Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)

[beaunehead]

Yesterday, I used the dough mentioned in my last post to make the latest iteration of the De Lorenzo clone pizza. The dough formulation I used this time was very similar to the formulations for the doughs I made most recently and discussed earlier in this thread, except that for leavening purposes I substituted commercial yeast—IDY in this case—for the old dough. The specific dough formulation I used, as provided by the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, was as follows:

Flour (100%): Water (58%): IDY (0.375%): Salt (1.5%): Oil (5%): Sugar (2%): Total (166.875%):

137.33 g  |  4.84 oz | 0.3 lbs 79.65 g  |  2.81 oz | 0.18 lbs 0.51 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp 2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp 2.75 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp 229.16 g | 8.08 oz | 0.51 lbs | TF = 0.0609

(Note: The flour was KASL, and the water temperature was 74° F; the finished dough weight was 8 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 80.9° F; the residue compensation factor was 1.5%)

For my next try in the De Lorenzo series, I plan to use all-purpose flour and reduce the amount of oil to about 1.5%, along the lines recently suggested by beaunehead and MTPIZZA. Otherwise, the dough formulation is likely to be the same as the one presented above. I think I will return to a thickness factor of 0.06, at least for now. I would like to use some RedPack tomatoes, but according to the website of the parent company Red Gold, the RedPack tomatoes are sold mainly on the East Coast. The Red Gold tomatoes started to appear in the Texas market about a couple years ago, so maybe there is a Red Gold product that is comparable to the RedPack product.

Peter

Peter,

I tried this formulation for the dough last weekend. Though it was good and crisp, it was a bit drier/more cracker-like than Delorenzo's is. I made it one day and took it out of the fridge for two hours before stretching and baking at 525.

Frankly, the dough was a little drier than I've observed at Delorenzo's. Theirs seems a bit "wetter", though not a ton moister.  I like cracker-style, and grew up on it, but Delorenzo's seems lighter, less dense and with more bubbles than a cracker style, though it is equally rigid and , at times, as thin.

I used Pillsbury best flour.

One issue I've wondered about is that I make my dough using a food processor. I am not a skilled baker and am not that interested in baking--other than this pizza. But, I wonder if using a food processor requires a different mixing technique (I mix it until it forms a ball by itself and then take it out and knead it a little by hand). But, I wonder if that method makes me over-mix or undermix the dough?

Luckily, I can take the hike to Delorenzo's itself when I want the real stuff, but I won't stop trying. (I'm heading there this weekend: to the original in Trenton, which is going strong.)

p.s. Was there a "next try in the Delorenzo series"?

[Pete-zza]

beaunehead,

When I use a food processor, I generally use different methods to make the dough because of the tendency of the food processor to impart excessive heat to the dough and, in some cases, to overwork it if the dough is kneaded too long in the food processor. I discussed the food processor method I generally use at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19291.html#msg19291. Whether using that method will change the results you got is hard to say.

In answer to your question, yes, there was a "next try". It is at Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125. I might have pursued the project further but since I have never had a real DeLorenzo pizza and since I got no feedback from anyone trying the recipes I posted, there was no way for me to know whether I was succeeding or failing. I think you may be the only one who actually tried and reported back on any of my DeLorenzo clone pizza recipes.

Peter

[MTPIZZA]

Glad to hear the Trenton DeLorenzos is still going strong --as for their new place in Robbinsville... forget it!
To big...and they have inexperienced helpers making the pies... You may be lucky and get one made by Gary's son who runs the place (I have forgotten his name)...he makes a pie worthy of Hudson St. ... but I'll only eat at the original from now on....

[beaunehead]

Peter,

beaunehead,

In answer to your question, yes, there was a "next try". It is at Reply 139 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4104.msg45125.html#msg45125. I might have pursued the project further but since I have never had a real DeLorenzo pizza and since I got no feedback from anyone trying the recipes I posted, there was no way for me to know whether I was succeeding or failing. I think you may be the only one who actually tried and reported back on any of my DeLorenzo clone pizza recipes.

