Author Topic: Tonight's Pie  (Read 81108 times)

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #175 on: February 19, 2010, 11:16:58 AM »
A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it. 


Right you are, I find your formula at about 5 mins total is best. I tried it at 10 recently, and like Paulie said to Jiimmy The Cheese of his Mozzarella in The Pope Of Greenwich Village "tough like shoe leather". Yeah, so it's not meant for a 10 minute mix.

I just wanted to take this time to thank you for this formula. As I just stated in another thread, but wanted to elaborate on here, it's hands down the winner for best taste/texture/ versatility in usage for a 550 home oven. What I mean by the last part is it's usable from 3-9 days, so a big batch means pizza basically whenever you want it. If you ever tried Lehmann, which I'm sure you have, yours is better after 3 days without fail.

As no one has come up with anything better in my months here for home oven use (for example a 12 day dough I attempted was just unusable) I proudly award you this fine trophy! Cherish it, display it proudly, and thanks again for your amazing work of art.

I may pop back from time to time to say hi, but 'til then peace to you all!  ;D
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1


Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2010, 02:04:56 PM »
Wow.  That's quite a compliment.  Having been a member here for quite a few years now, and having had the privilege to communicate with and learn from the talent that has come, gone, and stayed over those years, and having seen their work, it's hard to feel like I deserve it.  Having said that, I am not above accepting unwarranted accolades and so I have a speech prepared...  ;D  Seriously, NYPizzastriver, thanks.  It means a lot to me that I was able to give something here.  This forum is an amazing place.  I've been able to communicate directly with the likes of Pete Taylor, Scott R, Jeff Varasano (all of whom I think will become legendary alongside Bianco, DeMarco and Tony G.) and even Evelyn Slomon who belongs on the aforementioned list.  There are many others as well; those few just sprang to mind.  Everything I do when I make pizza has been informed by their guidance and wisdom.  Peter's tireless research and cataloguing of the information brought here by everyone has created what must be the greatest single body of pizzamaking history, science and knowledge in the world.  I don't think that's hyperbole, just a statement of fact.  I'm grateful and pround to be a member of this community.  And finally, NYPizzastriver, you make it sound as though you're signing off.  What's up with that?  The forum thrives on people with your skills, passion and love of pizza - so GET BACK HERE!

- GB  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 02:25:04 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #177 on: March 15, 2010, 12:27:44 AM »
After reading this entire thread and drooling at the pics, I had to give this recipe a try.  I used the recipe posted by GB with a few changes.  I added 30gm of my own starter (poolish/preferment), and 1/2 tsp oil per 12" pie.   

The first pie was made Friday night and cold fermented for 2 days and cooked Sunday night.  I was shooting for 3days or more but couldn't wait.  Pie #1 was kneaded in my new cuisinart Food Processor with cold water no ice.

Pie #2-#4 was made today and proofed at room temps (72F) for 5 hours and then baked the same day.  Since I was using it today, I upped the ADY to 1/2 tsp per pie, added 30gm starter, and 1/2 tsp of oil.  Final dough weight was around 320gm per pie.   Pies where between 12-13" post bake.  Pies 2 & 3 were kneaded in the Cuisinart food processor with 1/2 ice water 1/2 crushed ice.  Dough was very cold  and had to be rested for about 20min after kneading (to allow small ice chunks to melt) before all of the flour could be kneaded back in.

Pie #4 was made with ice cold water, but no ice when into the dough.  Autolysed for 20 min, and then salt and oil was added and kneaded for about 80 revolutions.

All pies where finished with a little hand kneading, balled, and then went into a buttered round container.
I want to make a distincting here about using a food processor to knead dough and using ice cold water versus ice water with crush ice in it.   Both dough balls sat out on the counter for 5 hours before baking, but the one that didn't have the ice chips in it and not as cold rose about 50%  bigger prebake.  Felt a lot airier prebake and was more distensible when stretching.  I could not toss this dough ball and just hand stretched on the counter. 
  Doughballs with ice chips in it did not rise as much during the proof, did not feel as airy when handling, and had enough strength in it to allow for tossing.   Both baked very similarly and had the same oven spring and taste.   

