Author Topic: is it over fermented?  (Read 739 times)

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Offline live4u

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is it over fermented?
« on: April 27, 2015, 02:50:56 AM »
Unfortunately, I couldnt get pictires but, if I try to stretch the Norma way, if the dough simply stretches on the opposite side where I am stretching, becoming too thin, very fast, can I say its because of over fermentation?

Thanks
Ram


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2015, 09:29:49 AM »
Ram,

Can you post your recipe and how you prepared and managed the dough up to the time of use?

Peter

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2015, 09:49:31 AM »
Unless the hydration is really high, probably.
Ryan

Offline live4u

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2015, 11:33:55 AM »
I follow Jonas' recipe at reply #10 with few modifications

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37335.msg373149#msg373149.

Modifications as suggested by him are, 2 times stretch and fold with 8 min apart resting before 2 hrs resting. I had 62% water, 1% oil, 1% sugar. Total dough was for 10 balls and 24 hr fermentation. I coated the containers with oil before placing the ball for individual rising. Since it was cold on sat (69F), I placed the individual balls in the oven (73F) for 7.5 hrs.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2015, 12:12:10 PM »
Ram,

By any chance was the dough on the wet or clammy or tacky side when time came to make a pizza out of the dough?

Peter

Offline live4u

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2015, 12:14:29 PM »
Ram,

By any chance was the dough on the wet or clammy or tacky side when time came to make a pizza out of the dough?

Peter
Peter
No. It was not very wet. The bottom which was sitting in the plastic box was little wet.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2015, 12:44:57 PM »
Peter
No. It was not very wet. The bottom which was sitting in the plastic box was little wet.
Ram,

Doughs that are fermented at room temperature, or in an oven as you did, can be quite tricky because the degree of fermentation will depend to a large degree on the fermentation temperature and also the amount of yeast. The two have to be in balance. Otherwise, the dough can be underfermented or overfermented, or something close. Doughs that are underfermented tend to be on the stiff side and can sometimes be hard to open into skins because of excessive elasticity. Such doughs tend to be more prone to tears forming when trying to open up the dough to form skins. Conversely, doughs that are fermented too much can have a damaged gluten structure because of the actions of protease enzymes and acids of fermentation that degrade the gluten. Often when this happens, the water in the dough can be released from its chemical bond, making the dough on the wet or sticky side. Usually it can take quite a while for this to happen, but when it happens the dough can become quite extensible, resulting in the type of behavior you experienced. It wasn't due to the initial hydration value. As usual, Jonas specified the correct hydration values for the two possible flours that his recipe calls for.

I also take note that Jonas' recipe did not call for oil or sugar. While I don't think that the 1% oil you used would have caused any harm, the use of sugar could have caused the dough to ferment faster once the sugar (sucrose), which is a disaccharide, was inverted to the monosaccharide sugars glucose and fructose during fermentation, providing more food for the yeast. The inversion takes place through the heat of fermentation and also the acids produced during fermentation. The net effect of the sugar would be to upset the balance that I mentioned earlier. That is not wrong. It just changes things a bit and forces you to account for the sugar the next time you use it in the recipe. This usually means more closely monitoring the dough to be sure it doesn't ferment too much. Another possibility that might have worked in your case would have been to reball the dough once you saw that it was going to be overly extensible, which would have strengthened the gluten structure, and let the reballed dough rest for a few more hours to allow the gluten structure to relax again before using.

Peter

Offline live4u

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2015, 12:58:54 PM »
Yeah, I guess I got overzelous and added sugar. I reduced the ADY from 0.021 to 0.018 as I saw dough was over fermenting. I didnt have couple of hours as I had hungry friends at home :) Unfortunately I cant use the seed technique as the bowls I use are wider so the rise happens to the sides volumetrically. Probably next time, I should stick to basics  when inviting someone over :D and do experimentation on my own.

Offline live4u

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2015, 06:46:37 PM »
Thanks Peter for detailed info.


Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2015, 09:24:05 PM »
Peter, if you're still reading this thread, your note brings a question re the RT ferments.

