Tonight's Pie

[hotsawce]

Glutenboy, if you don't mind me asking, at what temperature/time/place in the oven did you cook these pies. They look wonderful.

Think it's achievable with an electric oven? Or with AP flour instead of bread?

[Glutenboy]

Hotsawce -

I have a gas oven with the broiler underneath so I can just crank it up to broil and basically the oven just stays on and keeps heating.  The tiles go on the rack in the lowest position and in my oven, this setup works beautifully.  Every oven is different, so as far as rack position, you'll have to find the sweet spot.  If you have an older electric oven controlled completely by dials, you're in luck.  Set the cooking dial to BAKE and the temperature dial to BROIL.  I have used this to great effect at friends houses and gotten some beautiful char.  If you have a newer digital electric oven, you'll have a tougher time tricking it into giving you that dangerous temperature we need.  I hear they have a calibration feature which will allow you to coax out a few extra degrees, but I've never tried.  There are also many pyromaniacs on the board who have filed the lock off of their oven door so that they can cook on the CLEAN cycle.  Never tried that either, but I'm certainly not above doing it if the pizza in my head told me to.  I've never gotten a temperature reading.  I bought one of those dial oven thermometers once, but the numbers burned off so I assume it was pretty hot.  Two words of advice.  First, preheat the stone or tiles for at least an hour.  Second, don't assume the bottom rack is the sweet spot.  I've used home electric ovens where the lowest rack burned the bottom of the pizza black by the time the top cooked.  In that oven, second position from lowest was ideal.  Trial and error is what it's all about.  Now go burn your house down.   

- GB

ps - I'd go with bread flour myself, because higher protein content seems to improve coloration, but what the hell.  Make a batch with each and compare.  My greatest discoveries have usually been accidents.

[hotsawce]

Unfortunately, my oven died right as I was trying the "under the broiler" method. Didn't even get the pizza onto the stone 

On the bright side, I'll be getting a new oven very shortly, and it'll likely be electric, so I'll be messing with the ideal spot to cook the pie. I just hope they come out half as good looking as the first pie in the thread!

   After I make a few NY style pizzas, I'll probably want to figure out the "under the broiler" method again.

Thanks for the information...can't wait to try it all!

[hotsawce]

One more question; do you ever punch down the dough or do anything once you've put it in a container, sealed it, and stuck it in the fridge?

[NY pizzastriver]

...do you ever punch down the dough or do anything once you've put it in a container, sealed it, and stuck it in the fridge?

I'll field this one GB, nope. This doesn't rise much, even with the 2 hr room temp rest before balling. Very low yeast and all. You just do the bulk rise in oiled covered bowl, divide, a couple hand kneads to each. Then ball, oil everything, and put to sleep.

[Glutenboy]

Thanks, NYPS.   

[hotsawce]

Okay, guys. I think I'm going to make the dough tomorrow so it'll be ready by the time my oven is fixed.

I don't have a kitchen scale or measuring spoons, so I'm going to be ball-parking this.

I'm looking to make 2 dough balls, so for the sake of ease I think I'll be using

3 cups flour (about 360 grams)
1 cup water (236 grams)
Salt: ?
IDY: .18 to .19%

I "think" that puts me between 61 to 65% hydration, and I think I'll be getting about 300 gram dough balls...maybe a little more so I might take off a little chunk of dough and then split the remainder in half.

1. First and foremost, impressions of this? Think it'll be okay?

2. Secondly, how should I measure out the proper amount of yeast, and can anyone give me an estimated yeast amount for that percentage (grams, ounces, teaspoons)? I imagine this will be the hardest part to get right. Also, a recommended amount of salt would be helpful.

3. Finally, how do you all store your yeast, especially after a package is open. I bought a thing of Redstar quick rise IDY and I'm pretty sure the pouches are about 7 grams. I had 2 unopen ones sitting on the counter for about a day, but then I put them in the fridge. Is this okay? Also, how should I store after I open a package?

  - Also, I should be bulk fermenting the dough, correct? How would you mix this if you're hand kneading/mixing? Should I do frequent autolyse and resting periods? Any pictures of what the dough should like around the 8 day mark would be great, too.

