Author Topic: Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)  (Read 22298 times)

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Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2007, 05:40:57 PM »
Joe,

I think one of the best threads on pizza stones/tiles is this one: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1488.msg13540.html#msg13540. You will also see a post (one of mine) toward the end of the thread that links to other threads/posts that deal with the same general topic. That post isn’t up to date but I think it should suffice for your purposes. Otherwise, you can scan the topics under Pans & Accessories to get more recent posts. Once you have had a chance to review the relevant material, feel free to come back with any questions that might help you answer your own question. As you will see, there are many factors that go into a decision to buy a particular type of stone/tiles that will best meet your personal needs and pocketbook.

Peter



Peter,

thanks for the heads up.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2007, 06:01:53 PM »
Delorenzo's curst is probably the strongest crust I've ever had.  They cut their pizza in about 4 straight parallel lines and one line perpendicular to the 4 lines.  You can grab the longest slice (which is rectangular) and hold it by the end it and it won't drop at all.  I'm not sure about saltiness of the crust.  It is very tough and I actually have had my jaw tire out when eating the pizza.  It's not very soft on the inside (like most other pizza's cooked at high temp).  The reason I assume it's about 650-750 in their oven is the fact that their pizzas are cooked in about 4 minutes.  Another person pointed out a few posts ago that their cheese is actually preshredded.  I guess I assumed a little too much but we know for a fact that they are using shredded mozzarella (that is not fresh mozz).  I usually prefer fresh mozzarella on pizza but there is just something about their pizza that makes it better than any other I've ever had.  The tomatoes are super sweet (but it's not a sweetness you get from sugar, I don't like when places sugar up their sauce).  Hands down, my favorite sauce.  The cheese is rich and flavorful.  All I know is they have a small and large sizes, I've never ordered a small and I don't know the exact dimensions.  In terms of toppings, I know they have a big bin of raw uncooked sausage that they grab as chunks and throw it on the pie (it's my favorite sausage too).  Their pepperoni is pretty good (not sure if they make it or where they get it, it's one of my favorites (behind Luzzo's and Patsy's).  They use canned clams on their clam pies and add fresh parsley to the pie.  They use fresh garlic which is pretty tasty.  Their sweet peppers are the most amazing flavorful peppers I've ever had.  They also have hot peppers but I've yet to try them.  Also, there is no fresh basil on any of their pies.  And IMO, it doesn't need it. 

I've tried making pizza's like theirs before but have always come up short in terms of the crust and taste.  I think it's a very dry dough that is cooked at a very high temp.  As I said before, they let one side dry out from air exposure (you can see it because the dough has cracks where it's stretched from the drying).  That might be their secret.

What makes their pie good isn't 1 thing in particular.  I think it's the perfect balance and compliments with the crust, cheese, sauce, and toppings.  I think that the pies wouldn't be nearly as good if you substituted their cheese with fresh mozz, different tomatoes, or changed the toppings.  The place is really a mystery.  For a guy who loves sauce from fresh tomatoes and prefers fresh mozz and fresh basil on his pies, I still can't find a better pie than this. 

My girlfriend lives near there and she's the one who introduced me to the place a few years back.  She also has a bunch of relatives that live out in Phoenix.  They've eaten at Chris Bianco's place plenty and they still insist that Delorenzo's is better. 

I would have to disagree on that first statement about the holding a slice out and not falling or drooping. I have not had one of those rectangular pieces that DIDN'T droop. When the pie comes right out of the oven, the first slice or two, I cut the end which was close to the center of the pie because it is softer and droopy. As the pies starts to cool a little bit, it starts to solidify a lil more.

I do agree that the crust is strong the first few inches in on the edge, and my mouth has tired also.

My uncle said when he was young (1940's young) he spent some time in the kitchen on Mondays while there closed. He said they would be preparing dough and sauce for the next day. He noticed them putting salt and sugar in with the tomatoes. But cannot remember exactly if they put pepper and maybe even garlic powder in.

Now I have heard from many that they use Redpack. And I have heard my uncle say they used redpack, but the last couple times he was there, he saw 6-in-1 cans. Doesn't know if the 6-in-1 were the ground peeled or the chuncky peeled. Maybe they mix them with Redpack.
I just was at the food store and bought a can of Redpack peeled plum tomatoes (italian style). I opened them up, pulled a tomatoe from the can, drained as much juice as I could from the tomato, crushed it in a bowl, and ate it. It was good, but missing components. So, then I did the same thing, but added a pinch of sugar and a pinch of garlic powder, drizzled with EVOO, stirred , and ate. It was much better. But still missing stuff. My uncle says they would add an entire 5lb bag of sugar to a huge pot where they were making the sauce.

