Author Topic: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza  (Read 13217 times)

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Offline varasano

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Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« on: January 20, 2005, 04:11:47 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm new to this site. I've been making pizza for 6 years and I'm getting pretty close to reproducing Patsy's Pizza on 117th street in NYC.  I thought you'd like to check it out.

http://www.think2020.com/jv/Recipe.htm

Ciao,

Jeff


Offline canadave

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2005, 04:23:05 PM »
*jaw drop*  :o

ummmmm.....Jeff?  That's awesome :)

Would you mind posting your recipe?  I looked on your recipe page on your website but it was a little unclear.  Also it looks like you're still going through changes in your preparation technique.

If I could make that pizza, I would be forever happy.

--Dave

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2005, 04:33:50 PM »
Hi Jeff

Welcome to our little place on the Internet ! glad you stopped by.

I'm sitting here drooling at your pizza there.... wowie.... wanna move into my neighbourhood ?  ;D

I could use a neighbour like you hehe  :D

We'd love to see your recipe, looks good.  I bet you use high gluten flour don't ya.

Mark
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Offline canadave

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2005, 04:37:34 PM »
I think his site said he uses bread flour.

Offline varasano

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2005, 04:43:12 PM »
I don't have an exact recipe, but I put up a few more lines on the recipe page.  It's been one long 6 year experiment that changes every time.  I can say that you really, really, really have to use a good sourdough starter.  I bought a dough from Patsy's for $3 (I said I was making a calzone at home) and I've been feeding it in my Fridge for 2 1/2 years.  Also, the 800F oven is really needed. Put this same pie in at 600F and it's a brick.

Check out the link to my dough page, which has a few more tidbits of info. 


jeff

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2005, 04:55:12 PM »
Jeff,
You now have 100% of my attention. I have been trying to reproduce a reasonable home version of a Patsy's pie for years. I even have a grill which gets up to 800 degrees but I have never gotten the results you have.

I know what I'm doing this weekend...
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Offline varasano

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2005, 05:38:40 PM »
I tried grilling also. Take special note of my section on heat distribution. If the grill is your only method to get really hot, then try wrapping the stone on the bottom with foil, possibly even several layers, to keep the stone cool. then the heat will come around the stone and heat up the cover, giving you a better distribution.  You really, really need a raytek or similar digital thermometer to pull this off.

Jeff

Offline Steve

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2005, 06:27:07 PM »
Jeff,

You're as crazy as me! Search the forum for some of my posts about getting a home oven HOT. I haven't tried the aluminum foil trick... yet! But I've got the IR non-contact thermometer, etc. Ever read Steingarten's book about making pizza at home? He's another one like us!

Anyway, welcome to the site! Would you consider the possibility of allowing me to use your recipe and photos on the main website? You'd get full credit, obviously! Think about it!  ;)
Steve
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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2005, 09:46:47 PM »
jeff....nice work on the site and  admire your dedication. I have one question for you, do you know for sure if patsys on 117th uses a starter, and if so is it a quantity of old dough added to the new batch, or is it a starter that is maintained daily? any thoughts.. I have been working on making dough like the great brick ovens of nyc  and enjoy comparing notes..
 ciao

  - ron

Offline varasano

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2005, 11:35:23 PM »
My culture is definitely Patsy's and not some random strain.  You can definitely taste it in my version.  I just  bought it, fed it and it kept on growing. I think they use old dough.  But I'm not 100% sure.  I doubt they keep a separate starter.  I'm also pretty sure that they add a baker's yeast booster, which I do too.  I talked to the long time waiter and he wouldn't get into too much detail, but this is what I surmised.  As far as dough vs battery starter, I never thought that it made too much difference either way.  I read the book they sell at sourdo.com and he talks about some difference, but I never played around too much in that direction.

I had another culture that I had for a little while which came from a pizza place across the street from Johnny's in Mt. Vernon.  It was obviously the same culture as Johnny's .  Yeast cultures can dominate a neighborhood.  You could just taste it was the same.  Johnny's is super secretive and won't give me anything, but I happened to pop into a place nearby and I could tell, even though the pizza was not great, that the basic underlying taste of the culture was there. Unfortunately, that culture died after a few weeks.  I opened it up and it was patsy's culture.  It had been taken over.  I might try again someday. It was very good.

