Author Topic: Tonight's Pie  (Read 61174 times)

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Offline JConk007

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2009, 09:31:50 PM »
That Pizza looks great Peter!
I am close to Conn. but never had a clam pizza (new haven), and I love clams. The sauce sound fantastic too!
really nice. Hope to try that one someday myself.
JOhn
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2009, 11:48:57 PM »
Peter, this is a nice pie. I was thrown by the appearance until I read about the white wine clam sauce. Very inventive, and I love shrimp on pie, so why not clams.

I can't believe you don't have a decent fish market there, then again I can't get the right flour here, so...

Well done mate.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2009, 11:03:39 AM »
I can't believe you don't have a decent fish market there

J,

At my local supermarket, which is a high-end store, I was told that I could order clams but they would be frozen and I would have to buy a several pound package. I would have to buy the entire package since they are not allowed to split packages. At around $8 a pound, that is more than I would want to use. There are no fish markets as such near me. In general, if I want really good seafood, I have to drive into Dallas.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2009, 12:21:21 PM »
Peter, that's too bad. I think of growing up on the Great South Bay where we'd go clamming on a friends dad's clam boat. You would get 200 little necks in an hour. The things we take for granted as a youth eh?

Strange looking boats, flat with a phone booth type stand up cabin. I can't locate many pics of them, perhaps boats of yesteryear, but I found this one covered for Christmas. Oddly it was taken on ... The Great South Bay! Ah the memories.
http://www.tsocktsarina.com/blog/images/2007/12/xmasclam.jpg -pic



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Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2009, 12:50:05 PM »
Peter -

Those pies look terrific!  I'm glad you like my formulation.  I do wonder what effect the flour substitution had on the apparent hydration (as opposed to the actual percentage) because if you'll look at my Harvest King recipe, I used around 65 percent to get the same dough-handling properties that I get with around 60 for the All Trumps.  (I still don't get that by the way!)  I will tell you that the water I use is from the tap and warm.  I haven't measured the temp, but I'm saying above room temp though not 100 degrees like you would use to activate ADY.  Then I do get a pretty good counter rise before balling and refrigerating.  Sounds a bit different than your procedure, but your way seems to have worked out quite well and may even extend refrigerator life to allow for more flavor development.  Even with my warmer H2O, I've made it to nine days.  I wonder how far you could have gone!  :chef:

- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2009, 12:58:31 PM »
J,

I know you expressed interest in Glutenboy's dough recipe. Having attempted it, I see no reason why you can't practice the recipe using hand kneading. I used a combination of King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and vital wheat gluten (VWG) to get the same protein content as high-gluten flour but you should be able to use the KABF by itself, much as Glutenboy previously used the Harvest King (now Better for Bread) bread flour instead of high-gluten flour. One of the reasons I decided to try the Glutenboy recipe was to see if I could replicate his results in my particular oven, knowing full well that the same recipe will often turn out differently in the hands of different people. I concluded that achieving a stone temperature of around 600 degrees F is an important component of achieving good results with the recipe if the objective is to replicate Glutenboy's results. In fact, it occurred to me that one might be able to achieve a very good "elite" NY style pizza by using the same recipe as Glutenboy uses, or one similar to it using only flour, water, yeast and salt, combined with a suitably high stone temperature. The 302-gram dough ball weight I used (and Glutenboy apparently uses) translates to a thickness factor of 0.0692003 for a 14" pizza. That value falls within the NY "elite" range. A good test would be an 18" pizza based on that, or perhaps a slightly larger, thickness value.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2009, 01:28:06 PM »
Peter, you said a 302 gram ball for a 14", your formula below was for a single 14" pie. It was heavier but you said you trimmed it back to 302. So would you take that formula and multiply the ingredients by .857, as 12 divided by 14 is .857? (eg 192 grams of flour becomes 164 grams) Or would you make it as is and just weigh out 258 gram balls for a 12" as 302g x.857 is 258g ?

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):192.95 g 
Water (61.0526%):117.8 g
IDY (0.19817%):0.38 g
Salt (2.5%):4.82 g

   

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Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2009, 01:39:31 PM »
Oh, by the way, I was at a friends house and whipped up some dough by feel with a measuring cup and spoons because they wanted to make pizza in a few days and asked me to leave them a couple of dough balls.  With no mixer and only AP flour, I decided to try to develop the gluten as much as I could.  I only had a packet of rapid-rise yeast so I dissolved a spare (scant half tsp for 2 dough balls) in some warm water and let it sit for 10 min or so, then added the flour incrementally, stirring vigorously with a wooden spoon until I saw the web of gluten forming.  I added the salt before I was done adding flour.  I just kept adding flour, switching from stirring to kneading as the dough formed, until it felt like I thought it should.  Then I gave it a counter rise (the small amount of yeast kept things in check nicely), balled it, oiled it, bagged it in 2 ziplocks and refrigerated.  I don't know the final outcome, but the dough certainly felt right (smooth and extensible), so I'm anxious to follow up with my friend and hear about the final product.  I guess my point here is that I did it without a mixer and I think I was able to achieve a comparable result.  With the ingredients on hand, I don't know what the end result could have been, but it's an interesting experiment in just how forgiving the oil-free dough can be.

