Author Topic: Tonight's Pie  (Read 65480 times)

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Offline BigMike

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2009, 08:31:03 AM »
Glutenboy,
Can you tell us about how your oven is configured.  I read about the broiler on the bottom (sounds similar to mine).  Do you put your quarry tiles on the floor of the oven?  Lowest rack?  Do you put additional tiles on a rack above the pizza to get more heat from the top?  How long do you heat the oven before getting the first pies in?  Do you set it to the highest temp or broil?  Do you ever need to finish in the broiler?  Thanks in advance.


Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2009, 12:53:45 PM »
Big Mike --

Tiles on the lowest rack, oven set on broil, preheat for at least about an hour, no tiles above, and no finishing under the broiler; it just bakes well on the bottom rack.  I find, however, that every oven I use is different and requires a bit of trial and error to find the sweet spot.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 12:55:32 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2009, 10:06:27 AM »
Glutenboy, I just wanted to say that's an amazing looking work of art. Beautiful crust, THAT'S a pizza!
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2009, 11:45:56 PM »
Thanks, NY Pizzastriver.  Sorry I've neglected this thread and your requests lately, but life gets in my way.  I made these 2 pies with a 9-day-old dough made with the formulation on page 1.  The pics aren't as pretty, but the pizza was great.  Best crust I've gotten to date.  Sour and crisp yet pliant.  MWTC:  I promise to give your formulation a shot in the very near future and to take a pic of my oven as soon as I clean it!
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2009, 01:30:43 AM »
Nice pie, I will give your formulation a try also as I did with MWTC's soon. Right now the 'kitchen is closed' for remodel at my house. I will surely need some kind of rehab treatment for pizza withdrawl if this thing takes too long???
Jon
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2009, 11:43:24 PM »
Thanks, NY Pizzastriver.  Sorry I've neglected this thread and your requests lately, but life gets in my way.  I made these 2 pies with a 9-day-old dough made with the formulation on page 1.  The pics aren't as pretty, but the pizza was great.  Best crust I've gotten to date.  Sour and crisp yet pliant.  MWTC:  I promise to give your formulation a shot in the very near future and to take a pic of my oven as soon as I clean it!

Not pretty? Your pizza's are incredible looking, just fabulous. No problem with the life thing, lol. 9 days, wow.
 :o
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2009, 11:59:00 PM »
Right now the 'kitchen is closed' for remodel at my house. I will surely need some kind of rehab treatment for pizza withdrawl if this thing takes too long???
Jon

Jon,
You do know that's a wide open door for me to recommend various sedatives. (joke)  ;D 
Instead I'll just say 'hang in there brother, you'll make it!
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2009, 12:37:48 AM »
Jon,
You do know that's a wide open door for me to recommend various sedatives. (joke)  ;D 
Instead I'll just say 'hang in there brother, you'll make it!


That's allright, I have them allready, ambien is a wonder pill for sleeping. And if I need  something stronger I'm pretty good friends with the doc's I work with here in the PICU  ;)
Jon
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!

Offline JConk007

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2009, 08:33:42 AM »
Jon,
Trinity could recommend some micro wave alternatives ???
Just kidding 3 yrs ago I did my Kitchen to the studs  and more. Just add 50% to budget and 100% to time and you'll be fine
I would say your Thanksgiving will be a memorable one this year  :-D
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2009, 07:48:44 PM »
Well, I still have the grill in the back yard. Maybe toss a couple steaks on........
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2009, 11:28:44 AM »
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

2) The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

Protocol-wise, I started with about half the flour and all the IDY in the Kitchen-Aid pro-500.  I added all the water and mixed with the spiral dough hook (and a little manual coaxing) until thoroughly combined.  Rest a couple of minutes.  Then I added about half the remaining flour and kept mixing (inspired by Varasano).   At this point it turns from batter to really wet dough and the hook...