Well, i guess I will have to buy some stuff and start experiementing.

Is it possible for me to make the dough without buying a stand mixer?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2007, 06:35:06 PM »
Is it possible for me to make the dough without buying a stand mixer?
 

Joe,

I think the answer to your question depends on the hydration (the weight of water divided by the weight of flour, and specified as a percent) and the type of flour used. From what I have been reading in this thread, it appears that the De Lorenzo dough may have a low hydration, possibly something below or around 50% if I had to make an educated guess. At that level of hydration, the dough will be stiff and dense and dry and hard to knead by hand. If the flour used is a high-gluten flour, that makes hand kneading even more problematic. Most low hydration doughs require longer knead times than higher hydration doughs, and this is usually done by professionals using a commercial planetary mixer, such as a Hobart. A standard home mixer, like a basic KitchenAid mixer, will struggle with such a dough, as I have noted in the cracker-crust posts linked earlier in this thread. This has led some members to use a food processor instead.

Have you (or anyone else) ever seen the mixing equipment used by De Lorenzo's?

Peter

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2007, 08:16:30 PM »
Peter I have only seen the spiral hook used for the dough in the back... Gary was carrying it one night when I was there. It looked like the medium mixer that hobart would make not the real large floor mixers like in bakeries.. a medium size which would make sense since its a row home kitchen...

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2007, 08:30:52 PM »
 

Joe,

I think the answer to your question depends on the hydration (the weight of water divided by the weight of flour, and specified as a percent) and the type of flour used. From what I have been reading in this thread, it appears that the De Lorenzo dough may have a low hydration, possibly something below or around 50% if I had to make an educated guess. At that level of hydration, the dough will be stiff and dense and dry and hard to knead by hand. If the flour used is a high-gluten flour, that makes hand kneading even more problematic. Most low hydration doughs require longer knead times than higher hydration doughs, and this is usually done by professionals using a commercial planetary mixer, such as a Hobart. A standard home mixer, like a basic KitchenAid mixer, will struggle with such a dough, as I have noted in the cracker-crust posts linked earlier in this thread. This has led some members to use a food processor instead.

Have you (or anyone else) ever seen the mixing equipment used by De Lorenzo's?

Peter

Ok,

hmmm. Well, from what my uncle told me, I believe it to be a big floor mixer. Like one in a bakery with the huge bowl. I dont know what capacity though.
I am not really on the up and up on the percentages and weights of making dough.
Is there any step by step recipes around here for a thin crust dough that a beginner like myself can interpret and understand.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2007, 08:35:24 PM »
Peter I have only seen the spiral hook used for the dough in the back... Gary was carrying it one night when I was there. It looked like the medium mixer that hobart would make not the real large floor mixers like in bakeries.. a medium size which would make sense since its a row home kitchen...

I didnt see this post, so I could be wrong. Maybe it is a medium size. And it is a small kitchen in the back of a rowhome.

Man, whenever I come on here to read the posts, i start to crave one of their pies all over again. I am gonna have to make it out there this week sometime. I try not to eat it too much. Dont wanna ruin it. And I really want to cut down on my food intake. lol When I go this time, I hope they have something open in front so i can watch. i never really paid to much attention when i was there. I would be BSing with friends. now I want to get some clues.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2007, 08:58:09 PM »
Peter I have only seen the spiral hook used for the dough in the back... Gary was carrying it one night when I was there. It looked like the medium mixer that hobart would make not the real large floor mixers like in bakeries.. a medium size which would make sense since its a row home kitchen...


MTPIZZA,

A spiral mixer would be good for mixing tough doughs, which seems to be the case with the De Lorenzo doughs. The disadvantage with spiral mixers is that they can't be used to mix sauces and they don't have attachments that allow operators to shred cheese and vegetables. That may account for why De Lorenzo's uses preshredded cheeses. Tom Lehmann discussed some of the differences between planetary and spiral mixers at this post: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=7190.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2007, 09:24:48 PM »
Is there any step by step recipes around here for a thin crust dough that a beginner like myself can interpret and understand.


