Author Topic: Tonight's Pie  (Read 85385 times)

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Offline Glutenboy

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Tonight's Pie
« on: January 23, 2009, 02:17:38 AM »
Margherita with an All-Trumps crust.  The dough was refrigerated for 8 days.  Tasted great.
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline Vlap

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 08:28:15 AM »
Even though I don't know what the all trumps crust is I must say that pizza looks incredible! Giving me something to strive for.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2009, 09:17:11 AM »
Glutenboy,

You have become a real pro with your pizzas  8).

Can you tell us which dough formulation you used for the latest pizza, and also the bake protocol?

Peter

Offline mikeintj

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2009, 09:40:40 AM »

One of the top 5 pizza pics I have seen on this site, and I have been browsing for over a year!

Offline JConk007

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2009, 09:56:18 AM »
I Concur absolutely gorgeous!!
San Marzano Hand crushed??
I am with Peter, please share recipe, and baking methods to achieve such a beautiful delight :pizza:
I have been wanting to try the All Trumps now I need to try it! I assume very little ADY yeast for the 8 days?
I cant stop going back and looking :o
JOhn
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 09:59:51 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2009, 06:40:27 PM »
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

2) The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

Protocol-wise, I started with about half the flour and all the IDY in the Kitchen-Aid pro-500.  I added all the water and mixed with the spiral dough hook (and a little manual coaxing) until thoroughly combined.  Rest a couple of minutes.  Then I added about half the remaining flour and kept mixing (inspired by Varasano).   At this point it turns from batter to really wet dough and the hook has a chance to really develop the gluten.  A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it.  The dough was smooth and extensible.  A bulk room-temperature rise for a couple of hours.  The rise was good but not out of control.  Then I scaled and pulled the dough balls tight, oiled the containers and the doughs (I use the Gladware round containers) and put them in the fridge for a nice long nap.  No degassing like I used to with the Harvest King.  All trumps doesn't seem to forgive and recover from re-balling.  I was more generous with the olive oil (evoo) than usual because the All-Trumps dough has given me sticking issues.  This time, that was resolved.  I made the first batch of pizzas after a 4-and-a-half day rest and used up the last dough on day 8. (I made twelve doughs in all.)

Observations:  The dough handled beautifully.  Twelve hand-stretched pies and not one tear.  I even accidentally caught a stretched skin on the handle of the peel.  It just dimpled and rebounded.  I noticed that after day 6 I had to be more careful as the dough was getting a bit more delicate, but never did I hit the breaking point.  The trade off was worth it.  The older it got, the better the flavor, crumb and texture.  Best dough I've ever made.

The cheese was a mix of Belgioso fresh mozzarella (cryo log) and just a bit of Boar's head whole milk (just for kicks).  I also used some grated grana padano and pecorino romano before the Mozz went on.  The tomatoes were (I'm ashamed to admit the brand, but they were absolutely delicious) S&W crushed tomatoes in the giant can from Costco.  I strained them a bit to thicken them up, added some salt, fresh garlic and a bit of crushed red pepper, used an immersion blender to smooth the texture (just a bit) and they went on the pie like that.  Topped it all off with a pre-bake drizzle of Santini EVOO.  Fresh basil on the way out of the oven.

Don't scoff at the S&W's (I would have) till you've tried them.  They were sweet and mild.  Okay, I'm spent...  :P

-- GB
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 01:20:26 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 07:05:52 PM »
GB,

Thanks for the writeup.

What size pizzas did you make? Also, my recollection is that your oven is a gas oven with the broiler on the bottom and delivers a higher temperature than most. What is that temperature?

If you used one teaspoon of IDY, that translates into less than 4.3 grams, and lowers the baker's percent to something closer to 0.1982%. I mention this in case others decide to try your dough formulation and go with the one teaspoon measure. The lower amount of yeast, if correct, perhaps helped you get a longer fermentation. Out of curiosity, were the dough balls stored in your regular refrigerator? Eight days is quite a long cold fermentation, especially if the dough balls were stored in a typical home refrigerator with a lot of door openings.

You really got good crust coloration and the blistering that often accompanies long fermentation. What many may find interesting is that you added no sugar to the dough. It's all natural residual sugars extracted from the flour that is responsible for the crust coloration, with the help of high oven temperature.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 07:28:12 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline WestCountry

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 08:09:59 PM »
Wow! 

