Author Topic: What Style Pizza is This?  (Read 499 times)

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Offline crimaldi

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What Style Pizza is This?
« on: April 27, 2015, 01:14:13 PM »
Hello All,

I'm new to this forum but have been making pizzas for quite a few years.  I've settled into a style of pizza that I personally really enjoy, but I'm curious what style pizza this would be considered (or if it's even considered pizza  ;)).  I'm cooking at home in a typical gas oven that tops out at 550 degrees.  I have a 3/8" 16x16 steel in the oven, which I typically preheat for an hour or so.  I've attached a photo of a typical pizza that I make.  The dough is a 65% hydration ADY yeast with 1 day cold fermentation.  I think what makes this pizza different (or possible strange?) is that I use a thickness factor of 0.05 at most sometimes a bit lower.  I also always include a  layer of vapor-thin procuitto di parma on top of the sauce, which is something that is hard to move away from once you start.   This pie also has some crumbled mild Italian sausage. 

I suspect that my crust could use some work.  However, by using top-notch ingredients (including sauce from home-grown San Marzano's), I end up with something that I find really tasty.   Do other people make pizza's that are this thin?  Does it fit into any established style?  Any thoughts and suggestions for improvement are greatly appreciated.  As I said, I'm just getting my feet wet in this forum and I don't know where this pizza really fits in yet.

Cheers!
John


Offline mitchjg

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2015, 01:26:16 PM »
Visually, your pizza looks pretty darn good.  If anything, it looks a lot like a NY style pizza.

What is it about your pie that you think needs more work?

Are you sure the thickness factor is 0.05?  Hard to tell by looking but it does not appear to be THAT thin to me.  Can you tell us exactly how much your dough balls weigh and the diameter of your pie?

Mitch

Offline crimaldi

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2015, 01:33:46 PM »
Visually, your pizza looks pretty darn good.  If anything, it looks a lot like a NY style pizza.

What is it about your pie that you think needs more work?

Are you sure the thickness factor is 0.05?  Hard to tell by looking but it does not appear to be THAT thin to me.  Can you tell us exactly how much your dough balls weigh and the diameter of your pie?



Thanks for the reply.  With regards to the thickness factor, this 16" pie was made with 9.75 oz of dough, which is (if I understand the definition correctly) a thickness factor of 0.049.

Maybe it doesn't need work - I've never had any real feedback since I only cook for my family.
John

Offline jkb

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2015, 04:16:50 PM »
Don't you get some major tip sag with the crust that thin?  I was making an 18" 0.07 tf pie once to fit in a pizza box I had and I accidentally stretched it to my usual 20" out of habit.  It was too floppy.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2015, 04:33:08 PM »
Well, it is not the math.  I get the same thickness factor.  Lots of people here strive to get very thin pies like that. 

If you like it, it is good!  If you have had better and want to be more like that, whatever "that" may be, let folks here know what your recipe is and what you are shooting for and you are likely to get help.
Mitch

Offline crimaldi

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2015, 04:39:47 PM »
As jkb suggested, I do indeed get some major "tip sag" (very embarrassing).  So much so, that I am sometimes left having to eat with a (gasp!) knife and fork.  But I like the taste and the "mouth feel" of the very thin crust.

I'll do some experiments with a larger tf and see how the results compare.  I'll post pictures and comments once I get to it.  Thanks to all of you for your thoughts - it's great to have a place to get feedback.  Hoping to keep getting better at this!!!
John

Offline norma427

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2015, 06:44:55 PM »
jpc,


I thought when trying Peter's Sloan Clone Dough Formulation #3 at Reply 898 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg283970#msg283970 that was a very thin pizza at the TF of 0.0682.

If you are interested in how thin the pizza was using Peter's formulation the photos are at Reply 904 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg284391#msg284391 and the next few posts. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2015, 07:33:39 PM »
Several years ago, I had a pizza at Grimaldi's in Arizona. Grimaldi's makes NY style pizzas. Based on information I was given by a manager, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.055, as I noted at Reply 16 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3669.msg54056;topicseen#msg54056

Peter

Offline moose13

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2015, 08:48:54 PM »
I call that style.... Awesome!
Thats all


Online CaptBob

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2015, 09:42:35 PM »
I call that style.... Awesome!
Thats all

 ^^^ ^^^ ^^^

Bob

Offline gfgman

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2015, 10:13:12 AM »
Fix the sag and box it up!  That's $15 all day.  Great looking pie!

Offline JD

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2015, 10:22:54 AM »
What's with the sag hate? That's NY all the way, sag required! 

Offline crimaldi

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 02:28:53 PM »
Thanks to all of the you who posted replies about my initial query!  The replies were both informative and entertaining.

Mostly, I was trying to figure out if the "New York Style" board was the appropriate place for me to be posting about my particular style of pizza.  Seems that it is, even though my thickness factor (0.05 in the original post) is on the low side.

So, now I want to post a follow-up.  I have done some experimenting with varying thickness factor (tf) to try to figure out where my personal sweet spot is.  First, I made a pie with tf=0.10, since that seems to be a common tf for NY style.  For me, it was *way* too thick (obviously this is a very personal and subjective issue).  Since I focus on very minimal, high-quality toppings, I find that a tf=0.10 crust just overwhelms the pizza. 