GB,
Your crust is one of the great looking ones (love the pimples!) that doesn't get into the obscure foreign realm  of bacteria breeding and cultures. Though I know this would give me the NY pizza I strive for, the whole "I have been cooking with the same culture for 15 years" scares me. How does it keep growing? Do you feed it spinach so it stays nice and strong? All a mystery to me. So, let's get back to your dough!

Ever hand knead??? If so, lets say I were to half this formula for 4 balls. What would you recommend in time and protocol using the "quarter fold" method?
i.e.: Would you hand knead all 4 balls at once, then divide? Separate then knead individually, or just not try it without a mixer?
Thanks,
J

« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 11:30:31 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2009, 01:37:03 PM »
Wow, it's hard to recommend or not recommend things without having tried them.  Let's see what limited insight I can offer.  First, I think the mixer makes a difference, especially when you add the flour incrementally as I do.  I can't imagine hand-kneading a gloppy dough with a third of the flour missing, and even if I did, I don't think it would have the same impact on gluten development.  That's not to say that hand kneading couldn't give a fine result; the process would just be completely different.  As far as kneading after dividing, I'm not a fan.  Something I used to do when I was just getting started.  My two cents is do the kneading in bulk.  Then a bulk rise.  Then divide, shape, oil (if that's what you do) and refrigerate.  Once the dough balls are formed, the deed is done and it's time to let them relax and ferment so that when you take them out for the final counter rise (I give it at least 45 minutes at room temperature), the dough will stretch easily and evenly.  This advice is born of having made lots of mistakes and discoveries over the years.  It's not necessarily the only right answer, but it works for me.  Hope that was some help.  Any more questions feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 11:51:12 AM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2009, 03:44:54 PM »
GB, thanks man. Good thought. I think when I try your dough (soon) I'll probably do the ''batter'' with a whisk method with the first 1/3- 1/2 of the flour for a few minutes to "glutenize", so to speak. Then add 80% of the rest and do the heavy spoon until your arm falls off, that's been my method so far. (lol). Then hand knead the bulk ball, with a rest period as you and Varasano speaks of, until it feels right. I keep the remaining few grams of flour aside as when you hand knead, as I'm sure you know, it goes through a "keeps getting too sticky" period for the first 3-5 minutes, so the rest is to flour hands and board, it gets in there. I agree hand kneading all at once is the way. Best to get the whole mass from lumpy knotty mess to smooth tackiness all together. I give a few fold to each to shape each ball, but just 20 seconds or so.

Yours is definitely my next jump, when I get ready I might ask a couple Q's if unclear on protocol on re-read, so thanks much for offering the help.

So, did you cut your cleaning lock!? I'm really getting a sense of how the dough dries out by the time it browns when baking 5-6 mins at these low 550 temps. Well, dries out compared to what happens at higher temps anyway. I think going to 7-800 degrees is the next plan...also soon!

Then comes sourdough cultures, maybe. SD girl, and others, are telling me how much better it is. Aside from my questions about it above, I see threads about creating a "bacteria breeding facility''...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8179.msg70425.html#msg70425
and say yeah suuuure, sign me up!!
 :-\
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 03:49:41 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2009, 09:30:08 AM »
I have 2 questions in reading this further. First let me retract the oven question, I found that info on page 1, sorry.  ::)

Peter had advised me to add sugar to the Lehmann recipe if it was going to rest in the fridge for over 2 days to basically feed the yeast. How can this dough make it 4-8 days without any sugar?

Also, I can't find all trumps, or any other flour aside from King A's unbleached bread, anywhere in 3 towns. So is it worth trying this with sifted King A's?

Thanks,
J.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 09:35:53 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2009, 09:55:05 AM »
J,

What you say about the Lehmann dough formulation is correct. However, there are ways of altering the chemistry and physics of dough making to produce a dough that can cold ferment for several days--even for weeks and without using any sugar in the dough. I developed my own ways of doing this, but others have developed their own ways that differ from mine. You will see examples of this by checking out the links in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8152.msg70097.html#msg70097. In one instance, there was sugar used (by MWTC).