I also bought 2 cultures from sourdo.com, but these died too.  I could probably do much better now, because I'm much more experienced than I was then.

I also once baked a dough from Patsy's in my oven here in Atlanta. I took it straight from the plane to the oven.  That dough was unbelievable.  It windowpaned, and blistered 10 times more than any other dough I've ever seen.  You could spread it into phyllo dough and it would have unpoped bubbles in it. It was by far the most elasatic dough.  But when I baked it,  it wasn't fabulous.  I was surprised.  The taste lost something in my oven.  I know I don't have a coal oven, but I had become convinced that it was more about the heat distribution than anything. Now I realize that the burning coal does add something I can't reproduce. However, my current pies have overcome some of that. I age mine more than Patsy's and this helps.  I'm pretty damn close right now, especially recently since switching to the DLX mixer. Huge improvement.

Jeff


Offline snowdy

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2005, 04:07:36 AM »
dude, jeff.

you freakin rule.

awesome, im speechless.

i dont know if my pizzas are even edible anymore after seeing your work :D

Im gonna crank up my oven, if i dont post here again assume i burned the house down. ;D

cant wait to follow your work more!!!!!

Keep it up.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2005, 08:36:57 AM »
Jeff,

I recently posted a message about a NYC pizza establishment, Una Pizza Napoletana, at http://forum.pizzamaking.com/index.php?topic=721.msg6702#msg6702, Reply #6, that appears to use a piece of old dough to make its new pizza dough. Do you think that is what Patsy's is doing?

Peter

Offline Steve

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2005, 09:52:04 AM »
Although I already have two thin crust doughs made and rising for pizza tomorrow, I am going to try your recipe... complete with short-circuiting my oven!  ;) I think I'll give this one a two day rise, so it'll be for dinner on Monday. I'll post pictures and commentary!
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Offline DKM

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2005, 09:55:52 AM »
I think I will Try it myself.
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline varasano

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2005, 12:41:12 PM »
I made 14 pies last night for a big party.  These were the best yet.  I really think I'm pretty much all the way home on the dough.  My sauce needs work and Cheese in Atlanta is sub par. But these were minor because the crust was so amazing.  Lately I've been bringing the temp down from 825 to about 775. Part of this was due to the oven cooling from making so many pies. But this dough does seem to come out a little better slightly cooler. I may push it back up to 800, I may have gone too low.

Steve, you mentioned linking to my web page on your home page.  I'm a little worried about mentioning breaking my oven because of the liability.  But maybe we can do something different. I'll think about it.

Jeff

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2005, 01:00:15 PM »
V,
I wonder if you have tried high gluten flour and if so what the results were. It's similar to bread flour but a notch closer to where I think you are trying to go crust wise.

I am also on a mission to recreate a Patsy's pie. I think my answer is no longer about the crust but rather the heat involved during baking.
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Offline varasano

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Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2005, 03:41:01 PM »
I haven't tried high gluten flour.  Does King Arthur sell it?  Has anyone ever used guisto or can anyone recommend any other high end flours?  What difference will I see with high gluten? I've seen the bags of flour sitting on the floor of patsy's and they do say 'high gluten' on them.

However, I'm at the point now where I'm about to move my focus away from the crust, which frankly is probably just as good as Patsy's. If I were to spend a lot more time experimenting with dough it would probably be by switching cultures to Johnny's or something from sourdo.com.  Too bad you guys can't taste my crust. These last few batches have been what I've been working towards for 6 years.

I really have to work on my sauce, which is good but not great, and to the cheese. My cheese is probably my biggest problem right now.

Offline Steve

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2005, 03:53:15 PM »
Do yourself, and your pizza a favor and try some high gluten flour.

You can buy it online from the King Arthur flour company, which is arguably the best flour company out there.

You want to order their "Sir Lancelot" flour which is their high gluten flour. You can buy it online at:
http://www.kingarthurflour.com (click on their Baker's Catalogue link.)

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Offline Steve

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Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2005, 03:55:51 PM »
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Offline varasano

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Ingredients
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2005, 04:19:33 PM »
Thanks for the flour link. I'll try it. Do you have a link for best tomatoes and cheese. I use Cento tomatoes.  They are good but not great. My cheese in Atlanta stinks.


Jeff


 

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