I agree with everyone's kudos above, beautiful pie Glutenboy.

I have a question for everyone about something that really stood out to me in this pie. Please take a look at Glutenboy's first photo and notice around the cornicione there are hundreds of tiny little blister/bubbles (probably like 1-3 millimeters in diameter).

What causes that phenomenon on crust?  (Is that the long fermentation Peter refers to above?, or flour type? or ?)

I'd love to get more of that in my pizza if anyone can help.

Thanks for the support.
Chris

Offline Essen1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 08:27:26 PM »
Chris,

I think it's a combination of the longer fermentation and the yeast dying during the baking process, releasing its last and final gas. I have noticed that in my pies also. However, since sometimes a skin is not always evenly formed, some of the blisters stand out more than other.

Hopefully Peter can shed more light on it.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 08:52:27 PM »
Chris and Mike,

The blistering phenomenon has been the subject of much discussion and debate, even recently, as you will see from this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7740.0.html. I personally believe that the blistering is the result of substantial fermentation, either as a result of using a small amount of yeast in a long fermentation (typically several days for a cold fermentation) or considerably more yeast in a shorter fermentation. I also believe that there may be issues related to yeast death, along the lines discussed by November in the above thread. I am a low yeast user for most of my doughs, especially the NY style, and the fermentation periods tend to be only a few days, so I don't often see blistering in my finished crusts. It is when I go out long on the fermentation curve that I tend to see them. There are several examples at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. Some of the photos didn't highlight the blistering as much as I wish they had, but I usually mentioned the blistering where it was present.

You will also see from the "blistering" thread referenced above that even Tom Lehmann can't tell us how to achieve the blistering. However, he did say (in posts at the PMQ Think Tank) that the blistering tends to be common with frozen doughs. Frozen dough balls contain much more yeast than fresh dough balls, and they can easily overferment when defrosted (they can usually only be used for two days), all of which leads me to suspect that the blistering is related to overfermentation or something just short of it.

Peter

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 08:55:08 PM »
It's my feeling that the blistering (at least in the case of my doughs) comes with the delayed fermentation.  I've read enough posts from others saying that they can achieve this with young (even same day) dough, but I've never been able to get it til day 3 or 4.

Peter:  I'm guessing that pizza at about 14 inches with a 300-gram dough ball.  I leave the thickness factor to you!  As far as the yeast goes... Yeah, I was way off.  A total mistranscription of a previous formula led me to use less yeast than I thought I was.  They say many great discoveries are made by accident.  I would put this right up there next to penicillin; don't you think?  You were right on in your recollection of my oven.  I'm guessing it makes it up into the 600-degree range.  I have to attribute the coloration to the All-Trumps.  The AT dough keeps in the fridge nicely allowing for those sugars to be released as you said.  My refrigerator is crappy, old, and not particularly cold (though the occasional odd item will inexplicably freeze while nothing around it does).  I am at a loss to explain it's superior dough-aging capabilities.  Perhaps the mildew on the magnetic door strip provides some sort of super-insulation effect.
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 09:25:06 PM »
GB,

For those who are interested, for a 300 gram dough ball weight, or 10.58 ounces, and a 14" pizza size, the thickness factor comes to 0.06874.

If you were referring to the two hour room temperature fermentation as the "delayed fermentation", it actually speeds up the fermentation process because of the warming effects of room temperature. So, I interpret what you said as delaying the cold fermentation. You are correct that some are able to get blistering in a same day dough, but I suspect that the yeast quantity may have been on the high side. Pure time alone may not be the explanation. For example, I described a dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332 that was fermented at room temperature for about 20-24 hours, and I did not get the blistering. In that case, to get the dough to ferment that long at room temperature without self destructing, I used a bit more than one half of 1/64 teaspoon of IDY.

Peter

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 09:28:42 PM »
Yeah, when I said "delayed," I was referring to the long cold fermentation.
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline November

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 09:56:32 PM »
I have to attribute the coloration to the All-Trumps.

I withheld my opinion regarding Glutenboy's pizzas until I knew what flour was being used.  Now that I know Glutenboy acheived such impressive results with the non-bromated version of All-Trumps, I have to commend him for his great looking pizzas.  I also agree that the specific form of coloration was likely due to the use of All-Trumps, since many crusts with similar formulas and fermentation periods using different flours produce slightly different colors (hues), darkness not withstanding.  It's a good lesson on how formulation, procedures, and skill can overcome questionable substances that to some degree allow a baker to "cheat."