Peter

Now, I'm a bit confused; I think that's the one I used..the last one I could find, plus your email.

At any rate, there is apparently no substitute for an actual visit to the mecca of NJ. Plan to fly to Philadelphia from AZ (after the NFC championship is decided this Sunday). I'll take to you Delorenzo's for lunch and dinner...both places if you want, and want to come in on a Thurs or Friday....when both are open..the new one for lunch and both for dinner.

Let me know. It's a serious offer and one you could really "benefit" from in your efforts...

[Pete-zza]

beaunehead,


The wording "next try in the DeLorenzo series" appeared at the end of Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060. That "next try" took place in Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125.

Thank you for your generous offer. Maybe sometime when I am up in that general area.

Peter

[mmarston]

About a year ago I mentioned a bakery in San Francisco in this thread.
This thread  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7387.0.html   reminded me of name of the place I used to get tomato focaccia years ago. I was thrilled to see that's it's still there after 90 some odd years.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/liguria-bakery-san-francisco

If you are ever anywhere near SF try this place out.

[JoeyBagadonuts]

Tomato update:

I was at the Hudson St. location back in January, and I was talking to a man who said he worked there as a teenager. I asked about the tomatoes, he tells me it is 1 can of Crushed Red Pack Tomatoes combined with 2 cans of Whole Red Pack Tomatoes. Then the whole ones are hand-mashed and mixed with the crushed Red Pack. The tomatoes/sauce is not cooked. I didn't get any info on salt, or any other ingredients though. I tried to inquire about the crust and he told me the dough was only made by the family.

[JoeyBagadonuts]

Steve and anyone else,

How much do we really know about the De Lorenzo sauce? Is it only tomatoes, or does it include herbs (other than oregano on request), spices, sugar, garlic, onion, grated cheeses, or oil? Is it cooked or uncooked?

Peter

My grandfather told my uncle that there is sugar and salt added. Sugar to reduce the acidity and salt for flavor. My uncle seems tho think there might be some garlic powder in the sauce. Oh, and the sauce is uncooked.

[trentonpie77]

Tomato update:

I was at the Hudson St. location back in January, and I was talking to a man who said he worked there as a teenager. I asked about the tomatoes, he tells me it is 1 can of Crushed Red Pack Tomatoes combined with 2 cans of Whole Red Pack Tomatoes. Then the whole ones are hand-mashed and mixed with the crushed Red Pack. The tomatoes/sauce is not cooked. I didn't get any info on salt, or any other ingredients though. I tried to inquire about the crust and he told me the dough was only made by the family.

hi ya'll. first post. i've picked up some great tips here in my effort to make a decent delorenzo's / mack 'n manco hybrid pizza at home. i now have a working recipe, so thanks. anyhow, from being at the hudson st. delorenzo's recently i can confirm with 100% certainty that they use both red pack AND 6 in 1 tomatoes. from what i saw, there were two huge cans of whole tomato red pack and one huge can of whole tomato 6 in 1 dumped into a big bucket. one of their kids then sat there with his arm up to his elbow in the bucket and seemed to be crushing the tomatoes by hand. i thought it was weird that they did that in the open (in the back), but what the hell, it tastes good. didn't see any spices go in, but i couldn't see the whole process, so i don't know for sure ...

personally, i am a big fan of nutts in titusville for tomato pie as well. 

[Pete-zza]

trentonpie77,

How does your version compare with the De Lorenzo pizzas and can you share your dough recipe, etc., with the forum?

Thanks for the information on the tomatoes.

Peter

[Essen1]

pizzabrewer, hope you got my email.  please introduce yourself if you stop by.
Pete, your right on.  Blacklab breads is my gig.
Abatardi, i will gladly give the recipe and technique i use for the focacccia in the pics.  there are 2 versions.  one uses only a natural sourdough starter and the other is a commercial yeast version.  I'll post both, hopefully with pics, in the sicilian pizza section.
sorry to be so late getting back.