If you can't find a source of All Trumps, you may be able to use just bread flour or possibly bread flour that has been supplemented with vital wheat gluten to yield a blend that has the same protein content (14.2%) as the All Trumps. You might also want to know that Glutenboy himself used bread flour, specifically, Harvest King bread flour, to make the pizza shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.msg38409.html#msg38409. The Harvest King flour has since been replaced at the retail level by General Mills by the Better for Bread flour. That flour is widely available in supermarkets.

Peter


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2009, 11:24:44 AM »
Ah yes. I see in your link with the Harvest flour he "degassed" after 2 days, then back in fridge for 2 more.

Quote
Gladware containers with no oil, and into the fridge.  They expanded in the fridge before the cold had a chance to slow them down.  2 days later I degassed the dough, pulled the doughballs tight, oiled them EXTREMELY LIGHTLY with evoo as well as their containers, and put them back in the cooler for 2 more days.  Started using them at 4 days old.

Seemingly the All Trumps didn't need this, as he said in this thread. So, would you say using King Arthur's would require degassing? OR would you say even with degassing it would be pretty much like my Lehmann's pies as I'm using the same flour again? I'm happy to degas if need be.

Oh, btw, ...how exactly does one degas dough?  :D
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2009, 11:51:40 AM »
J,

It is hard to say just from reading Glutenboy's posts how the King Arthur bread flour will compare with the Harvest King (Better for Bread) flour or the All Trumps high-gluten flour. Three different flours used to make doughs at three different times under different operating conditions can yield different results. However, being the punctilious sort who monitors and measures everything, if I were using the King Arthur bread flour with Glutenboy's dough formulation I would use the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html to monitor the progress (expansion) of the dough. If it rose too much too soon, then I would evaluate whether to degas the dough and return it to the refrigerator.

Degassing can mean slightly different things to different people. For some, it might mean slamming the dough against a hard surface to expel the gases; for others, it might mean gently pressing the dough with the fingers to allow the gases to escape, possibly followed with some stretch and folding. If done far enough in advance of using such that the dough has a chance to recover, it might not matter all that much which method is used. However, I personally would use the gentler approach if the time before using is short.

Peter

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2009, 12:15:20 PM »
I am a kinder, gentler degasser.  I pull the dough ball sides down toward the bottom, expelling the air as I go until it is tight again, even passing it through the ring made by my thumb and finger to reshape it.  Then I seal the seam at the bottom by pinching.  Works well with the HK dough, bad idea with the AT.  Tip: If you plan to degas, don't oil the dough balls before refrigerating.  The oil keeps the dough from adhering to itself when you make the seam at the bottom.  Only oil it after the ball is shaped for its final refrigerator rest.   Another tip: I don't do any kneading at this stage.  I try to preserve the skin that has formed on the dough's outer surface by simply pulling it down evenly.  Yes, some of that outside becomes inside at the bottom, but no inside becomes outside -- if you follow me!!!  ::)  Finally, how will the KA flour respond compared to the other two?  I have no idea!  These discoveries are usually the product of bad decisions on my part.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 12:45:52 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2009, 07:21:02 PM »
After having admired Glutenboy's pizzas for so long, I decided to give Glutenboy's dough formulation a try. For my purposes, I scaled the recipe down to a single dough ball size, or around 302 grams for a 14" pizza. Since I don't have any All Trumps or other high-gluten flour on hand, I used King Arthur bread flour (KABF) supplemented with Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (VWG) to increase the protein content of the KABF from 12.7% to 14.2%, which is the protein content of the All Trumps high-gluten flour. I used November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate the amount of VWG I would need to create the final blend with a protein content of 14.2%. Since Glutenboy did not indicate what water temperature he used, I used water that came out of the refrigerator and warmed up at room temperature to around 56 degrees F as I was rounding up all of the ingredients to make the dough.