Any help would be appreciated...I'm looking to get those awesome blisters and flavor!

PS. What mozz did you use on those pies, gluten boy?

[Glutenboy]

Hotsawce -

3 cups of flour sounds a bit high for starters to me if you're at 1 cup water.  I'd start with 2.5 cups and add more if needed.  The dough shouldn't be too too manageable.  A bit sticky is good.  Second, with that much flour, if you're using IDY, I'd stay around 1/4 tsp.  ADY maybe 1/3 to half tsp.  The cheese is Belgioso cryopack fresh Mozz. log from Costco.  Also a bit of grated reggiano and pecorino romano.  Keep me posted, my friend.

- GB

[hotsawce]

You sure about the 2.5 cups? I just did the math, and using AP flour at about 120 grams a cup puts the hydration at 79% to 1 cup of water (about 236 grams).

As for the IDY, that's about .5 to .6 grams, right?

[Glutenboy]

Just speaking from personal experience.  Volume measurements are iffy at best, and even with a scale you can't be a slave to the numbers if the dough doesn't feel right.  Experience tells me there's no way that 2.5 cups of flour to 1 cup water has given me a 79%-hydration dough, but it could be due to the way I measure flour in a cup.  You can always add more flour if what you get is too wet.  If you start off with more and it's too dry, you will then need to add more water which will simply mean more dough.  I don't know how much pizza you've made, but the first few are going to be a learning experience no matter how much study prep you do.  Percentages vary with ingredients (like type of flour etc.), and there's no substitute for knowing what you want when you see and feel it.  I have a scale as well as calibrated cups and spoons, and still I wind up tweaking the hydration most of the time to get what I want.  Don't get me wrong; accurate measurements are vital.  You just can't always trust the numbers to the point of ignoring what's going on in the mixing bowl.  The two greatest sources of knowledge for me have been 1) This forum, and 2) My mistakes.  Don't worry too much.  It's always edible.  As far as the yeast goes, there's a volume/weight conversion table here: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm.  Flour's cheap.  If you have a particular doubt, resolve it with a side-by-side test.  Anyway, enough out of me.  You'll do great!   

[Pete-zza]

hotsawce,

I don't want to rain on your parade but I don't think you should be using 65% hydration. If you want to make two roughly 300 gram dough balls, I would use Glutenboy's baker's percents in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The option you would use is the Dough Weight option. I would also buy or borrow a set of standard measuring spoons. Trying to guess at quantities of yeast and salt with ordinary teaspoons is problematic at best. If you guess wrong, your experiment can end up as a failure or your dough may not make it out to eight days. You want to avoid or minimize as much as possible the things that can go wrong.

Can you tell us what kind and brand of flour you are using? If it is in the pull-down menu at the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/, you should be able to convert the weight quantity for the flour from the expanded dough calculating tool into a volume measurement based on how you measure out flour (e.g., "Textbook" method, "Medium", etc.). If you need help with either tool, let me know.

With respect to yeast storage, I store all of my yeasts in the freezer, whether the packet is opened or not. If you know that you are going to use the yeast in a short period of time, for example, within a few days, it can be stored in the refrigerator compartment of your refrigerator.

On the matter of hand kneading, you might want to follow Glutenboy's regimen. However, in your case, you should use whatever you have on hand as a substitute for a stand mixer, such as a bowl, a sturdy mixing spoon, a whisk, spatula, a bench knife, etc. Glutenboy describes his mixing regimen at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66669.html#msg66669.

Peter

[hotsawce]

I am using King Aruthur AP Unbleached.

Using that calculator and Glutenboy's percents, this is what I came up with.

Flour (100%):    366.59 g  |  12.93 oz | 0.81 lbs
Water (61%):    223.62 g  |  7.89 oz | 0.49 lbs
IDY (.17%):    0.62 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.21 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):    9.16 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.91 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
Total (163.67%):   600 g | 21.16 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs

For measurement, I used the "textbook method," where you stir the flour to loosen it and then lift it into the measuring cup by the spoonful and level it off.

