Author Topic: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough  (Read 867 times)

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Offline Tayyab123

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How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« on: December 24, 2015, 08:53:36 PM »
Hi,

Here is my bakers percentage

Flour high gluten 100%
Salt 1.75%
Sugar 4%
Olive Oil 5%
Water 55%
IDY .375%

I cook in a commercial conveyor oven. How can achieve more browning on my crust (golden brown would be ultimate)
Currently my crust is like lightt brown




Online The Dough Doctor

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2015, 09:14:38 PM »
Bake at a higher temperature?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Essen1

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2015, 09:59:19 PM »
Add low diastatic malt to your dough at 2-3%. It works great unless you bake at 650F or higher. Then it's not really needed.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2015, 11:52:52 PM »
Adding the additional malt plus the 4% sugar that is already in the formula will contribute to additional sweetness of the finished crust.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Tayyab123

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2015, 01:36:01 AM »
Adding the additional malt plus the 4% sugar that is already in the formula will contribute to additional sweetness of the finished crust.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Would you suggest i lower the sugar and add the malt?
Also, if i bake at higher temp could it not mean that the flour is browning too soon and not giving the flour enough time to cook properly from the inside?

Also, which factor of the reciepe contributes to how soft the pizza will be? Water?

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2015, 12:11:05 PM »
If you exchange "sugar" for malt the impact upon the crust color will be essentially the same. Both are considered forms of sugar which contribute to crust color development. If you bake at too high of an oven temperature the crust color will form before the inside (crumb portion) of the crust has had a chance to thoroughly bake. Think of it like one would sear a steak on a hot griddle. The steak is nicely browned on the inside but still raw on the inside.This is why most thick crust/deep-dish pizzas are baked on some type of a baking platform in a deck or stone hearth oven. The bottom gets color before the inside of the pis is properly baked. If the pan is placed on a screen in the oven there is an air gap between the deck and the pan to slow heat transfer which allows the center of the pizza to bake more thoroughly while controlling crust color development on the bottom of the pizza.
Which ingredient is responsible for making a softer textured crumb? The fat. This can either be in the form of oil or shortening/margarine/butter/ lard, etc.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2015, 03:16:34 PM »
Tayyab123,

Since there are many brands and forms of diastatic malt, whatever brand or form of diastatic malt you decide to use, you will want to follow the instructions as to usage. In the UK, a couple of our members have been using this diastatic malt product:

http://bakerybits.co.uk/diax-diastatic-malt-flour.html

Peter

Offline Tayyab123

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2015, 09:34:39 AM »
Tayyab123,

Since there are many brands and forms of diastatic malt, whatever brand or form of diastatic malt you decide to use, you will want to follow the instructions as to usage. In the UK, a couple of our members have been using this diastatic malt product:

http://bakerybits.co.uk/diax-diastatic-malt-flour.html

Peter


Thanks pal, has anyone used this product and left reviews?

Offline Tayyab123

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2015, 09:43:29 AM »
If you exchange "sugar" for malt the impact upon the crust color will be essentially the same. Both are considered forms of sugar which contribute to crust color development. If you bake at too high of an oven temperature the crust color will form before the inside (crumb portion) of the crust has had a chance to thoroughly bake. Think of it like one would sear a steak on a hot griddle. The steak is nicely browned on the inside but still raw on the inside.This is why most thick crust/deep-dish pizzas are baked on some type of a baking platform in a deck or stone hearth oven. The bottom gets color before the inside of the pis is properly baked. If the pan is placed on a screen in the oven there is an air gap between the deck and the pan to slow heat transfer which allows the center of the pizza to bake more thoroughly while controlling crust color development on the bottom of the pizza.
Which ingredient is responsible for making a softer textured crumb? The fat. This can either be in the form of oil or shortening/margarine/butter/ lard, etc.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Generally speaking, is it better to use malt flour or sugar in the dough? I know you said essentially they are the same, but what is better and is the difference if any?


Offline Pete-zza

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Offline Tayyab123

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2015, 10:50:35 PM »

Pete-zza,

What would you recommend from what you have discovered about using malt?
 Sugar or malt?
Tayyab123,

To better answer your question, it would help if you can tell me what type and brand of flour you are using. For example, is it listed under the UK flour sources in the thread I created at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012.

Peter

Offline Tayyab123

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2015, 06:51:48 AM »
Tayyab123,

To better answer your question, it would help if you can tell me what type and brand of flour you are using. For example, is it listed under the UK flour sources in the thread I created at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012.

Peter


Hi, no it is not on your list.