PS - I just noticed that PizzaStriver had posted again.  Sorry if I'm being oblivious to your guys' conversation.  I have little to contribute on the scaling/thickness factor front.  I'd just ask you, Peter!   ;D
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 01:44:06 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2009, 01:47:03 PM »
I'm glad you like my formulation.  I do wonder what effect the flour substitution had on the apparent hydration (as opposed to the actual percentage) because if you'll look at my Harvest King recipe, I used around 65 percent to get the same dough-handling properties that I get with around 60 for the All Trumps.  (I still don't get that by the way!)  I will tell you that the water I use is from the tap and warm.  I haven't measured the temp, but I'm saying above room temp though not 100 degrees like you would use to activate ADY.  Then I do get a pretty good counter rise before balling and refrigerating.  Sounds a bit different than your procedure, but your way seems to have worked out quite well and may even extend refrigerator life to allow for more flavor development.  Even with my warmer H2O, I've made it to nine days.  I wonder how far you could have gone!  :chef:

- GB

GB,

Sometimes I will try another member's dough recipe based on a beautiful photo made with a quality camera only to be disappointed by the results. But, that was not the case when I tried your recipe. The finished crust was very nicely balanced in terms of color, texture, chewiness, crispiness and softness and--because of the long fermentation time--flavor and aroma. I had a couple of reheated leftover slices for lunch today, along with a glass (well, maybe two) of the same wine (sauvignon blanc) I used to make the sauce for the clam/bacon pizza, and the crust maintained the same characteristics as the original. That is an important factor for me since I almost never eat an entire pizza at one sitting and I would prefer that the reheated slices be as good as the original slices. Part of the explanation is that the hydration of the dough is not excessive. As a result, the crust does not become soft, wet and floppy upon reheating, as I have found to be quite common when making pizzas from doughs with very high hydration (e.g., 70% or more).

The issue of hydration of different flours can be quite tricky. There are many factors (flour age, storage conditions, protein quality, humidity, etc.) that govern the hydration of flours but the method of preparing the dough can also be a factor. For example, I recently made a dough in which the instructions called for throwing everything into the mixer bowl of a stand mixer and mixing at a given speed. When I did that, the mixer tried to walk off of the counter. I knew that the hydration wasn't the reason because I had used the same hydration many times before. My practice is to add the flour gradually to the mixer bowl, which rarely taxes my stand mixer.

Using vital wheat gluten, semolina and other such ingredients along with a basic flour can also affect the hydration. Sometimes when using these ingredients, I find it necessary to adjust the hydration of the dough because those ingredients have somewhat different absorption characteristics than ordinary white flour. A simple way to deal with this is to just increase the hydration of the dough formulation up front by about 1%. That will usually be sufficient.

As I noted, I scaled your recipe down to a single dough ball. That small amount of dough will ferment differently than a large bulk amount of dough that is to be divided and scaled at some point into several dough balls. Water temperature will also affect the extent and rate of fermentation. If the water used is cold, for example, right out of the refrigerator, and the amount of yeast is also on the low side, it should be possible to get a window of usability that is quite long. The finished dough temperature may be lower than what is usually recommended but the dough will still work but not really be ready to use for a few or several days because of insufficient fermentation. I think I could have gotten at least a few more days out of the dough I made, maybe even a total of two weeks. It all comes down to using small amounts of yeast and achieving low dough temperatures during fermentation. Once someone masters these simple principles, you are in control, not the dough.

Peter

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2009, 02:11:27 PM »
Peter, you said a 302 gram ball for a 14", your formula below was for a single 14" pie. It was heavier but you said you trimmed it back to 302. So would you take that formula and multiply the ingredients by .857, as 12 divided by 14 is .857? (eg 192 grams of flour becomes 164 grams) Or would you make it as is and just weigh out 258 gram balls for a 12" as 302g x.857 is 258g ?

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):192.95 g  
Water (61.0526%):117.8 g
IDY (0.19817%):0.38 g
Salt (2.5%):4.82 g


J,

When I use one of the dough calculating tools, I almost always use a bowl residue compensation. I don't believe that Glutenboy uses such a compensation. But, since he indicated that a typical finished dough ball weight is around 300-302 grams, I simply trimmed the dough weight I got to 302 grams. If you are interested in making a 12" pizza rather than a 14" pizza, the easiest way to determine the quantities of ingredients necessary for the 12" size is to use the thickness factor (0.0692) in the expanded dough calculating tool along with a 12" size and the baker's percents as previously used (your approach cannot be used because the relationships aren't linear). For example, doing this with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html yields the following:

KABF/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
138.88 g  |  4.9 oz | 0.31 lbs
84.79 g  |  2.99 oz | 0.19 lbs
0.28 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.09 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
227.42 g | 8.02 oz | 0.5 lbs | TF = 0.07093
Note: For a single 12" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.0692; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