Pies were baked in the home oven on  pizza stone about 3.5" below the top broiler.   Initial stone temp was 750, and oven temp was lowered to 450-475 once pies were loaded.  Pies were baked for about 6 mins and the broiled for 30 seconds or less to char the top crust and cheese. 

Results were excellent.  Guests like pie #1 (cold fermented for 2 days) best, but all were great!  I didn't get to tasted pie #1, but ate slices out of pies #2-#4.  Crust was crispy on outside and slightly chewy inside.  Airy but not too airy.  Bottom had a nice bend too it but not too floppy.  Pizza was foldable but I dont slice it big enough to require that.  Did not get the blisters, but got some micro blisters that you had to really look for to see.

Here are the pies.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #178 on: March 15, 2010, 12:29:40 AM »
Pie #4



Kudos to you GB for an awesome recipe and for sharing it as well!  My guests and I thank you!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #179 on: March 15, 2010, 10:44:43 AM »
Tran,

Nice job all around. It looks like you conducted about ten different experiments at the same time  :-D. If you were to settle on a single set of parameters for the next attempt, what do you think they would be?

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #180 on: March 15, 2010, 12:07:12 PM »
Tran,

Nice job all around. It looks like you conducted about ten different experiments at the same time  :-D. If you were to settle on a single set of parameters for the next attempt, what do you think they would be?

Peter

Thanks Peter.  I have no patience but to conduct mutliple experiments at the same time.  It makes for a nerving wait for the results as I never know which experiment will be successfull or disasterous.  I guess all the stars were line up last night.  :D

So here are my new parameters.   First I just got a Cuisinart Food Processor that I used to knead the dough with.  I have been doing it by hand and it does a much better job than I can by hand.  But I will continue to use both methods and test them against one another as my hand kneading techniques are improving.

I will do a write up on using the (cuisinart Food processor) to make pizza later once I get that dialed in. 

#2) first time adding about 1/2 tsp of oil per pie for me and I like the results.  If it makes the crust a bit more tender and easier to work with I think it's a good idea.  JV's and other recipes that call for no sugar and oil are really meant to be cooked at HIGH temps.  At those temps, the dough remains moist and not dry due to the short cooking times.  For the home cook with a 550 degree oven at best,  we have to cook pies at 6mins + compared to a 2 min bake.  That's a lot of time for the crust to dry out, so oil is good for the home baker IMO.

#3)  I got great results with GB's recipe so I'll have to go back and compare it with JV's recipe that I have been using to see if it they are that different from one another.   In the end it's just all flour, water, yeast, salt, (and oil) right?  I'm keeping in mind that I've read a number of posts stating that the italian masters really only measure water and not the other ingredients and that if the technique used is correct, you can get a great pie without measuring. Keeping this in mind, I'm think my results were due more to better kneading (with the cuisinart) than a better recipe.
I'll have to do a side by side test with a GB pie vs a JV pie with the cuisinart to really know.

#4) 2 T starter per pie was not too much for a same day pie as I just have to make the changes to the percentages accordingly.  A pinch of ADY yeast for a 3-9 day ferment and a 1/3 tsp of ADY for same day pies works well along with my starter.

#5) I will substitute reballing for stretching and folding 3 hours prior to baking if the dough seems too soft or pliable.  In a side  by side comparison, doughballs made with ice chips in the the dough turned out a much colder product than simply using ice water.  Sorry Peter, I forgot to measure the dough temp after kneading.  The 2 doughs were rested for 5 hours prior to baking and both had different amounts of rise, aeration of the dough, pliability, workability when it came to stretching and skinning.   They were so different in that the one that originally had ice chips in it, I was able to toss in the air and the other I wasn't able to, eventhough both had come to room temperature.  After baking though, both were indistiguisable in oven spring.  The dough that was colder initially was just easier to work with b/c it wasn't so slack.

so what I plan on using as a standard for now is this..
-Mix all cold ice water (no ice chips), 90-100% flour, yeast.  Allow to autolyse for 20mins in the fridge to keep the dough cold. 
-Then add oil and salt and knead for about 75 revolutions in the food processor with the dough blade.
-Turn out on counter to finish hand kneading.  Very little bench flour will be used here.
-Will place into an oiled container and either rest for 20min on the counter or go into cold ferment.
  I will test at a later date if the riposo is necessary or even makes a difference.
-cold rest for 3-6 days? in a ventilated container.  I'll poke small holes in the top of my glad containers.
-Allow to proof to room temps for 3-6 hours. 
-Will reball if necessary.   
-Bake, take pics, eat, post pics, and get ready for more experiments. 