According to the calculator, flour came out to 2 and 3/4 cups with 2 tbsp. and 3 tsp.
Water came out to 3/4 cups with 3 tbsp and .37 tsp.
Salt came out to 1.91 tsp

Is all good?

For the yeast, should I just dump it in a ziploc bag and keep it in the freezer like that? Also, does it need to come to room temperature before I use it?

[Pete-zza]

hotsawce,

You did well . I am proud of you. The only thing I would change is to use a bowl residue compensation of 3% to compensate for the fact that you will be using hand kneading and tools to which some of the dough is bound to stick. Using 3% bowl residue compensation gives us the following:

Flour (100%): Water (61%): IDY (0.17%): Salt (2.5%): Total (163.67%): Single Ball:

377.59 g  |  13.32 oz | 0.83 lbs 230.33 g  |  8.12 oz | 0.51 lbs 0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.21 tsp | 0.07 tbsp 9.44 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp 618 g | 21.8 oz | 1.36 lbs | TF = N/A 309 g | 10.9 oz | 0.68 lbs

Note: Bowl residue compensation = 3%

Using the Textbook method of flour measurement, the weight of flour in the above dough formulation, 377.59 grams, translates to 3 cups + a bit less than one teaspoon. The weight of water in the above formulation, 230.33 grams, translates to 3/4 cup + 3 T. + a bit less than 2 t. The flour and water volume measurement values may not be 100% accurate and a guarantee of success, because volume measurements are not precise even under the best of circumstances, but I think you will be closer than just guessing.

You will also get somewhat different results using the King Arthur all-purpose flour than using the high-gluten and bread flours that Glutenboy has used. That might require some adjustment in future iterations. For example, to track Glutenboy's dough formulation more closely, you might lower the hydration to about 59%. You might also switch to a bread flour in a future iteration, or to a high-gluten flour if you can find a source of that flour. The bread flour and high-gluten flour will have a longer fermentation tolerance. With the all-purpose flour, you may not make it out to eight days, even with the small amount of yeast. So you will want to monitor the development of your dough during its fermentation.

I forgot to mention before but I would do the division after the bulk fermentation of a few hours, just as Glutenboy describes in Reply 5 that I previously referenced. Of course, if he altered his methodology maybe he can update you on that.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

For the yeast, should I just dump it in a ziploc bag and keep it in the freezer like that? Also, does it need to come to room temperature before I use it?

hotsawce,

When I use packets of unused yeast, I just freeze them unopened. If I open a packet and don't use all of the yeast, I just tightly fold the top of the packet over and hold the packet closed with a rubber band wrapped around the packet. Or I just tape the packets shut. I use packets of both IDY and ADY so keeping the yeast in their packets avoids confusion and possible mistakes. When I use a large one-pound bag of yeast, I fold the bag shut and keep it in a sealed plastic container in my freezer.

Opinions differ on whether one should let the yeast warm up before using. I don't think that it makes a difference from what I can tell. I usually just take the yeast out of the freezer as I am getting ready to make the dough and measure out the amount of yeast I am planning to use. It will warm up quickly and be ready when you are.

Peter

[Puzzolento]

When crust looks that good, you almost don't care how it tastes.

[NY pizzastriver]

A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it. 

Right you are, I find your formula at about 5 mins total is best. I tried it at 10 recently, and like Paulie said to Jiimmy The Cheese of his Mozzarella in The Pope Of Greenwich Village "tough like shoe leather". Yeah, so it's not meant for a 10 minute mix.

I just wanted to take this time to thank you for this formula. As I just stated in another thread, but wanted to elaborate on here, it's hands down the winner for best taste/texture/ versatility in usage for a 550 home oven. What I mean by the last part is it's usable from 3-9 days, so a big batch means pizza basically whenever you want it. If you ever tried Lehmann, which I'm sure you have, yours is better after 3 days without fail.

As no one has come up with anything better in my months here for home oven use (for example a 12 day dough I attempted was just unusable) I proudly award you this fine trophy! Cherish it, display it proudly, and thanks again for your amazing work of art.

