 on: August 11, 2016, 10:47:16 AM »
Dear Craig, interesting to know you applied 60% hydration for both Caputo Pizzeria and KAAP. I am wondering what is the absorption rate and wet gluten level for the two flours.
Minn,

The Caputo 00 flour has a rated absorption value of 55-57% (http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pizzeria-SPECS.pdf). For the KAAP, it is 61% +/- 2% (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4646.msg39204;topicseen#msg39204). Wet gluten mass numbers are harder to find but Norma and I (but Norma mostly) conducted wet gluten mass tests on a variety of flours. The tests were done in a home setting, not using the specialized test equipment that professionals use. The most recent list is at Reply 70 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18075.msg184661#msg184661

The way the tests were conducted is explained in Reply 3 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18075.msg176493#msg176493

Peter


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #207 on: August 11, 2016, 10:53:52 AM »
Great Neapolitan pizza can be made with Caputo Pizzeria from at least 58% - 73%HR which goes to show just how important all the other variables are.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline minn

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #208 on: August 11, 2016, 07:25:37 PM »
Thank you, Craig. the reason why I asked is I have been stuck in puzzles when watch those Neapolitan pizzalio video, the formula given has over 65% hydration, and they obviously use caputo 00 farina. as far as I know caputo 00 has much lower absorption value as given by Peter in below response, and the dough ball I can feel from the video looks firm and drier than what I can achieve.

it is good to know you dose 62% with caputo, the difference seems 2% only, while the absorption value has 4% to 6% gap. could I conclude the caputo dough you develop were wetter than the 64% non caputo dough?

I noticed the Napoli pizzalio put pizza skin over pizza skin without sticking each other, and the formula has over 65% hydration using caputo. do you have any idea how this could be achieved if I may?

Kindest Regards
Minn

The one and only time I put KAAP dough in the Acuno was that one particular bake. I've tried a couple other malted flours in WFOs - most recently Superlative in the Pizza Party - it simply browns too fast at Neapolitan temps. At slightly lower temps, ~775F or so for 2ish minute pies, it works great. I always used KAAP in my BBQ mod: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9614.0

My NY pies are generally around 64% whether I'm using KAAP, KABF, AT, or Superlative. My best KAAP pies in the BBQ were always around 64%. My favorite Caputo Pizzeria pies in a WFO are however around 62%. It's been a while since I made a 64%+ pie in a WFO.

Offline minn

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #209 on: August 11, 2016, 07:34:35 PM »
Thank you Pete, for the information. I looked into the link, feel sorry I could not understand, as I am used to the value in ratio, mind telling how much flour used to get the gluten weight?

Kindest Regards
Minn

Minn,

The Caputo 00 flour has a rated absorption value of 55-57% (http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pizzeria-SPECS.pdf). For the KAAP, it is 61% +/- 2% (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4646.msg39204;topicseen#msg39204). Wet gluten mass numbers are harder to find but Norma and I (but Norma mostly) conducted wet gluten mass tests on a variety of flours. The tests were done in a home setting, not using the specialized test equipment that professionals use. The most recent list is at Reply 70 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18075.msg184661#msg184661

The way the tests were conducted is explained in Reply 3 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18075.msg176493#msg176493

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #210 on: August 11, 2016, 07:51:31 PM »
Thank you Pete, for the information. I looked into the link, feel sorry I could not understand, as I am used to the value in ratio, mind telling how much flour used to get the gluten weight?

Minn
Minn,

The flour for the gluten mass tests was 6 ounces.

Peter

Offline minn

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #211 on: August 11, 2016, 08:07:00 PM »
I converted them into ratio, not sure if the methodology is correct. let me know if it isn't