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Offline WestCountry

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2009, 09:24:08 AM »
Thanks guys for the help on my blistering question. In checking out those other links Peter provided, I had no idea it was such an interesting subject. I will continue to research that :)

Chris

Offline Essen1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2009, 12:17:19 PM »
I wonder what the chemical reaction behind the blistering is, and why there are smaller and larger blisters if the yeast isn't so much involved?
Mike

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Offline koloa101

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2009, 05:33:56 PM »
hey all,
awesome pizza!

today at acme(grocery store chain) i found some gold medal bread flour that is distrubuted by general mills. it is labled as unbleached, unbromated, enriched flour. protein content is 4g per 30g. ingredients are wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, iron, thiamin, mononitrate, riboflavin, and folic acid. 5lbs for 2.50 cents on sale!

is this similar to the all trumps used above. if not, would it be similar to KA's Bread flour?


Offline Essen1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2009, 05:44:51 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for shedding some light on it.

Apparently, some guys on the PMQ forum had the same questions, in regards to blistering, and here's what Tom Lehmann said:


Quote
Yep, see it most of the time. This happens when the dough dries. Keeping them covered helps to eliminate or minimize them if you find them objectionable.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

and...

Quote
I wish I could elaborate further on those little blisters (looks like a case of heat rash), but we have never set about to study them in depth. We see them on well fermented dough, as well as frozen dough. They also seem to be more prevelant on lower absorption doughs. For these reasons, we have a feeling that they are in some way, associated with oxidation of the dough skin, but we haven't consucted a study where we have attempted to control them.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


I think I was a bit off with my yeast theory.  ???
Mike

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Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2009, 05:50:42 PM »
Koloa -

That GM bread flour you found is probably basically Gold Medal Harvest King, which is the flour I was using a lot before I got ahold of the All-Trumps.  It makes a fine crust.  My experience with it has been:

1) It takes more hydration than the AT (though I would have expected the reverse).
2) It won't brown as well as a dough made with AT.

Overall though, it was my previous favorite.

Here's a pic I posted a while back of a pie made with Harvest King.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 05:53:06 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2009, 06:01:04 PM »
today at acme(grocery store chain) i found some gold medal bread flour that is distrubuted by general mills. it is labled as unbleached, unbromated, enriched flour. protein content is 4g per 30g. ingredients are wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, iron, thiamin, mononitrate, riboflavin, and folic acid. 5lbs for 2.50 cents on sale!

is this similar to the all trumps used above. if not, would it be similar to KA's Bread flour?

koloa101,

You can't rely on the label information for accuracy because of rounding and other possible factors. Both the General Mills bread flour and the King Arthur bread flour labels state that there is 4 grams of protein for a 30 gram serving size, which translates into a protein content of 13.3%. However, we know that the King Arthur bread flour has a protein content of 12.7%, as noted in the Special column at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/Nutritional-Analysis.pdf ("Special" is the name used by King Arthur for the bread flour sold to professionals). If I had to guess, I would say that the KABF bread flour has a bit more protein than the GM bread flour. If the GM bread flour you saw is the "Better for Bread" flour, formerly the Harvest King flour, its protein content is 12 +/-0.3% (see http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc). The All Trumps high gluten flour has a protein content of 14.2% (see http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/AllTrumpsUnbl%20Brom50121.doc).

You perhaps will want to study all of the above documents for purposes of the final exam.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For the most recent link to the GM All Trumps flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-flour-50-lb/50111000

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2009, 03:03:34 PM »
Peter --

I went back to correct my yeast measurement, and according to a yeast-conversion table I downloaded from  www.theartisan.net, 1 teaspoon of IDY weighs 2.7 grams.  This would put my corrected yeast percentage at .177632%.  You gave a corrected figure of .1982% for 1 teaspoon.  May I ask what you used as a reference?  Is that figure a result of your own personal weight measurements?  Just curious in the interest of accuracy for future formulations.
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2009, 04:32:23 PM »
Peter --

I went back to correct my yeast measurement, and according to a yeast-conversion table I downloaded from  www.theartisan.net, 1 teaspoon of IDY weighs 2.7 grams.  This would put my corrected yeast percentage at .177632%.  You gave a corrected figure of .1982% for 1 teaspoon.  May I ask what you used as a reference?  Is that figure a result of your own personal weight measurements?  Just curious in the interest of accuracy for future formulations.