I may pop back from time to time to say hi, but 'til then peace to you all! 

[Glutenboy]

Wow.  That's quite a compliment.  Having been a member here for quite a few years now, and having had the privilege to communicate with and learn from the talent that has come, gone, and stayed over those years, and having seen their work, it's hard to feel like I deserve it.  Having said that, I am not above accepting unwarranted accolades and so I have a speech prepared...    Seriously, NYPizzastriver, thanks.  It means a lot to me that I was able to give something here.  This forum is an amazing place.  I've been able to communicate directly with the likes of Pete Taylor, Scott R, Jeff Varasano (all of whom I think will become legendary alongside Bianco, DeMarco and Tony G.) and even Evelyn Slomon who belongs on the aforementioned list.  There are many others as well; those few just sprang to mind.  Everything I do when I make pizza has been informed by their guidance and wisdom.  Peter's tireless research and cataloguing of the information brought here by everyone has created what must be the greatest single body of pizzamaking history, science and knowledge in the world.  I don't think that's hyperbole, just a statement of fact.  I'm grateful and pround to be a member of this community.  And finally, NYPizzastriver, you make it sound as though you're signing off.  What's up with that?  The forum thrives on people with your skills, passion and love of pizza - so GET BACK HERE!

- GB 

[Jackie Tran]

After reading this entire thread and drooling at the pics, I had to give this recipe a try.  I used the recipe posted by GB with a few changes.  I added 30gm of my own starter (poolish/preferment), and 1/2 tsp oil per 12" pie.   

The first pie was made Friday night and cold fermented for 2 days and cooked Sunday night.  I was shooting for 3days or more but couldn't wait.  Pie #1 was kneaded in my new cuisinart Food Processor with cold water no ice.

Pie #2-#4 was made today and proofed at room temps (72F) for 5 hours and then baked the same day.  Since I was using it today, I upped the ADY to 1/2 tsp per pie, added 30gm starter, and 1/2 tsp of oil.  Final dough weight was around 320gm per pie.   Pies where between 12-13" post bake.  Pies 2 & 3 were kneaded in the Cuisinart food processor with 1/2 ice water 1/2 crushed ice.  Dough was very cold  and had to be rested for about 20min after kneading (to allow small ice chunks to melt) before all of the flour could be kneaded back in.

Pie #4 was made with ice cold water, but no ice when into the dough.  Autolysed for 20 min, and then salt and oil was added and kneaded for about 80 revolutions.

All pies where finished with a little hand kneading, balled, and then went into a buttered round container.
I want to make a distincting here about using a food processor to knead dough and using ice cold water versus ice water with crush ice in it.   Both dough balls sat out on the counter for 5 hours before baking, but the one that didn't have the ice chips in it and not as cold rose about 50%  bigger prebake.  Felt a lot airier prebake and was more distensible when stretching.  I could not toss this dough ball and just hand stretched on the counter. 
  Doughballs with ice chips in it did not rise as much during the proof, did not feel as airy when handling, and had enough strength in it to allow for tossing.   Both baked very similarly and had the same oven spring and taste.   

Pies were baked in the home oven on  pizza stone about 3.5" below the top broiler.   Initial stone temp was 750, and oven temp was lowered to 450-475 once pies were loaded.  Pies were baked for about 6 mins and the broiled for 30 seconds or less to char the top crust and cheese. 

Results were excellent.  Guests like pie #1 (cold fermented for 2 days) best, but all were great!  I didn't get to tasted pie #1, but ate slices out of pies #2-#4.  Crust was crispy on outside and slightly chewy inside.  Airy but not too airy.  Bottom had a nice bend too it but not too floppy.  Pizza was foldable but I dont slice it big enough to require that.  Did not get the blisters, but got some micro blisters that you had to really look for to see.

Here are the pies.

[Jackie Tran]

Pie #4



Kudos to you GB for an awesome recipe and for sharing it as well!  My guests and I thank you!

[Pete-zza]

Tran,

Nice job all around. It looks like you conducted about ten different experiments at the same time  . If you were to settle on a single set of parameters for the next attempt, what do you think they would be?

Peter