So, I then made two more pies last light, one at tf=0.06, and one at tf=0.07.  I think that tf=0.06 may be very close to perfect for me.  It's almost as thin as the 0.05 crust, but provides just enough structure to avoid excessive tip sag.  Sure, the tip will sag eventually, but a decisive move for the first bite solves the problem.

I've posted some pictures below of the 0.06 pie.  For the record, here are some details on the dough:

KASL Flour (100%) 
Water (63%)
IDY (0.25%)
Salt (2%)
Oil (1%)

Cold fermented at 40 degrees for 50 hours.  Baked at 550 deg on 3/8" steel preheated 70 min.

     
John

Offline JD

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 02:46:02 PM »
So, now I want to post a follow-up.  I have done some experimenting with varying thickness factor (tf) to try to figure out where my personal sweet spot is.  First, I made a pie with tf=0.10, since that seems to be a common tf for NY style.  For me, it was *way* too thick (obviously this is a very personal and subjective issue).  Since I focus on very minimal, high-quality toppings, I find that a tf=0.10 crust just overwhelms the pizza. 

So, I then made two more pies last light, one at tf=0.06, and one at tf=0.07.  I think that tf=0.06 may be very close to perfect for me.  It's almost as thin as the 0.05 crust, but provides just enough structure to avoid excessive tip sag.  Sure, the tip will sag eventually, but a decisive move for the first bite solves the problem.
   

Your pizza is beautiful. I think 0.1 is too thick also. 0.09 is about as high as I would go and feel it still be considered NY style.

That being said, I wonder if your TF is not exactly the same as others. Typically 0.05 is crazy thin, and your slice doesn't appear to be that thin. Take a look at a fairly recent slice pic I had here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg366648#msg366648

That pizza is 0.09TF which doesn't appear to be much thicker than yours. Are you sure you're stretching to the diameter you are putting into your calculator?


Offline crimaldi

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 03:06:51 PM »
Your pizza is beautiful. I think 0.1 is too thick also. 0.09 is about as high as I would go and feel it still be considered NY style.

That being said, I wonder if your TF is not exactly the same as others. Typically 0.05 is crazy thin, and your slice doesn't appear to be that thin. Take a look at a fairly recent slice pic I had here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg366648#msg366648

That pizza is 0.09TF which doesn't appear to be much thicker than yours. Are you sure you're stretching to the diameter you are putting into your calculator?

Hi JD.  I stretched this pie to 16", but it may have shrunk just a bit on the peel.  So let's say 15.5" just to be conservative.  The dough was 12.0 oz.  So that's tf=0.064 at 15.5".  And tf=0.060 if we call it the full 16".  I'll take a picture with a tape measure on the dough next time just so we're all on the same page for how we measure!

Part of the discrepancy between different pies and pictures could be how much rise we get out of the crust in the oven.  And how dense our dough is to start with.

I've been pondering the thickness factor definition for a while and I don't like it.  The scientist in me doesn't like the fact that it is a dimensional quantity (oz per square inch).  Good parameters are dimensionless, and thus remain constant in different unit systems (which this definition doesn't).  I feel badly for any Italian readers who must wonder what the hell a square inch is.  But I also think that, at best, the thickness factor is mis-named, because it doesn't really measure or predict thickness per se.  It simply says how much weight of dough you used per unit area, which may not necessarily directly correlate with baked thickness.

At this point, though, I don't have any better suggestions, because what you really need to know is the volume of the dough ball and that's tricky to measure.  I'll keep thinking about it...

John

Offline JD

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 03:21:13 PM »
Take a look at this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33652.msg364985#msg364985

Ryan created a spreadsheet to include a TF for the main part of the pizza, and a separate one for the crust. It was the subject of a small debate, but maybe it would work better for you?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 03:49:23 PM »
John,

Tom Lehmann, from whom I learned the concept of "thickness factor", uses the expression "density loading factor". I came up with the "thickness factor" nomenclature when we were designing the dough calculating tools because I was afraid that the members would get turned off by something that sounded too technical for them to grasp and use and, as a result, they might not have used the dough calculating tools. Along the way I tried to steer members on thickness value factors by posting posts such as the one at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12243.msg115759;topicseen#msg115759. The combination of the two created a language for the members to use in discussing the different kinds of pizzas.

Peter


Offline crimaldi

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 03:59:56 PM »
Josh and Peter,

Thanks for providing some historical context on the thickness factor.  Like everything else in life, this is apparently more complicated that I thought!  Anyway, I agree that the current definition of the thickness factors is a simple and useful metric, and it seems to have been adopted as a common term on this forum, which is good.  I guess I'm just learning that a particular thickness factor may produce slightly different results depending on dough, rim size, beers consumed, etc.

Cheers, and happy pizza making!
John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What Style Pizza is This?
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 04:11:53 PM »
John,

Whether one uses the density loading factor or thickness factor nomenclature, the method does have limitations, as I tried to acknowledge in posts like this one:

Reply 60 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3477.msg156992#msg156992.

Peter