You will note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.5% in the above table. That is a value that I typically use for a hand kneaded dough because the dough losses using hand kneading tend to be higher than when using a machine. Also, if using VWG with the KABF, you will have to calculate the amount of VWG you will need to achieve the desired overall protein content (14%) of the flour/VWG blend. I use November's Mixed Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to do these kinds of calculations. Of course, you can use the KABF all by itself, as previously noted.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced Calculator link with the current link.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:34:44 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #90 on: April 17, 2009, 02:33:10 PM »
OK! Thanks for the reconfig. Peter. As this takes days to  rest I'll do a 3 ball batch now, so the above x3.
It's interesting this does need sugar to sit days and days like Lehmann's does, I assume it's the low yeast that makes that the case. .27 teaspoon for 3 balls is low indeed. I also whisk the batter and sift the flour, so all I can do is hope the two increase the gluten of KABF enough to make it good!

« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 02:36:00 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #91 on: April 17, 2009, 02:50:35 PM »
J,

All I had to do to get the quantities of ingredients for three dough balls was to change one entry in the expanded dough calculating tool:

Flour (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
Single Ball:
416.65 g  |  14.7 oz | 0.92 lbs
254.38 g  |  8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs
0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
10.42 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
682.27 g | 24.07 oz | 1.5 lbs | TF = 0.07093
227.42 g | 8.02 oz | 0.5 lbs

Peter

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2009, 02:54:43 PM »
It's interesting this does need sugar to sit days and days like Lehmann's does, I assume it's the low yeast that makes that the case.

J,

That is correct, along with using low dough temperatures. There is less yeast to consume the natural sugars extracted from the flour during fermentation, leaving more residual sugar for crust coloration at the time of baking. The Lehmann recipe is intended for commercial use where operators aren't interested in waiting a week or more to use the dough.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2009, 02:57:36 PM »
I mixed the salt and cold cold spring water, then sifted my 416 gs of flour. Instead of sifting yeast this time I sprinkled it in the flour to ensure no loss in the sifter. I Whisked 1/2 the flour/yeast combo heavily, completely smooth, then added 1/2 the remaining flour and whisked more. This was a tough 2-3 minute whisk as it's between batter and balling, but I want to get as much gluten up as I can, smooth and webbing at this point. My whisk isn't very happy, but I ignore its pleas for mercy. Now I'm letting it sit, call it an auto-rest or a 'catching of ones breath'. It's covered and resting but I'm not waiting 20 minutes, just enough to rest it and me. I'll let you know how hand kneading went soon...

And yes, I see your x3 matches mine, I got something right!
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline MWTC

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2009, 03:35:53 PM »
Glutenboy,

I guess you forgot to give my formulation a try.   :'(

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2009, 05:08:47 PM »
MWTC -

I have not forsaken you.  The fact is that except for that impromptu dough I made at my friends house, I have not cooked a pizza since the last pics I posted.  I will do it.  I swear by Grepthar's Hammer.  ???

- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #96 on: April 17, 2009, 05:54:15 PM »
Peter, and GB, this dough hand kneads beautifully. I recommended it for all hand kneaders. I didn't leave any on the side for additional use, as I forgot to, I dumped it all in and got lucky. The spoon stage was short and sticky, so right to the board for the work. Sticky as it was all I had to do was flour my hands and the board once. It never needed more flour, stayed very nice and pulled, folded and pressed great. After 10 mins it still had that slight lumpy thing happening though, so I did the magic trick. I covered it, and 5 minutes later smooth as silk. I have no idea why this happens, but leave a lumpy dough alone for 5 minutes and it's like a baby's you know what. Then 2-3 more minutes of kneading and done.

I started with cold water as opposed to room temp as I was hand kneading, and more importantly I whisked the water/salt and batter a lot. Seems this would warm it up, and it did. I ask your thoughts on the rise by site, please see b4 and after pics below, but it was actually more that I expected based on the low yeast. After the 2 hr rise it handled like a dream, smooth and easy to work. I ended up with three 215 gram balls... now well oiled, contained and sleeping in the fridge.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 06:19:19 PM by NY pizzastriver »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #97 on: April 17, 2009, 06:43:59 PM »
After 10 mins it still had that slight lumpy thing happening though, so I did the magic trick. I covered it, and 5 minutes later smooth as silk. I have no idea why this happens, but leave a lumpy dough alone for 5 minutes and it's like a baby's you know what.


J,

During autolyse and similar rest periods, there are proteolytic enzymes in the dough that attack the gluten structure and softens it. You can read more about the phenomenon, and others as well, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2009, 07:05:04 PM »
Wow
"autolyse" means self-destruction," and that's actually good. Great read, I learned a lot there.

Do you think I was right leaving water cold as I was hand kneading, thus warming myself? My fear was too warm would make the yeast react fast and not allow the 5-8 day rest.
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Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2009, 07:14:51 PM »
If you used the same percentage of yeast I do, then I think your warming fears are unfounded.  I use warm water and get a good counter rise before refrigerating, and I am still good at 8 days.  :chef:
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


 

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