I'm wondering if BB (Barry) actually posted his recipe? I looked for it since I'd like to try my hands on a nice tomato pie/focaccia bread but couldn't find it in the Sicilian section. Or did he post it elsewhere, in another section, perhaps?

[bfx9]

WHAT I THINK I KNOW ABOUT DELORENZO'S TOMATO PIES.

12-15 minutes in the oven accordind to an employee who answered the phone
         semolina instead of cornmeal for the bench flour
pizzas have some char on bottom and on rim, more on the well done side
overall, bread is light, crispy and airy and a little more rigid than most pies
              600 degree gas oven would be max. 550 would be my best guess from seeing the dial
crust is in between cracker and ny street pizza in thickness
flour is "regular flour" according to the pie man at delorenzos pizza (a different pizza shop but but he swore he knew)
i believe the crust to be well developed, slightly sour-like, i taste yeast.
crust (rim) shatters when eaten, but inside is soft but not doughy.
middle is mostly crispy and it does droop a little, but less than most others (exept st louis style). inside is not chewy cause it's thin, but not dry either like a cracker.
cheese on first, toppings next, tomatoes last. then more cheese and drizzled oil halfway in
tomatoes are a blend of sweet precrushed and sweet whole plum california tomatoes hand crushed (redpack and 6 in 1 brands combined?) with a little salt added
sauce is uncooked before adding to the pie
dough is pliable, but not sure if it's overly wet.
no herbs at all on plain pie, which is why tomatoes may stand out.
unsure is dough is cold fermented and then proofed at room temp before baking
unsure if dough is just warm fermented the night before and used the next day
cheese breaks nice, stringy, creamy which tells me it's high in milk fat (like grande mozz)
whether it's whole milk mozz or part skim, IDK
type of starter or yeast..i don't have a clue
the website menu says they dont serve grated cheese, so why would they put it on the pies?



i am really guessing low hydration dough with AP flour (50% or less water) that has some oil, salt and is cold fermented for a couple days.
pizza would then be cooked well done
is it best just to use bread or high gluten (wouldn't it be too chewy in the middle?) of to ensure the crispyness towards the middle and just use higher hydration so it handles easier?
which one would produce that lighter, crispy, airy crust of delorenzos

i don't know.
this jouney seems one of duplicity and confusion!

[bfx9]

Hello all!
I'm back from my hometown of TRENTON NJ and had a great meal at DELO's Tomato Pies in Robbinsville.

The server was very forthcoming. He is moving to Texas soon and he also makes dough at the Hudson st. location on Sundays.
Great people, very open and I highly doubt they are aware people like us are this nuts.

Our server said the sauce again is definately 6 in 1 tomatoes mixed with plum tomatoes (i'm guessing canned redpack plum)
The flour is "Pillsbury Regular Flour" these were his exact words.
I asked if the dough was aged in a cooler, he said yes, cold rise for a couple days at least.

The dough has NO sugar.  OIL, FLOUR, WATER and SALT. That's it.

He thinks the yeast is made for them, he doesn't know where they get it from. He thinks it's a special order possibly.
I should have pressed this more. He should know what the appearence of the yeast is and I didn't ask!

550 ovens. Server told me and I saw this.
Pizza is not 4 minutes bake time. The call I made prior where the guy who answered stated 12-15 minutes, was WAIT time.
It was abut 9-10 minutes in the oven, moving the pie from the top to the bottom.
Our server said "10 minutes tops"  I agree and saw firsthand.

I was wrong on the semolina for peel. Server/dough maker kid said it was cornmeal. (It looks like fine whitish yellow cornmeal)

all hand kneaded of course
He said there is not a lot of water (high oil % perhaps to explain extensibility?)
Crust was in fact crackery, there i said it.
It was charred all around, crunchy and some spots chewy towards the middle, but always a crunch first.
crackery and airy/light is a good description.