I do sometimes get the moist, tacky  doughs you're talking about, so clearly I have some gluten breakdown. I'm doing an RT ferment, essentially to completion, then popping the dough in the fridge for usually, 5 days, sometimes more. Lately I've started doing reballs..or more accurately. late-balls, since I not doing an initial balling. But your comment made me wonder if perhaps I should pull my dough from RT before it's fully fermented, pop it in the fridge, and then if needed, add additional RT at the end of the pre-bake period. That could limit the wet dough problem, right ? For me, that would be a solution I'd like more than reducing the hydration..if doing that would actually even help. If i understand correctly, that wouldn't necessarily help much anyway since the wetness is coming from a part of the fermentation process rather than from the water I mix with.  Is that correct?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 11:04:10 AM »
Peter, if you're still reading this thread, your note brings a question re the RT ferments.

I do sometimes get the moist, tacky  doughs you're talking about, so clearly I have some gluten breakdown. I'm doing an RT ferment, essentially to completion, then popping the dough in the fridge for usually, 5 days, sometimes more. Lately I've started doing reballs..or more accurately. late-balls, since I not doing an initial balling. But your comment made me wonder if perhaps I should pull my dough from RT before it's fully fermented, pop it in the fridge, and then if needed, add additional RT at the end of the pre-bake period. That could limit the wet dough problem, right ? For me, that would be a solution I'd like more than reducing the hydration..if doing that would actually even help. If i understand correctly, that wouldn't necessarily help much anyway since the wetness is coming from a part of the fermentation process rather than from the water I mix with.  Is that correct?
Bill,

What you propose should work. The key is getting the dough at the right stage and condition at the time of use, that is, neither underfermented or overfermented. There are many possible combinations of room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation that can get you there. However, the condition of the dough won't be identical each time. Its precise condition will depend not only on the dough formulation itself but also on the amount of time spent at room temperature and in the refrigerator. Those conditions will ultimately determine the quality and characteristics of the finished crust and pizza.

With respect to the water issue, the water released is part of the original water you used to make the dough. In making the dough, the water is first absorbed by the starches in the flour and then by the protein. The extent of gluten formation at this time will depend largely on the mixer speed and the duration of the mix time. Once the dough has been mixed, the gluten will thereafter develop biochemically, through the absorption of more water by the gluten (the water is mobile) during fermentation. But, eventually, given enough time, the protease enzymes and the acids of fermentation will degrade the gluten. As I understand the chemistry involved, once the gluten is sufficiently attacked, which is usually toward the end of the useful life of the dough, some of the water that was retained by the protein/gluten is released from its bond. The only place this water can go is back onto the dough and manifest itself as wetness or stickiness. Given a choice, some people actually prefer to use the dough when it is about to expire, because of the enhanced flavor profile, aroma and texture that comes from long fermentations. The risk, however, is a dough that is overly extensible, on the wet, sticky side (increasing the risk of the skin sticking to the peel), and possibly hard to handle and load into the oven as a result.

Peter

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: is it over fermented?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 01:09:01 PM »
 
Quote
some people actually prefer to use the dough when it is about to expire,

Guilty as charged ;D

Thanks, Pete for that great explanation. It sure does explain a lot. In fact, just this morning I tried a bake doing just what I was asking about. The DB was hand-mixed (no mixer here(), S./F'd, scaled (well, it was one pie) but not balled, and then directly to CF last Wednesday. On Sunday night I late-balled it, and put it out to RT for additional fermentation. Given it's low amount of IDY ( I can't find my notes on this one, drat..but it was quite low) I knew it would need some more time. I actually should have extrapolated from Craig's chart, but just did a visual. Very low activity all yesterday until nighttime, when it seemed like it could blow overnight. So I popped it in the fridge ( I know,,,science became mayhem!)  This morning I gave it 2 hours of counter time, maybe 2.5, but either way, I think it was too much. Talk about extensible. This 240 gm DB could have gone 18 inches with a TF of minus 0 or whatever is ridiculously thin  :) Handled as little as possible. With a prayer and a lot of rice flour, the slipperiest stuff I've got (but haven't been using because it sticks to the bottom of the baked crusts..here I didn't care..just launch, please!)  I did manage to get it on the BS ( all really insane because it was like testing two things at once) and managed a bake that had a decent rim, an impossbly wet bottom due to low TF plus possible BS temp issues. The flavor was only adequate; certainly not what I expect from a long ferment.

So as far as what went wrong? Well, mostly everything. Except nobody went hungry. This pie had no job to do..just a test.

Thanks Pete for sharing all your great knowledge!


 

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