Author Topic: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?  (Read 8530 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2008, 01:43:49 PM »
koloa101,

"Fermentation" refers to the biochemical activity that takes place in the dough over the period before you decide to make pizzas with it. The fermentation can take place at room temperature, in a refrigerator or cooler, or a combination of both. In your case, you are using cold fermentation.

There is no need to increase the finished dough temperature to 80-85 degrees F. That is the range that is typically recommended for professionals with commercial coolers. Since a home refrigerator is not as efficient as a commercial cooler, the recommended range for home refrigerator purposes is 75-80 degrees F. Usually you can be off a few degrees either side and not have any problems with the dough.

As far as weighing small quantities of ingredients is concerned, you don't have to use a scale to weigh them. If you are using one of the dough calculating tools, the conversions of weights to volumes are reliable. So, for those, you should just use the volume data produced by the tools. You only need the scale to weigh flour and water and any other ingredients that are used in fairly large quantities.

Pizza sauces are almost exclusively personal in nature. However, I think that you will find that most members do not simmer the sauces. Most professionals who make the NY style use the sauces uncooked.

Peter


Offline JConk007

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2008, 02:44:04 PM »
Koloa,
looks like you got it!
Good luck forming your creations. Using the PJs Sauce?
Now if you can share with me how you do the picasa album link, I would appreciate that. Not here though send a Personal message or post on "how to use this forum"  section link.
thanks
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2008, 08:37:54 PM »
Pictures!

Arts recipe
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/C3GcrFqxNBH_KsQcVpsRDQ?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/835cWHC8GgD_GbEqmONKLw?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/h7ysvuyOIAEcrg_mfY4x_w?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6FJBHg1COR3RM1yTkIiwAg?feat=directlink

Peters recipe
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/BVIIOp3UmPCPyGU6XEXZLg?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QfWRdhiDUAKvUy3xz79SKw?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/84Th4NBYon6v79lwEmOwYA?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Xodl5oqN3_UVxiXkZR5oRg?feat=directlink

here are a little details:
the dough was in the fridge for 4 days when i took them out and placed them on a counter for ~2 hours before baking.
the dough was still pretty cold when i placed it into the oven.
between both peters and arts recipe, i couldn't really taste a difference.
i was surprised how elastic the dough became after the 4 days of fermenting. right after i mixed the dough and divided them into the 8" balls, the dough was pretty sticky.
oven temp was at 550 and the 8" pies baked at 5-6 minutes each on a pizza stone.
cheese was 1/2 skim and 1/2 whole. the skim was sams club brand and the whole was the sergento artisan mozzarella.
sauce was the organic tomato sauce i posted earlier. it didnt have much flavor.
i used cornmeal to slide the pie off the peel, next i will just use flour.
after i topped with cheese, i drizzled a little olive oil, and a pinch of kosher salt.
my wife and i ate all the pies immediately they came out the oven.

Thank you guys for the awesome help!, i felt my first pizza attempt was a huge success. i have never made a pie before, and i can tell ya, this dough rivals my favorite pizza shops here in south jersey. crisp, airy, and chewy crust. all i need is a better tasting sauce and better cheese and it will be an above average pie here in south jersey!

i tripled the recipe for 3 16" pies to bake on wednesday.

id like to have a little more browner crust and also maybe a little 'tang' to the dough. how can this be archived? i would like to try using a starter. time to start reading on the starter forum!








Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2008, 08:41:12 PM »
also, when taking the dough out the fridge to bring up to room temperature, do you keep them in the container or do you take the dough balls out and let the air greet them?

i watched a few pizza shaping videos on youtube so i think my next pies will look better.

Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2008, 08:42:04 PM »
thanks double 0 . i made a quick post about picasa in that forum.

Koloa,
looks like you got it!
Good luck forming your creations. Using the PJs Sauce?
Now if you can share with me how you do the picasa album link, I would appreciate that. Not here though send a Personal message or post on "how to use this forum"  section link.
thanks
John

Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2008, 09:01:56 PM »
also, when taking the dough out the fridge to bring up to room temperature, do you keep them in the container or do you take the dough balls out and let the air greet them?

You can do it either way. However, it will take longer for the dough to warm up if it is in a container because the container will be trying to warm up also. I usually gently remove the dough from its container, dust it with some bench flour, and let it warm up on my work surface. If you'd like, you can cover the dough ball with a sheet of plastic wrap if you are fearful that a "crust" will form on the outer surface of the dough ball.

BTW, you want to let the dough warm up AT room temperature, not TO room temperature.