The crust has a subtle sweetish taste like biscotti. I know this sounds odd but it has a faint biscotti flavor (the yeast?)
I went to Delorenzos Pizza in the clover plaza the next day and even though it's a different family member, I detected that same "biscotti"
flavor in their crust too. The flavor is IDENTICLE, but Delo's Tomato Pies are more charred overall and crunchier toward the middle and more uniformely crunchier. The rim's on both shatter and taste the same.

The bottom of the pies were wavy, undulating, uneven. cratery.
They are not flat like the bottom of an apple pie crust.

All pieces stand out stiff except the middle pieces IF they have toppings to weigh them down.
I ordered three pies, so I know this.
so....a plain pie will not droop on any slice. A sausage pie may have droopage for the middle 2 peices, cause they are longer and
weighed down slightly.



I very exited about this news, this supplements and updates my above post.
I was paying way more attention this time.

[Pete-zza]

bfx9,

Good job with your detective work.

You mentioned that the dough ingredients are only "OIL, FLOUR, WATER and SALT". Did you, or the server, inadvertently omit the yeast?  I ask this because there are some specialty yeasts that are sometimes added to doughs for flavor purposes more than for leavening purposes. Using a lot of regular yeast can also impart a more pronounced yeast flavor.

The "Pillsbury Regular Flour" would seem to be a reference to all-purpose flour. The designation you got from the server is not one that Pillsbury itself uses, as you can see from the Pillsbury foodservice/professional flour designations listed at http://www.pillsburybakery.com/products/ViewProduct.aspx?productId=217&CatId=36 and at http://www.pillsburybakery.com/products/ViewProduct.aspx?productId=216&CatId=36.

Can you clarify what you mean by the phrase "all hand kneaded of course"? Are you referring to the dough itself or something else?

Peter

[bfx9]

I inadvertently left out yeast. The "Yeast" discussion immediately followed his reveal of those four main ingredients.

Darn, I should of asked what the yeast looked like when he dropped it in.
Is it a packet, powder, poolish looking? IDK.

The AP flour has been confirmed by every source I have investigated. No other flour has ever been mentioned (00, bread, cake, High Gluten Ect.)
So Pillsburys APF must be it, but not under that exact name.

All hand kneaded meant: they don't take the room temp dough ball and throw it through one of those flattening devices before stretching.
This may seem obvious, but delorenzo's PIZZA not delorenzo's TOMATOE PIES, uses one of those machines in it's new remote locale within Risoldi's Grocery Store outside of Trenton.

I guessing because Delorenzo's Pizza (Not DELO'S Tomato Pies, even though Delo's Pizza is a Trenton Tomato Pie) is now within a couple fancy supermarkets, and sells the dough retail, the machine is great to aid rookie kids in a high turnover retail market.)
Just a time saver really.

I don't know if the main Delorenzo's Pizza on Hamilton ave uses that dough flattener thing. I also ate there directly after Delorenzo's Tomatoe Pie's.


I'm Rambling.

Also!

Delorenzo's pizza dough is sold along side the pizza shop within Risoldi's market.
It's IDENTICLE in flavor to DELO'S Tomatoe Pies I'm telling you.
They just don't cook them as well done and they cut them into traditional triangles. I think the oven may be 500 degrees also. (50 less than DELOS'S TP)

Delo's pizza is the best pizza ever, if not for Delo's Tomato pies.
They are very close.

[beaunehead]

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16814.0.html

As posted on a separate thread, the original mecca on Hudson ST. in Trenton is closing for good this month. Owners are aging (though not that old), and probably tired of having to have an off duty cop stationed out front on business days. They also have the wonderful "new" place in Robbinsville. But, this place is an original and will be sorely missed.

RIP

[JoeyBagadonuts]

Hello all!
I'm back from my hometown of TRENTON NJ and had a great meal at DELO's Tomato Pies in Robbinsville.

The server was very forthcoming. He is moving to Texas soon and he also makes dough at the Hudson st. location on Sundays.
Great people, very open and I highly doubt they are aware people like us are this nuts.