KASL (King Arthur Sir Lancelot): 4.1 ounces, or 116.235 grams (14.2 +/- 0.2% protein)   68%
All Trumps (bromated, bleached): 3.81 ounces, or 108 grams (14.2 +/- 0.3% protein)   63%
Power (Pendleton): 3.8 ounces, or 107.73 grams (13.0 +/- 0.3% protein)   63%
Kyrol (bleached, bromated): 3.74 ounces, or 106 grams (14.0+/- 0.3% protein)   62%
ADM Gigantic: 3.42 ounces, or 96.89 grams (14.0 +/- 0.3% protein)   57%
Occident (ConAgra): 2.7 ounces, or 76.55 grams (12.4% protein)   45%
KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour): 2.68 ounces, or 75.978 grams (12.7 +/- 0.2% protein)   45%
Caputo 00 Rinforzato: 2.66 ounces, or 75.43 grams (12.5 +/- 0.5% protein)   44%
Caputo 00 Pizzeria: 2.54 ounces, or 72.12 grams (11.5-12.5% protein)   42%
Mondako (bleached, Pendleton): 2.354 ounces, or 66.75 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)   39%
Better for Bread (aka Harvest King): 2.306 ounces, or 65.3751 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)   38%
KAAP (King Arthur All-Purpose): 2.297 ounces, or 65.11995 grams (11.7 +/- 0.2% protein)   38%
Ceresota All-Purpose: 2.114 ounces, or 59.93 grams (12% protein)   35%
Caputo Extra/Blue 00: 2.06 ounces, or 58.38 grams (11 +/- 0.5% protein) (Note: expiration date of flour = 2010)   34%



thank you again, Pete, thanks to Norma as well, it took a lot time to develop such a useful information. All the respect

Kindest Regards
Minn

Minn,

The flour for the gluten mass tests was 6 ounces.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #212 on: August 11, 2016, 08:46:52 PM »
Minn,

Your conversions to ratios are correct. However, it is important when comparing flours from a wet gluten standpoint to know that there are both quantitative and qualitative aspects to the gluten. I discussed these aspects in some detail in the section called Gluten in Reply 46 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17555.msg179560;topicseen#msg179560

Peter

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #213 on: August 11, 2016, 08:54:26 PM »
The one and only time I put KAAP dough in the Acuno was that one particular bake. I've tried a couple other malted flours in WFOs - most recently Superlative in the Pizza Party - it simply browns too fast at Neapolitan temps. At slightly lower temps, ~775F or so for 2ish minute pies, it works great. I always used KAAP in my BBQ mod: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9614.0

My NY pies are generally around 64% whether I'm using KAAP, KABF, AT, or Superlative. My best KAAP pies in the BBQ were always around 64%. My favorite Caputo Pizzeria pies in a WFO are however around 62%. It's been a while since I made a 64%+ pie in a WFO.

How high have you gone in hydration with malted flour?  When I built my first WFO I wasn't a Neapolitan purist by any means and just wanted to make good pizza.  Of course with some of the first readings you come across on that topic I quickly believed high hydration was critical.  I used to make an 80% hydration dough with malted bread flour by developing gluten at 60% then adding 20% more water and fighting to get the dough to absorb it like my life depended on it.  The process was a pain, but the resulting dough was great and cooked great at 1000F on WG bricks in that little oven without burning.  I eventually became a purist, but my wife and friends still talk about those pizzas.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:57:46 PM by shuboyje »
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #214 on: August 12, 2016, 12:02:04 AM »
65% I think. With bromated flour, I could go a lot higher, but I still find 64% to be my sweet spot.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline minn

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #215 on: August 12, 2016, 05:02:25 AM »
Thanks, Pete, this is eye opening

Kindest Regards
Minn

Minn,

Your conversions to ratios are correct. However, it is important when comparing flours from a wet gluten standpoint to know that there are both quantitative and qualitative aspects to the gluten. I discussed these aspects in some detail in the section called Gluten in Reply 46 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17555.msg179560;topicseen#msg179560

Peter

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #216 on: September 04, 2016, 03:46:44 PM »
ny pizza isn't made on steel.  it is made on stone.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #217 on: September 04, 2016, 03:49:12 PM »
ny pizza isn't made on steel.  it is made on stone.

Mine is.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #218 on: September 04, 2016, 11:00:21 PM »
Pizza style isn't defined by methods, it is defined by results.

Offline jkb

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #219 on: September 05, 2016, 04:52:21 AM »
Pizza style isn't defined by methods, it is defined by results.

Yep.  Just like Texas brisket in a crock pot.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's NY Pizza
« Reply #220 on: September 05, 2016, 10:15:48 AM »
Good joke.  :-D
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


 

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