Author Topic: Tonight's Pie (Read 44021 times)

Glutenboy · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2009, 03:03:34 PM »

Peter --

I went back to correct my yeast measurement, and according to a yeast-conversion table I downloaded from www.theartisan.net, 1 teaspoon of IDY weighs 2.7 grams. This would put my corrected yeast percentage at .177632%. You gave a corrected figure of .1982% for 1 teaspoon. May I ask what you used as a reference? Is that figure a result of your own personal weight measurements? Just curious in the interest of accuracy for future formulations.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2009, 04:32:23 PM »

Quote from: Glutenboy on January 25, 2009, 03:03:34 PM

Peter --

I went back to correct my yeast measurement, and according to a yeast-conversion table I downloaded from www.theartisan.net, 1 teaspoon of IDY weighs 2.7 grams. This would put my corrected yeast percentage at .177632%. You gave a corrected figure of .1982% for 1 teaspoon. May I ask what you used as a reference? Is that figure a result of your own personal weight measurements? Just curious in the interest of accuracy for future formulations.

GB,

I am very familiar with the conversion table at theartisan.net (http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm), and refer to it frequently when members ask about conversions from one form of yeast to another. In fact, I have a copy of that conversion table next to my computer at all times and have had many occasions to study it. However, one of the things that I noticed about that conversion table is that the conversions are not exactly linear across all values. The variations aren't huge, but they are there. I think also that some of the variations are due to using numbers that go out to only two decimal places, which can lead to some rounding.

Also, in my case, I use a conversion factor that either Steve or I came up with some time ago that was based on actual weight measurements. I ultimately embedded that value in all of the dough calculating tools. As a practical matter, the differences are not particularly material when you take into account that numbers are often rounded off and volume measurements of yeast aren't perfect. For example, most people, without even really thinking, just measure out things in their own way, whether it is a rounded measuring spoon, a scant measuring spoon or, like me, a leveled measuring spoon. Also, there are different designs and shapes of measuring spoons made of different materials that can translate into slightly different results. Add to this that as yeast ages or takes on moisture or gives up moisture, that can affect its weight and ultimate efficiency when used in a dough formulation. In my case, as my yeast supply ages, I often add a small pinch extra to compensate for the age factor. So, trying to compare 0.177632% with 0.1982% means less in a practical sense than you might think.

Peter

MWTC · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:19:55 PM »

Glutenboy,

Nice to see you are still producing those works of art.

No doubt they are some of the best pizza photos on the web.

Congratulations, I'm sure you always get rave reviews from your family and friends.

A question; Have you noted the effect of the oiling of the dough prior to refrigeration on the final browning of your crust after the bake? And have you experimented with the use of different types of oil and their effect on the final product? If so, what are your conclusions?

I set up the experiment using your protocol and using EVOO, Vegatable, no oil, to see the results of using these oils. (I see it as a variation of a dough dressing, but it is applied before the fermentation as opposed to before the bake.)

Again you setting a very high standard, Congratulations again.

MWTC

Glutenboy · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2009, 03:12:26 AM »

MWTC --

I've never done a side-by-side browning comparison of oiled vs unoiled dough or one with different kinds of oil. I've pretty much stuck with the EVOO for any of my pizza-related oil needs. Since my experience with the All-Trumps is a bit limited, I don't know whether to attribute that golden browning to the flour, oil, or a combination of the two. Perhaps Peter might have a more informed opinion than mine to contribute. TAKE IT AWAY, PETER!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #24 on:** January 29, 2009, 10:25:03 AM »

Quote from: Glutenboy on January 29, 2009, 03:12:26 AM

MWTC --

I've never done a side-by-side browning comparison of oiled vs unoiled dough or one with different kinds of oil. I've pretty much stuck with the EVOO for any of my pizza-related oil needs. Since my experience with the All-Trumps is a bit limited, I don't know whether to attribute that golden browning to the flour, oil, or a combination of the two. Perhaps Peter might have a more informed opinion than mine to contribute. TAKE IT AWAY, PETER!

MWTC,

I have not done any side-by-side tests using different types of oils either. Once in a while, I will read things over at the PMQ Think Tank about using different types of oils, but it is usually in the context of taste and cost, and mainly for professional pizza operators. An example is this PMQTT post by Tom Lehmann: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=13122#13122. Or it might be about using shortening in lieu of oils, such as discussed at another Lehmann PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=6662#6662.