This is the flour we use http://trade.wrightsflour.co.uk/news/bravo-pizza-flour/

The only flour company i know of here in the UK from you list is ADM. I tried to find out the protien content in thier flour by calling them up but they refused to tell me

Offline Tayyab123

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 06:52:33 AM »
Bravo pizza flour protien content is 12.5%

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2015, 12:22:59 PM »
Tayyab123,

The reason I asked about your flour was to see if it was malted at the miller's facility. From the information you provided, it is hard to say although I did note that the flour is milled from Canadian wheat. I know that the Five Roses flours sold at retail in Canada and milled from Canadian wheat are unmalted but I have not been able to determine to date whether that is also true of the Robin Hood flours sold at retail in Canada. But it is possible, I suppose, that the Bravo flour you are using is also unmalted. I say this because after looking at all of the white flours offered by Wright and shown at http://trade.wrightsflour.co.uk/products/our-flours/, many are untreated. But whether untreated means no malting is not clear from the Wright website. (For your additional information, I added several of the Wright flours to the listing at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012).

To get back to your original question, I have not done much with testing diastatic malt. In the U.S., most flours used for pizza making are already malted at the millers' facilities. The malting can be by the use of malted barley flour, which is a source of alpha amylase enzyme (diastatic malt), or by a fungal or bacterial source. Whichever method is used, the alpha amylase enzymes hydrolyze the damaged starch in the flours into simple sugars which are then used to feed the yeast and, to the extent that there are leftover sugars (residual sugars) after feeding the yeast, to contribute to crust coloration. Where diastatic malt is most beneficial in my opinion is to supplement flours that are unmalted. Usually, the diastatic malt is added to fix a problem, such as insufficient crust coloration. But, even in the U.S., unmalted flours are far less common than malted flours, both at the professional and retail levels. Many of these flours are also unbleached and unenriched. And some are organic.

The above said, the members' interest in supplementing flours that are already malted with additional diastatic malt was piqued by a recent pizza book, The Pizza Bible, by a very well known pizza operator by the name of Tony Gemignani. That book and Tony's recommended use of diastatic malt led to two threads on the forum. I merged the two threads into a single thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg346632#msg346632. If you read that thread, you will discover two things. First, you will see that diastatic malt is a complicated and highly technical subject. Second, you are likely to come away quite confused. A good part of that confusion stems from the fact that the literature and malt packaging materials used by producers of diastatic malt products, and repackagers and resellers of such products, are often incorrect, incomplete and misleading (see, for example, Reply 169 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg353229;topicseen#msg353229). That is the main reason why I suggested that you follow the usage recommendations of for whatever diastatic malt product you might choose to use, and cross your fingers that the usage instructions are correct and also applicable to your case. Another point to keep in mind is that the diastatic malt that Tony Gemignani uses and recommends and that many of our members use is a low diastatic malt product. That product has a degrees Lintner value of about 20. By contrast, the UK diastatic malt product that I mentioned to you earlier has a degrees Lintner value of about 120-180. That means that you cannot use the same amount of that product as the low diastatic malt. There may also be some experimentation involved to determine the proper amount to use to achieve the desired results.

Although diastatic malt can increase sugar levels, I don't personally don't consider it as the best or optimum way of getting more sugar. If your objective is to get increased sweetness, or increased tenderness in the finished crust, possibly in connection with using a fair amount of oil as Tom suggested, or to get more crust coloration (without getting premature or excessive bottom crust browning), or some combination of the above, I think it is better to use either plain old table sugar or a nondiastatic malt product. Table sugar in particular will be a lot cheaper than diastatic malt. Nondiastatic malt products have no functionality to hydrolyse damaged starch. They are solely alternative sources of sweetness and perhaps contribute to crust coloration because of their natural coloration. Examples include barley malt syrup, honey, maple syrup, agave syrup, molasses, etc. These can be quite expensive compared with ordinary table sugar and, unless they are used in dry form, can be messy to use in a commercial setting also.

I don't want to discourage you from using diastatic malt, given that several of our members have reported good results using same, and especially if you determine that the Bravo flour you are using is unmalted. But my advice is to use the proper amount and not go overboard with such use. That is easy to do since most people do not know that there are many different types and brands of diastatic malt and that they can be quite different and have to be used differently.

Peter


Offline Tayyab123

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2015, 05:47:38 PM »
Tayyab123,

The reason I asked about your flour was to see if it was malted at the miller's facility. From the information you provided, it is hard to say although I did note that the flour is milled from Canadian wheat. I know that the Five Roses flours sold at retail in Canada and milled from Canadian wheat are unmalted but I have not been able to determine to date whether that is also true of the Robin Hood flours sold at retail in Canada. But it is possible, I suppose, that the Bravo flour you are using is also unmalted. I say this because after looking at all of the white flours offered by Wright and shown at http://trade.wrightsflour.co.uk/products/our-flours/, many are untreated. But whether untreated means no malting is not clear from the Wright website. (For your additional information, I added several of the Wright flours to the listing at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012).