Our server said the sauce again is definately 6 in 1 tomatoes mixed with plum tomatoes (i'm guessing canned redpack plum)
The flour is "Pillsbury Regular Flour" these were his exact words.
I asked if the dough was aged in a cooler, he said yes, cold rise for a couple days at least.

The dough has NO sugar.  OIL, FLOUR, WATER and SALT. That's it.

He thinks the yeast is made for them, he doesn't know where they get it from. He thinks it's a special order possibly.
I should have pressed this more. He should know what the appearence of the yeast is and I didn't ask!

550 ovens. Server told me and I saw this.
Pizza is not 4 minutes bake time. The call I made prior where the guy who answered stated 12-15 minutes, was WAIT time.
It was abut 9-10 minutes in the oven, moving the pie from the top to the bottom.
Our server said "10 minutes tops"  I agree and saw firsthand.

I was wrong on the semolina for peel. Server/dough maker kid said it was cornmeal. (It looks like fine whitish yellow cornmeal)

all hand kneaded of course
He said there is not a lot of water (high oil % perhaps to explain extensibility?)
Crust was in fact crackery, there i said it.
It was charred all around, crunchy and some spots chewy towards the middle, but always a crunch first.
crackery and airy/light is a good description.

The crust has a subtle sweetish taste like biscotti. I know this sounds odd but it has a faint biscotti flavor (the yeast?)
I went to Delorenzos Pizza in the clover plaza the next day and even though it's a different family member, I detected that same "biscotti"
flavor in their crust too. The flavor is IDENTICLE, but Delo's Tomato Pies are more charred overall and crunchier toward the middle and more uniformely crunchier. The rim's on both shatter and taste the same.

The bottom of the pies were wavy, undulating, uneven. cratery.
They are not flat like the bottom of an apple pie crust.

All pieces stand out stiff except the middle pieces IF they have toppings to weigh them down.
I ordered three pies, so I know this.
so....a plain pie will not droop on any slice. A sausage pie may have droopage for the middle 2 peices, cause they are longer and
weighed down slightly.



I very exited about this news, this supplements and updates my above post.
I was paying way more attention this time.

BOOM! Yes, 6 in 1 with the Redpack tomatoes.

I just found out the exact flour they use. My friend works for an Italian food distributor who sells mostly to pizza joints. He delivers the the Hamilton ave location and from time to time he also fills in for the driver who delivers to the Robbinsville location. All locations are using PILLSBURY BEST BAKERS PATENT HIGH GLUTEN FLOUR! I do have a picture to prove it. I also always thought there was something different about the flour and when I read the ingredients on the bag yesterday, I noticed that there is malted barley flour in the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent High Gluten Flour. This is where I believe that slight variation in taste is coming from.

OH BTW, he does indeed deliver the cornmeal for them, among other ingredients. HOWEVER, 2 ingredients that DELO's doesn't order from them is the yeast or sausage.

[CIZ28]

I've never had pizza from any of the places in which this topic is about, but from what I've learned on here, oil is a softener, and not exactly what you'd want alot of to make a cracker-like crust unless the water was very low maybe. I'd also suspect that the flavor people are talking about is from the supposed custom yeast that they are using.

I've been told by friends in pizzerias that there is or was some additive available that makes dough more crispy but I can't find anything on it. They said that they have tried it but didn't like it. The name sounded like crispix or crispex. A tomato pie place opened up here and their crust is crispy even though the pies are not well done. Mozzarella on bottom, cooked halfway on the deck, then tomatoes, then back in on a screen until done. They are more on the thick side TF-wise and the pizza has a strange crunch and flavor that I haven't had anyplace else before. It's not tough, chewy, or crackery, and is more like a biscuit or crispy pastry crust than bread you could say. I wonder if there is any correlation.

[beaunehead]

Pretty sure they're cooking at 550. (I know they did that in Trenton.) I know they use part skim mozzarella. Believe sauce is as you say; not sure of the proportions. It is AP flour. They've told me that over the years...not high gluten.

Best stuff anywhere, IMO.