Peter

Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2009, 01:59:08 PM »
hi,
i made more pizza on new yrs, this time a ~14" pie. i did as you suggested and placed the dough balls on my wooden cutting board and covered with plastic. i noticed that if i let the dough slip from my hands when making out  the pie, the dough can really stretch!

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/lMAeRRrzje_Jra2t4aJn6w?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6yzAU3rA-cKjeWetwORMEg?feat=directlink

btw, is there a way to imbed images into a post? or is that feature disabled?


Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2009, 02:00:26 PM »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2009, 04:41:10 PM »
koloa101,

Yes, there is a way of embedding photos in a post, as generally described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2433.0.html. In fact, my sense is that most people prefer that method. Also, there is no chance of links going dead. If you look at a typical reply box, you will see the limitations on the use of photos near the "Attach" feature.

Peter


Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2009, 09:57:20 AM »
hi Peter,
What should I try next? Is there anything in the photos that indicate anything wrong with the pizza other than the pizza shape? I think i make the crust to thick and should redistribute that dough to the center since it is pretty thin in that area.

Thanks!


Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2009, 11:05:03 AM »
koloa101,

I don't know which recipe(s) the photos belong to, or what type of flour you used, or how you baked the pizza (oven type, stone or pan, rack position, bake temperature and time), but if you used bread flour or high-gluten flour and a fairly long fermentation time, you should have gotten a darker-colored top and bottom crust. You got good oven spring, so if you make a skin of the correct size (e.g., 8") with a smaller rim and bake the pizza longer, I think you should get better overall results. What is also important is whether you liked the pizza, and also what you felt it lacked, if anything.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 01:24:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2009, 04:39:02 PM »
Hi Peter,
i followed this recipe for post 31

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.15%):

The dough went through a 4 day cold ferment and did around 2 hrs in room temp before baking. i used king arthurs bread flour and gas oven baked at 550 degrees for 7 minutes on the highest oven shelf using a baking stone(i will look at the type when i go home). i thought the cheese would burn so that's why i pulled it out. i definitely would like to have a browner crust. maybe i should add sugar? how about lowering the pizza on a lower shelf position so maybe the cheese won't cook as fast? i drizzled some extra virgin olive oil on the cheese before baking, would that quicken the cheese browning? I used part skim mozzarella. 

thanks!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2009, 04:52:43 PM »
koloa101,

It is possible to make a dough that will last four days without added sugar in the dough, but you would have to use cold water, less yeast and keep the dough as cold as possible at all stages. Short of that, I would use about 1-2% sugar, or even honey, if you want to go out beyond three days.

With your dough at four days, I can see why it was so extensible. Next time, you might try working with the dough with little or no warm-up.

With respect to your baking protocol, I suggest that you place your pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position. If it turns out that the bottom of the crust browns faster than the top, you can always shift the pizza up to the topmost oven position for about a minute or so (or maybe less for your size pizza) to get more top heat.

Peter

Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2009, 12:38:35 AM »
hi peter,
i just made more dough for sunday to try out the bottom shelf of my oven to hopefully get the crust slightly more toasty. i didnt add oil since it was an optional ingredient. i was wondering what does a 1% addition of oil do to the characteristic of a pizza? how about the 1%-2% sugar?

i found this tidbit about sugar.
"Sugar adds sweetness, as well as contributing to the product's browning. The main role for sugar in yeast breads is to provide food for the yeast. As the yeast grows and multiplies, it uses the sugar, forming byproducts of carbon dioxide and alcohol, which give bread its characteristic flavor. Sugar tenderizes bread by preventing the gluten from forming. Sugar also holds moisture in the finished product. "

so i guess it makes for maybe a sweeter, slightly browner, and moist crust? i tried art's recipe since his has some sugar. however, i really couldnt tell much of a difference. maybe i was off on my measurements?

 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2009, 08:54:16 AM »
koloa101,

In the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, including the versions posted earlier in this thread by both Art and me, the oil is mandatory but the sugar is optional.

Not too long ago, I asked Tom Lehmann about the use of sugar and oil in his NY style dough formulation and his answer is quoted in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7489.msg64438.html#msg64438. As noted in that reply, it is possible to omit the oil, as is frequently done by pizza operators for certain NY style doughs. Although not mentioned in Tom's reply, oil also helps to improve the rheology (flow characteristics) of the dough by coating the strands of gluten. This improves the extensibility of the dough.