To get back to your original question, I have not done much with testing diastatic malt. In the U.S., most flours used for pizza making are already malted at the millers' facilities. The malting can be by the use of malted barley flour, which is a source of alpha amylase enzyme (diastatic malt), or by a fungal or bacterial source. Whichever method is used, the alpha amylase enzymes hydrolyze the damaged starch in the flours into simple sugars which are then used to feed the yeast and, to the extent that there are leftover sugars (residual sugars) after feeding the yeast, to contribute to crust coloration. Where diastatic malt is most beneficial in my opinion is to supplement flours that are unmalted. Usually, the diastatic malt is added to fix a problem, such as insufficient crust coloration. But, even in the U.S., unmalted flours are far less common than malted flours, both at the professional and retail levels. Many of these flours are also unbleached and unenriched. And some are organic.

The above said, the members' interest in supplementing flours that are already malted with additional diastatic malt was piqued by a recent pizza book, The Pizza Bible, by a very well known pizza operator by the name of Tony Gemignani. That book and Tony's recommended use of diastatic malt led to two threads on the forum. I merged the two threads into a single thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg346632#msg346632. If you read that thread, you will discover two things. First, you will see that diastatic malt is a complicated and highly technical subject. Second, you are likely to come away quite confused. A good part of that confusion stems from the fact that the literature and malt packaging materials used by producers of diastatic malt products, and repackagers and resellers of such products, are often incorrect, incomplete and misleading (see, for example, Reply 169 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg353229;topicseen#msg353229). That is the main reason why I suggested that you follow the usage recommendations of for whatever diastatic malt product you might choose to use, and cross your fingers that the usage instructions are correct and also applicable to your case. Another point to keep in mind is that the diastatic malt that Tony Gemignani uses and recommends and that many of our members use is a low diastatic malt product. That product has a degrees Lintner value of about 20. By contrast, the UK diastatic malt product that I mentioned to you earlier has a degrees Lintner value of about 120-180. That means that you cannot use the same amount of that product as the low diastatic malt. There may also be some experimentation involved to determine the proper amount to use to achieve the desired results.

Although diastatic malt can increase sugar levels, I don't personally don't consider it as the best or optimum way of getting more sugar. If your objective is to get increased sweetness, or increased tenderness in the finished crust, possibly in connection with using a fair amount of oil as Tom suggested, or to get more crust coloration (without getting premature or excessive bottom crust browning), or some combination of the above, I think it is better to use either plain old table sugar or a nondiastatic malt product. Table sugar in particular will be a lot cheaper than diastatic malt. Nondiastatic malt products have no functionality to hydrolyse damaged starch. They are solely alternative sources of sweetness and perhaps contribute to crust coloration because of their natural coloration. Examples include barley malt syrup, honey, maple syrup, agave syrup, molasses, etc. These can be quite expensive compared with ordinary table sugar and, unless they are used in dry form, can be messy to use in a commercial setting also.

I don't want to discourage you from using diastatic malt, given that several of our members have reported good results using same, and especially if you determine that the Bravo flour you are using is unmalted. But my advice is to use the proper amount and not go overboard with such use. That is easy to do since most people do not know that there are many different types and brands of diastatic malt and that they can be quite different and have to be used differently.

Peter


I have ordered the diastatic malt that you recommended, but as it is not a low diastatic malt how much would be a good amount to start with? 1%?
Would i be replacing the malt for sugar when i trial it? or should add the malt as well as the normal sugar?

Also, when you said something about the malt doing something to the damaged starch can you explain to me in simple terms what difference it would make to the flour in terms of handling it, storing it and using it?

While im asking you all these questions i hope you dont mind if i ask you another :) what is the pros and cons of high hydration and low hydration. I want to know what they do to the flour so i can determine how to achieve the kind of pizza i want.

Thanks

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2015, 09:42:17 PM »

I have ordered the diastatic malt that you recommended, but as it is not a low diastatic malt how much would be a good amount to start with? 1%?
Would i be replacing the malt for sugar when i trial it? or should add the malt as well as the normal sugar?