GB,

I am very familiar with the conversion table at theartisan.net (http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm), and refer to it frequently when members ask about conversions from one form of yeast to another. In fact, I have a copy of that conversion table next to my computer at all times and have had many occasions to study it. However, one of the things that I noticed about that conversion table is that the conversions are not exactly linear across all values. The variations aren't huge, but they are there. I think also that some of the variations are due to using numbers that go out to only two decimal places, which can lead to some rounding.

Also, in my case, I use a conversion factor that either Steve or I came up with some time ago that was based on actual weight measurements. I ultimately embedded that value in all of the dough calculating tools. As a practical matter, the differences are not particularly material when you take into account that numbers are often rounded off and volume measurements of yeast aren't perfect. For example, most people, without even really thinking, just measure out things in their own way, whether it is a rounded measuring spoon, a scant measuring spoon or, like me, a leveled measuring spoon. Also, there are different designs and shapes of measuring spoons made of different materials that can translate into slightly different results. Add to this that as yeast ages or takes on moisture or gives up moisture, that can affect its weight and ultimate efficiency when used in a dough formulation. In my case, as my yeast supply ages, I often add a small pinch extra to compensate for the age factor. So, trying to compare 0.177632% with 0.1982% means less in a practical sense than you might think.

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2009, 12:19:55 PM »
Glutenboy,

Nice to see you are still producing those works of art.

No doubt they are some of the best pizza photos on the web.

Congratulations, I'm sure you always get rave reviews from your family and friends.

A question; Have you noted the effect of the oiling of the dough prior to refrigeration on the final browning of your crust after the bake? And have you experimented with the use of different types of oil and their effect on the final product? If so, what are your conclusions?

I set up the experiment using your protocol and using EVOO, Vegatable, no oil, to see the results of using these oils. (I see it as a variation of a dough dressing, but it is applied before the fermentation as opposed to before the bake.)

Again you setting a very high standard, Congratulations again.

MWTC  :chef:




Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2009, 03:12:26 AM »
MWTC --

I've never done a side-by-side browning comparison of oiled vs unoiled dough or one with different kinds of oil.  I've pretty much stuck with the EVOO for any of my pizza-related oil needs.  Since my experience with the All-Trumps is a bit limited, I don't know whether to attribute that golden browning to the flour, oil, or a combination of the two.  Perhaps Peter might have a more informed opinion than mine to contribute.  TAKE IT AWAY, PETER!  ;D
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2009, 10:25:03 AM »
MWTC --

I've never done a side-by-side browning comparison of oiled vs unoiled dough or one with different kinds of oil.  I've pretty much stuck with the EVOO for any of my pizza-related oil needs.  Since my experience with the All-Trumps is a bit limited, I don't know whether to attribute that golden browning to the flour, oil, or a combination of the two.  Perhaps Peter might have a more informed opinion than mine to contribute.  TAKE IT AWAY, PETER!  ;D

MWTC,

I have not done any side-by-side tests using different types of oils either. Once in a while, I will read things over at the PMQ Think Tank about using different types of oils, but it is usually in the context of taste and cost, and mainly for professional pizza operators. An example is this PMQTT post by Tom Lehmann: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=13122#13122. Or it might be about using shortening in lieu of oils, such as discussed at another Lehmann PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=6662#6662.

From the standpoint of crust color development related to the use of oil, I think the quantity of oil and where and how it is used is something to think about. For example, if there is a fair amount of oil used in a pan, for example, like the steel pans you use, the good thermal transfer characteristics of the oil, along with those of the pans, will cause the bottom crust to brown as the oil, in effect, "fries" the bottom crust. That is what is behind the Pizza Hut pan pizzas. If there is a lot of surface oil on top of the pizza, that oil serves to capture many of the flavors of the various toppings as they bake. Otherwise, if volatile, those flavor components may burn off and disappear from the pizza. To the extent that the surface oil is on the unbaked rims of the pizzas, there will be some contribution to crust coloration because of the good heat transfer characteristics of the oil. It may be that some oils work better at this than others, but I have not studied those effects. I think that the oil in the dough, even in large quantities, is less effective at increasing crust coloration than if applied topically to the unbaked dough. The residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking and their Maillard reaction and caramelization effects are more likely to contribute to crust coloration than oils topically applied. At least that is my opinion having made many high oil, high sugar doughs.

Peter