 Thanks for all your feedback Peter.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #181 on: March 19, 2010, 05:00:54 PM »
MWTC -

I have not forsaken you.  The fact is that except for that impromptu dough I made at my friends house, I have not cooked a pizza since the last pics I posted.  I will do it.  I swear by Grepthar's Hammer.  ???

- GB

GB,
Looking thru this thread I don't see where you've tried out MWTC's recipe yet. Been looking forward to your results?? Grepther and his hammer would be frowning :-D Anyway I put one of yours in the fridge last nite for use on Sunday nite (3.5-4 days in fridge) Won't be as nice as an 8-9 dayer but didn't know enough ahead of time to start it earlier. Try to post some pics.
Jon
Jon
“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #182 on: March 19, 2010, 05:30:35 PM »
Hey are you guys getting blisters with cold ferment of 3-5 days?  or only if they've been sleeping 8-9 days?  Just curious as I have only made a few of these myself.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:11:00 PM by Tranman »

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #183 on: March 19, 2010, 05:41:04 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8232.msg70969.html#msg70969

This one was after 5 days give or take so I'll see come Sunday on this latest one which will be about 3 1/2. It'll still be better than take out!!
Jon
“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain


Offline MikeH

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #184 on: April 03, 2010, 03:24:12 PM »
I'm giving this recipe a shot at the moment.. start of 2nd day in fridge I see that 4/6 dough balls have almost doubled in size but 2 of them have hardly risen at all.. those 2 are the same in every way except I only oiled the containers and didn't rub any on the balls.   Seems kinda odd, I guess we'll see how they turn out.


Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #185 on: April 07, 2010, 08:36:04 PM »
Hey, Jackitup!  Yeah, Grepthar's gonna be p**sed at me!  >:D
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline edgeco1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #186 on: May 04, 2010, 06:03:48 PM »
Glutenboy or Peter,
From your recipe above:

3 cups + 1 tsp flour
3/4 cup + 3T + 2 tsp H20

Is this per pie?

I make a Lehman with:
2 3/8 flour;
3/4 H20

for a 15 inch pie!

Sorry for the newbie question.

edge.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #187 on: May 04, 2010, 06:21:41 PM »
Edge -

Volume measurements will get you iffy results at best, and your water/flour (hydration) ratio is going to vary a bit depending on what kind of flour you're using.  I know that's a half a*sed answer, but in my experience it's the honest truth.  When I don't have my scale handy or I'm using a new flour, I wind up tweaking my measurements by feel.  If I didn't, I'd never get what I want.  I hope (and have a good, strong feeling) that Peter will provide you with more useful information than I just did.   ;D

- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #188 on: May 04, 2010, 06:46:10 PM »
From your recipe above:

3 cups + 1 tsp flour
3/4 cup + 3T + 2 tsp H20

Is this per pie?

edge,

I believe you are referring to the dough recipe I posted at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg89797.html#msg89797. If so, that recipe is for two dough balls, each weighing about 309 grams, possibly a bit less.

Since I have a digital scale, I use that over using volume measurements. No matter how carefully one uses volume measurements, even those for flour from the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, and assuming that one uses the proper flour Measurement Method, results can vary and require you to make adjustments. You will have to give the recipe a try to see if you can come close to the desired results using the volume measurements.

Peter

Offline edgeco1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #189 on: May 04, 2010, 07:00:25 PM »
Thanks :)

What size pie would that make ?

edge.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #190 on: May 04, 2010, 07:09:41 PM »
edge,

According to Glutenboy's post at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66680.html#msg66680, about 14".

Peter

Offline edgeco1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #191 on: May 04, 2010, 07:18:29 PM »
A fountain of knowledge :)

Thanks!!!!


Offline edgeco1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #192 on: May 04, 2010, 09:43:43 PM »
One more question  ;D

I made the batch and it made more than I planned on.
I made two balls and oiled them and put them in the fridge.