Tom Lehmann usually only specifies sugar in his NY style dough formutation when the dough is to be held beyond a couple or few days. That is to make sure that the yeast is adequately fed over that time period and that there is sufficient residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. However, if the pizza is baked before about two days, the sugar in the dough at that stage can lead to premature browning, or even burning, of the bottom crust when the pizza is baked on a very hot surface, such as the stone surface of a deck oven. Also, there may be a deeper crust coloration overall because of the higher levels of sugar at this stage because the yeast hasn't yet consumed a good part of that sugar. If you would like to see an example of this phenomenon, look at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672. In that example, the dough (a Peter Reinhart American style dough) had a lot of sugar added to it (about 5.6%) together with a lot of milk, which includes lactose. Lactose is unique in that it is a milk sugar that is not used as food by the yeast yet contributes to crust coloration. Because of the very high sugar levels in that dough, I had to bake it on a pizza screen.

With all the above said, it has been my experience that using 1-2% sugar in a Lehmann dough to be baked in a standard home oven on a pizza stone is not likely to result in premature browning or burning of the bottom crust. My recollection is that Tom himself has said pretty much the same thing, as I noted at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2797.msg28607/topicseen.html#msg28607.

Your quoted "tidbit" about sugar is correct but to get a sweeter, more moist crust, you will usually have to use more than 1-2% sugar and there has to be enough total sugar in the dough unconsumed by the yeast at the time of baking to be able to taste it. When I did all my experiments with the Papa John's clone doughs, I used around 4% sugar. At that level, I could taste it in most cases. Different people have different sensitivities to sugar, so that is a factor to take into account.

In re-reading your post at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7530.msg65287.html#msg65287, you posed a question about getting more "tang" in the finished crust. There are many ways of achieving this result but you would have to reformulate the basic Lehmann dough formulation and dough preparation and management instructions. An example would be to use a preferment approach, such as a poolish, or a starter culture as you mentioned. Another way would be to use a very long room temperature fermentation, such as discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. In that method, the yeast would have to be increased from the stated amount because of the cooler weather this time of year.

Peter


Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2009, 09:01:36 PM »
peter,
thanks for the info! today i cooked both versions of the lehman pie, one with sugar and oil and the other without. clearly the one with the sugar and oil was much better. pie 1(sugar and oil) i started at the bottom of the 550 degree oven and then finished on the top broiler for maybe 30 seconds. i finally got some brown, thanks for that tip!...i will post pics as soon as i upload them! i only did 36 hr rise because i wont be home monday and tuesday. ive read it but now i know/taste/see the difference of the longer dough fermentation = softer, chewier, bubblier, sweeter crust.




Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2009, 09:28:57 AM »
koloa101,

For clarification purposes, I'd like to point out that whenever I shift a pizza from a lower oven rack position to the uppermost oven rack position in my oven, I do not turn on the broiler. That is an option that I have used before successfully to get better top crust browning for Neapolitan-style doughs using low protein flours, like 00 flours, or for doughs that appear to have low residual sugar, but for just about all other types of doughs, including the NY style, I have found that I don't really need the broiler. There is already enough heat at the top of the oven to produce the desired degree of top crust browning. These days, I reserve the broiler for those stubborn cases where it is hard to get good top crust coloration any other way, or to cook toppings more quickly and completely, or to dry out high-moisture toppings, etc. In your case, you might play around with both approaches and see which you like better.

Peter


Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2009, 12:28:40 PM »
latest creations: undercooked the veggie, overcooked the sausage/shrimp, made them a little too thick. these are 3 day cold fermented. i have 3 doughs growing for sunday night dinner! fun fun fun.

*how do i prep raw broccoli? this one i steamed it but it carried too much water content. do i put on raw?

do shops sprinkle Parmesan before or after baking?

Offline koloa101

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2009, 09:08:48 PM »
my progress thus far...

first few pics are of 57% hydration with KABF. Last pic is with 63% hydration KABF. The 63% was more elastic and had lighter crust. i preferred the 63%. I used grande and stella cheese. as of now, they are my favorite mozzarella. I am still on a journey to find a really good pizza sauce. I have a marinara recipe that i found on allrecipes which has been my favorite. i think i will use that next time. This forum kicks major a**!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: hi, how much dough to make for 2 8inch pizzas?
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2009, 09:17:54 PM »
koloa101,

Looking better each time. I see that you got the rims smaller this time too.

I think you meant to say "extensible" rather than "elastic". Elastic means that the dough has memory and springs back after stretching it out, much like a rubber band. An extensible dough does not spring back.

Peter