From the standpoint of crust color development related to the use of oil, I think the quantity of oil and where and how it is used is something to think about. For example, if there is a fair amount of oil used in a pan, for example, like the steel pans you use, the good thermal transfer characteristics of the oil, along with those of the pans, will cause the bottom crust to brown as the oil, in effect, "fries" the bottom crust. That is what is behind the Pizza Hut pan pizzas. If there is a lot of surface oil on top of the pizza, that oil serves to capture many of the flavors of the various toppings as they bake. Otherwise, if volatile, those flavor components may burn off and disappear from the pizza. To the extent that the surface oil is on the unbaked rims of the pizzas, there will be some contribution to crust coloration because of the good heat transfer characteristics of the oil. It may be that some oils work better at this than others, but I have not studied those effects. I think that the oil in the dough, even in large quantities, is less effective at increasing crust coloration than if applied topically to the unbaked dough. The residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking and their Maillard reaction and caramelization effects are more likely to contribute to crust coloration than oils topically applied. At least that is my opinion having made many high oil, high sugar doughs.

Peter

MWTC · « **Reply #25 on:** January 29, 2009, 11:01:39 AM »

Thanks Peter & Glutenboy.

I am looking forward to see the effect of the oil in my setup experiment. I will report back with the results.

I can't duplicate the oven temperature that Glutenboy can achieve with his oven. My oven gets to 550. And the 2stone can get well past 600 degrees as well as 600 degrees but the heat is always approximately 200 degrees above the stone temperature. Glutenboy's, I assume, is a consistant 600 degrees on the stone and the air in the oven. With the 2stone at 600 degree stone temperature I achieve great leoparding not the golden color of Glutenboys.

I am using the same flour that Glutenboy is using, All Trumps, Unbleached, Non-bromated. It is the best High Gluten flour that I have found. Better than KASL, Honeyville, and Guisto. IMHO

MWTC

Glutenboy,

It would be great if you would experiment with the oil as I am to see if it changes your results.

Glutenboy · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2009, 12:49:01 PM »

MWTC --

I did in fact make the batch of dough before this last one without any oil on the doughs. The problem was that this dough (and I suppose any dough I've made) was very sticky and difficult to remove cleanly from the Gladware containiers I use. It resulted in some tearing, misshaping, rim deflating, and general dough-handling difficulties. When I used the evoo, every ounce of this aggravation was avoided. That kind of confounds the experiment because I'm obviously so much happier with the olive oil. I think I would need a proofing box with some variety of nonstick surface in order to eliminate those problems and have a fair trial. If anyone has any bright ideas about how to set up this Frankendough experiment, please chime in.

-- GB

MWTC · « **Reply #27 on:** January 29, 2009, 02:23:05 PM »

This is the Pan with Lid that I always use. It fits great into my refrigerator. In fact I use two of them stacked on top of each other.

http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=453550&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fshopping%2Eyahoo%2Ecom%2Fs%3Abakeware%3A4168%2Dbrand%3Dnordic%2520ware%3B%5Fylt%3Daqtbaxffnia%5Fwmac5ub90n3%5Fnbsf%3Fy%3Dnnnn%26clink%3D%26view%3D%26ovstart%3D3%26b%3D76

Have you told us how long you allow the dough to warm up out of the refrigerator before the bake? If not, how long do you allow it to warm up?

koloa101 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 29, 2009, 04:08:11 PM »

i found a dealer that can sell me a 50# of unbleached unbromated high gluten all trumps for 18.50. the catch, its a 2 hr drive back and forth. anyone know of a company that can ship?

MWTC · « **Reply #29 on:** January 29, 2009, 04:43:39 PM »

Contact General Mills and tell them what you want. They will give you a number of the local rep. in your area or state. Call him and he//she will give you a list of suppliers. Call them and ask if they have a cash and carry set up for the general public. This is what I did and there was only one company in the Detroit area that carried it. It is 1 1/4 hour from my work. I now have an account with them and I feel its worth the drive to get that quality of flour.

JConk007 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 29, 2009, 08:43:31 PM »

Kaloa,
You are west coast?
I would not drive 2 hrs for this flour www.pennmac.com has this and caputo 00 ( and a lot of other cool pizza stuff. my time for 2 hrs is at least $100? so the minor shipping charge is not an issue. Grab some Grande cheese and a few tomatoes and have Rose ship it to you. Spend your time experimenting with the flour not driving around the country side.
Enjoy and have fun creating your special pie
John

koloa101 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 29, 2009, 11:44:58 PM »

yup, thats what i did. the closest dealer is 2 hrs away.

Quote from: MWTC on January 29, 2009, 04:43:39 PM

Contact General Mills and tell them what you want. They will give you a number of the local rep. in your area or state. Call him and he//she will give you a list of suppliers. Call them and ask if they have a cash and carry set up for the general public. This is what I did and there was only one company in the Detroit area that carried it. It is 1 1/4 hour from my work. I now have an account with them and I feel its worth the drive to get that quality of flour.

id much rather pay the shipping since i drive enough during the work week! i spoke to Rose earlier today. She is going to call me first thing in the morning if the warehouse carries the unbromated version all trumps. i hope thats the case.

grande cheese is definitely where its at. my friend, who owns a pizzeria, gave me some to try on my home made pizzas. at his shop, he uses pillsbury high gluten flour. i think his pizzas are really good. all im thinking now is that i have to try all trumps flour, with an italian starter, grande cheese, and a nice marinara...

my mr-148 arrived today as well.