Now I have second thoughts and would like to make it into three pies!

1) Should I re-knead it and divide into 3;

2) should I break off 1/3 from each ball to make 3;

3) just go with it and make a larger, not round pie?

thanks.  edge.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #193 on: May 04, 2010, 10:24:16 PM »
One more question  ;D

I made the batch and it made more than I planned on.
I made two balls and oiled them and put them in the fridge.

Now I have second thoughts and would like to make it into three pies!

1) Should I re-knead it and divide into 3;

2) should I break off 1/3 from each ball to make 3;

3) just go with it and make a larger, not round pie?

thanks.  edge.


edge,

Once you have formed the dough balls and placed them in the refrigerator, it can be difficult to recombine them into a single dough ball and redivide into three balls, especially if you brushed or coated the original dough balls with oil.

Of the options you presented, I think I would go with option 2) and hope that the third dough ball comes out OK.

You should keep in mind that you will have to make smaller pizzas (diameter) if you go to three dough balls if you want to retain the same crust thickness characteristics of the Glutenboy crusts. If you try to make 14" pizzas with the three dough balls, the crusts may turn out too thin. By my calculation, you should end up with three dough balls weighing 201.33 grams each (7.10 ounces). Based on the thickness factor used by Glutenboy's dough formulation, you will not want to make your pizzas any larger than 11.43194" if you want to retain the same crust characteristics of his dough formulation.

Peter


Offline edgeco1

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #194 on: May 05, 2010, 06:43:06 AM »
Thanks, because I measured and did not weigh the balls are certainly heavier! Judging by feel from previous pies I would guess that they are at least enough for 18 inch pies.

Thanks again.
edge.

PS I did have to add 1/2 cup of H20 to make the dough workable!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 06:45:50 AM by edgeco1 »

Offline WestCountry

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #195 on: July 03, 2010, 01:38:52 PM »
Lately I have been running into too many overblown doughs doing my long room temperature fermentations, so I tried this recipe out since it was fridge based. I have been getting great results with it, and its turning into my new regular pizza recipe. So thanks to all the contributors here. Also getting great blistering which is a nice side-effect I always wanted to obtain.

The below photos are based on glutenboy's recipe with KASL and SAF red yeast (at 5 days in the fridge).

Chris      :pizza:

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #196 on: July 03, 2010, 02:02:31 PM »
Nice work.  Beautiful looking rim.  lovely looking blisters as well.  How was the crust/crumb texture? 

Offline WestCountry

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #197 on: July 03, 2010, 02:15:04 PM »
Thanks Jackie Tran!
The crust/crumb was awesome. Cooked in my kitchen oven 550 degrees F. Good browning and crispy on the outside and tender and slightly chewy inside... Not dry, unless I overcook it - which I did once by mistake. Good hole structure too, I should have shown that.

For the past month been doing this recipe and its my now become my favorite. I like the fact too that I can just grab one or two dough balls out of the fridge before I need them, then leave it on the counter for 2-hours  - then they are ready to stretch.

I have to try one of these sometime in my 2Stone oven to see what it looks like at 725 degrees.

Chris

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #198 on: July 03, 2010, 02:19:01 PM »
Chris, you'll get a puffier and more aerated rim and some different type patterns on the rim.  More and darker spots.

I also forgot to ask you what you meant by an "overblown" dough.   

JT

Offline WestCountry

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Re: Tonight's Pie
« Reply #199 on: July 03, 2010, 02:37:41 PM »
Thanks Jackie Tran for the feedback,

When I say "overblown", I use it to describe this situation I have run into:
For past year I have been doing really well with long room-temp fermentations (like 12-24 hours) with a really small amount of Rapid Rise yeast. But starting this Spring, I started getting into trouble. Dough was too elastic and rising too much, and when I go to stretch it I basically would not even need to...because it was so loose (resulting in spots too thin and tearing). I think it was a factor of the higher and changing temps here in Colorado (like in the 80 degree F range) and me not appropriately controlling the temp/yeast combination. So I guess when I say "overblown"...I mean that as over-fermented.

Its funny how things change, cause I was never a big fan of using the fridge and now I am.

btw, all your pies and experiments looking awesome in all the threads...keep it up!
Chris