For purposes of coming up with a dough formulation to use, I relied on the ingredients and quantities given by Glutenboy in Reply 5 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66669.html#msg66669. Then, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following dough formulation:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
192.95 g  |  6.81 oz | 0.43 lbs
117.8 g  |  4.16 oz | 0.26 lbs
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.13 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
4.82 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
315.96 g | 11.14 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = N/A

* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 187.58 g./6.62 oz. KABF and 5.37 g./0.19 oz. Hodgson Mill VWG (1.79 t.)
Note: For a single 14" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I prepared the dough in accordance with Glutenboy's instructions. However, since my KitchenAid stand mixer has a C-hook, I had to intervene in the process from time to time, using my hands and a thin blade spatula, to help the dough mixing/kneading process along. The finished dough weight was 315 grams, which I trimmed back to 302 grams in accordance with Glutenboy's instructions, and the finished dough temperature was 72.5 degrees F. In preparation for placing the dough into my refrigerator and to monitor the expansion of the dough during the fermentation process, I placed two poppy seeds 1" apart at the center of the dough ball, in accordance with the method described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. The dough ball was placed in a Pyrex glass bowl with a lid. The dough remained in the refrigerator for 8 days. After 2 days, according to the poppy seed spacing, the dough increased by 20%; after 3 days, 42.4%; after 5 days, 95.3%; after 6 days, 126%; after 7 days, 260%; and after 8 days, 297%. I mention these data points because they tell us why Glutenboy's dough can have such a long usable dough life. Simply stated, it is the small amount of yeast (0.19817%) that is used to make the dough, the low water temperature (at least in my case), and the small dough size (302 grams, or 10.65 oz.). It takes almost no time at all for such a small dough ball to cool down once placed into the refrigerator. In my case, after 8 days of cold fermentation, when I decided to use the dough, I found the dough to still have some elasticity as I opened up the dough ball to its final desired size of 14". As a result, I am certain that the dough ball could have lasted at least a few more days in the refrigerator.

I decided to use the dough to make a clam/bacon pizza. I had wanted to use fresh clams but was not able to locate a supply locally without having to drive into Dallas. So, I used a 10-oz. can of whole baby clams. I used the clam juices along with some white wine, extra virgin olive oil, and butter as the base of my sauce. I reduced the liquids until I had a thin sauce and added several diced cloves of garlic, the clams, freshly ground black pepper and a small amount of dried oregano. For the cheese, I used a blend of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, NY sharp white cheddar cheese, and Parmigiano-Reggiano Parmesan cheese. The mozzarella and cheddar cheeses were comminuted/diced in my Cuisinart food processor along with the Parmesan cheese and some more dried oregano. The final major topping, the bacon, was partially cooked and cut into good-sized pieces.

The pizza was baked on a pizza stone that had been preheated for an hour. In order to get a stone temperature of around 600 degrees F, which is the temperature that Glutenboy mentioned in this thread, I removed the lowest oven rack position from the oven and placed the stone on three pieces of bricks on the oven floor, which had the effect of bringing the stone closer to the bottom electric heating element. With this arrangement, the stone reached a temperature of close to 600 degrees F. The pizza was baked on the stone for about 6 minutes, following which I removed the pizza from the stone to the topmost oven rack position (without the broiler on) for about a minute more in order to get increased top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. Both the crust and the pizza itself were first rate. The crust was chewy and crispy but with a fairly soft center outside of the rim area. The crust had good color and taste.

Glutenboy's dough formulation has significant merit. However, as the dough expansion data indicates, the dough is unlikely to be usable after only a few days because of insufficient fermentation. One would have to use more yeast and warmer water to speed up the process.

Peter

EDIT (3/12/13): Corrected the Calculator link
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 07:12:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2009, 07:26:05 PM »
A couple more photos...

Peter