Quote from: JConk007 on January 29, 2009, 08:43:31 PM

Kaloa,
You are west coast?
I would not drive 2 hrs for this flour www.pennmac.com has this and caputo 00 ( and a lot of other cool pizza stuff. my time for 2 hrs is at least $100? so the minor shipping charge is not an issue. Grab some Grande cheese and a few tomatoes and have Rose ship it to you. Spend your time experimenting with the flour not driving around the country side.
Enjoy and have fun creating your special pie
John

koloa101 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 30, 2009, 11:55:56 AM »

good news, Rose said that All-Trumps unbromated unbleached high gluten flour should be available for order sometime next week!

MWTC · « **Reply #33 on:** January 30, 2009, 05:15:06 PM »

Did you see the price of that 50lb bag of flour.

$39.95 plus shipping, which will be $20.00 or more. You could buy 2 bags and and not need any for a year or more. Just store it properly, Peter could tell you how. Plan a nice trip (dinner and a movie) with your sweetheart and you will win on every front.

Just a final thought.

Jackitup · « **Reply #34 on:** January 31, 2009, 12:17:09 AM »

Just to rub it in ;-) I get 50# bags og Kyrol Hi Gluten flour from the Con Agra mill here in Hastings, MN for 15 bucks or so and it's 4 blocks from my house. I go pay in the office, they load it in my pickup at the dock, and I'm home 10-15 minutes later. Gotta love it. Thay also have a lot of other flours available but you have buy 50# at a time.
Jon

koloa101 · « **Reply #35 on:** January 31, 2009, 02:08:53 AM »

yea i know right! however if i want to play, i gotta pay.

i didnt want to use a whole day driving to pick up flour. id rather much spend it on rest and having fun with my 1 yr old daughter.

she sits in her high chair staring at me while i make a mess in the kitchen. it is pricey, but i figured this will be some pretty good pizza flour so i might as well go big and get the 50 pounder. about an hour away, there is a dealer that sells north dokata high gluten flour. it may be very similar and its half the price. maybe ill try that in a few months.

Quote from: MWTC on January 30, 2009, 05:15:06 PM

Did you see the price of that 50lb bag of flour. $39.95 plus shipping, which will be $20.00 or more. You could buy 2 bags and and not need any for a year or more. Just store it properly, Peter could tell you how. Plan a nice trip (dinner and a movie) with your sweetheart and you will win on every front.

Just a final thought.

MWTC · « **Reply #36 on:** February 06, 2009, 02:52:31 PM »

Quote from: MWTC on January 29, 2009, 02:23:05 PM

Have you told us how long you allow the dough to warm up out of the refrigerator before the bake? If not, how long do you allow it to warm up?

Glutenboy,

I guess you missed my last question, would you address that one. Plus I also would like to request that you tell us about your oven. What temperature are you baking at? Pete stated that he thought that you are at 600 degrees. Also how long are your bakes?

I performed the first bake at 550 degrees,with your oiling technique, and I saw just the starting of the color that you achieve. I could assume, if I could get to the 600 degree mark that I would see the same results as you achieve. I am continuing to experiment.

MWTC

Glutenboy · « **Reply #37 on:** February 06, 2009, 03:28:33 PM »

MWTC -

Sorry I failed to address your last question. I had a cheap oven thermometer that went up to I think 550 and the numbers burned off leaving shiny metal. I must assume therefore that I bake above 550. My bakes run longer than you'd expect. Probably around 7-9 minutes. I go by perceived doneness rather than time. Logic would dictate that a longer bake would lead to a dry, brittle crust, but that has not been my experience at all. I get a nice foldable crust and rim thats crisp on the outside and tender on the inside. Again I don't know if I hold the oil responsible for the coloration. Even though the unoiled dough was giving me other aggravations, I was still achieving nice browning. Let me know what your results are. I'll keep my eyes open!

MWTC · « **Reply #38 on:** February 06, 2009, 03:44:46 PM »

Quote from: Glutenboy on February 06, 2009, 03:28:33 PM

MWTC -
Sorry I failed to address your last question.

Still didn't answer it.

Also, how about taking a photo of the underside of the pizza, so we can see the doneness that you are achieving.

So, you don't know the exact degree of your oven bake?

"Logic would dictate that a longer bake would lead to a dry, brittle crust, but that has not been my experience at all."

What I get is toughness at 550 degrees.

Glutenboy · « **Reply #39 on:** February 06, 2009, 03:58:30 PM »

whoops...

I probably let the dough rise out of the fridge from anywhere between 30-90 minutes depending how busy I am. Usually I'm baking for friends and not timing things carefully. I do know that there's a window beyond which the dough starts to look a bit overrisen, but usually a good smack and a careful stretch create a fine finished product. Did I answer it this time?