Also, when you said something about the malt doing something to the damaged starch can you explain to me in simple terms what difference it would make to the flour in terms of handling it, storing it and using it?
Tayyab123,

If I were in your shoes, I would try to contact Wright's to see if your Bravo flour is malted. They should be able and willing to answer that question. Knowing the answer would enable us to determine how much of the Diax malt flour should be used. According to the information provided at http://bakerybits.co.uk/diax-diastatic-malt-flour.html#detailedproductinfo, the recommended usage of the Diax product is 5-10 grams per 1000 grams of flour. If the Bravo flour is already malted, then even 5-10 grams per 1000 grams of flour may be too much.

As for the malt versus sugar question, I have read that it is not necessary to replace any existing sugar in a recipe but I have also seen recommendations that the amount of sugar in the recipe be reduced. Tom Lehmann is in the latter camp, as you can see in his post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/malt-in-pizza-dough.14657/#post-89839. Again, I think it would help to know whether the Bravo flour is malted or not to be able to better answer this question.

There is no need for you to do anything with your flour as respects its handling, storage or use. Damage starch is usually a byproduct of sprout damage and milling. Attempts are made at the millers to determine the appropriate amounts of malt to add to correct this problem but some flours milled from certain wheat grains are more prone to starch damage than other flours. Damaged starch can absorb about three times the amount of water as undamaged starch and is why the damaged starch is such a good substrate for the diastatic malt. But if there is too much diastatic malt, you can end up with a wet and sticky dough that is hard to handle. This is less a problem for our members who are using low diastatic malt because its addition does not materially increase the amount of total diastatic malt in the dough.

Peter




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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 04:30:09 PM »

While im asking you all these questions i hope you dont mind if i ask you another :) what is the pros and cons of high hydration and low hydration. I want to know what they do to the flour so i can determine how to achieve the kind of pizza i want.

Thanks
Tayyab123,

If you are interested in something basic about hydration, you might take a look at the item "Water" toward the end of Tom Lehmann's post at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31802.msg315760;topicseen#msg315760.

Here are some other posts of a fairly basic nature that discuss hydration, as well as some related matters, like oil:

Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23258.msg235828;topicseen#msg235828

Reply 980 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3944.msg70562;topicseen#msg70562

Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11979.msg111940#msg111940

Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7666.msg65778#msg65778

For a more technical discussion of hydration, you might look at this thread and the links referenced therein:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12211.msg115181#msg115181

Peter

Offline Tayyab123

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2015, 07:19:04 PM »
Tayyab123,

If you are interested in something basic about hydration, you might take a look at the item "Water" toward the end of Tom Lehmann's post at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31802.msg315760;topicseen#msg315760.

Here are some other posts of a fairly basic nature that discuss hydration, as well as some related matters, like oil:

Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23258.msg235828;topicseen#msg235828

Reply 980 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3944.msg70562;topicseen#msg70562

Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11979.msg111940#msg111940

Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7666.msg65778#msg65778

For a more technical discussion of hydration, you might look at this thread and the links referenced therein:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12211.msg115181#msg115181

Peter

Thanks pete for all the information you have provided. Appreciate it dude

I have been reading more about crust browning, and i have seen pizza hut had used dry milk powder in the past for their pan pizzas. As we also sell pan pizzas do you think it would be a better idea to try out dry milk in my reciepe before the diax?

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Re: How to achieve more browning and softness in my pizza dough
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2015, 11:19:46 AM »

I have been reading more about crust browning, and i have seen pizza hut had used dry milk powder in the past for their pan pizzas. As we also sell pan pizzas do you think it would be a better idea to try out dry milk in my reciepe before the diax?
Tayyab123,

Both the Diax and dry milk powder should be able to increase crust coloration. However, since you have already ordered the Diax, you might want to use that, especially if you decide not to ask Wright's about the Bravo flour or, if you do, they refuse to tell you whether the Bravo flour is malted or not. Using the Diax with the Bravo flour should establish whether the Bravo flour is malted or not. In other words, if the dough comes out fine and handles well, that might prove that the Bravo flour was unmalted. If the dough comes out wet and sticky and overly extensible, that might prove that the Bravo flour was already malted and that you exceeded the workable limit. For a test, you might use the Diax at the rate recommended by the producer of that product.

I have written many times about the matter of use by PH of dairy products, including dry milk powder. Rather than recapitulate on what I have written before on this matter, you might check out these posts:

Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6448.msg58391;topicseen#msg58391

Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8791.msg76201;topicseen#msg76201

Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=213.msg231836;topicseen#msg231836

Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=24670.msg249647#msg249647

For your additional information, here is the latest document (as of June 2014) that I have been able to find that shows the ingredients used by PH to make its pan dough:

http://d3ixjveba7l33q.cloudfront.net/mobilem8-php/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PH-Ingredient-Listings-English-June-2014.pdf

As you can see from the above pdf document, PH uses a whey product for its fresh pan dough but not for its frozen pan dough.

Peter



 

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