Joe,

For just about all of my dough recipes (aka “dough formulations”), I lay out all of the ingredients and quantities, together with a detailed set of instructions. However, I work mainly with baker’s percents and weights rather than volumes, which can be very unreliable for ingredients like flour and water. For those two ingredients, I use a digital scale. In my view, if one is to conduct many experiments and tests to try to replicate someone else’s dough, such as a De Lorenzo dough, you will need to use a good scale for weighing the flour and water. Otherwise, your results are likely to be all over the place, and even if you ended up with the perfect dough/pizza, you might not be able to replicate it again.

As an example of the way that I lay out my dough formulations, you might take a look at the first two posts in the thread I referenced before, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg43956.html#msg43956. For beginning members who want to make a thin NY style, I usually recommend that they read this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. Most of the action starts at Reply 8, but it may be worth reading the entire thread. Much of what you will read will not directly apply to a cracker crust type of pizza, but a good part of the information is fairly generic in nature.

Other members may have their own methods that they use and feel comfortable in recommending to you as a beginner, even if it is only to pass on the basics of pizza making and not of particular value in replicating a De Lorenzo dough. 

Peter

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2007, 06:25:08 PM »
Joe,

For just about all of my dough recipes (aka “dough formulations”), I lay out all of the ingredients and quantities, together with a detailed set of instructions. However, I work mainly with baker’s percents and weights rather than volumes, which can be very unreliable for ingredients like flour and water. For those two ingredients, I use a digital scale. In my view, if one is to conduct many experiments and tests to try to replicate someone else’s dough, such as a De Lorenzo dough, you will need to use a good scale for weighing the flour and water. Otherwise, your results are likely to be all over the place, and even if you ended up with the perfect dough/pizza, you might not be able to replicate it again.

As an example of the way that I lay out my dough formulations, you might take a look at the first two posts in the thread I referenced before, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg43956.html#msg43956. For beginning members who want to make a thin NY style, I usually recommend that they read this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. Most of the action starts at Reply 8, but it may be worth reading the entire thread. Much of what you will read will not directly apply to a cracker crust type of pizza, but a good part of the information is fairly generic in nature.

Other members may have their own methods that they use and feel comfortable in recommending to you as a beginner, even if it is only to pass on the basics of pizza making and not of particular value in replicating a De Lorenzo dough. 

Peter



Well, it really looks like I need to purchase some equipment if am seriously gonna start making pizzas.
I need a stand mixer, pizza stone(s) or clay tiles to make a hearth-type kit, a peel, pizza cutter, trays, scale....trying to think what else I need.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2007, 06:39:54 PM »
Peter their crust is slightly sweet, crispy, and flavorful, its thin and usually stands out straight when the piece is picked up..no soggy or droopy crusy. Its not salty although they must add sparingly. It has a nice crisp texture due to the semolina and high oven temp they cook at. The inside of the crust is soft but not real chewy or gummy...a very very light pie...I have been known to eat a whole large pie myself. The two sizes are real different from each other ...they make one dough size from what I gather they just stretch it  more for the large. I think they only have one size alum. pan when they serve. I think it is a Blodgett oven and it is pretty old. I can't remember what year they switched over from coal... they do cook at higher temps, cause when that pie is out of the oven... ITS BLAZING HOT.. Many a night I was awake with a burnt upper palate

Another member of this forum said that you might have found a live culture in their dough and that they might use a wild yeast. Do you think this could be the case?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2007, 06:42:34 PM »
trying to think what else I need.

Joe,

You should get a good set of measuring cups and spoons if you don't already have them, and a few spatulas. A good instant read thermometer will also be useful. If and when you become addicted to pizza making, you may end up like many of us who purchased IR thermometers. Otherwise I think you have identified the gear you will want to have to make the De Lorenzo type of pizza. If you later migrate to other kinds of pizzas, there are other items you might want to purchase, but for now I think you are in pretty good shape with the basics.

Peter

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2007, 02:36:36 PM »
Joey, yes I definately think DeLorenzos uses some sort of wild yeast for leavening, this is why they have their unique flavor as well as the other ingrediants they use.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2007, 03:24:57 PM »
Joey, yes I definately think DeLorenzos uses some sort of wild yeast for leavening, this is why they have their unique flavor as well as the other ingrediants they use.

Well, I guess you can buy wild yeast or do it at home.
I am wondering if they start their own back in the 1930's and maybe use a starter of some sort. Is that possible?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2007, 05:38:57 PM »
MTPIZZA,

I hear you, but I am still having a difficult time getting my mind around the process. Maybe if I walk through my thought processes, something will come back to you.

In thinking through this subject in relation to a commercial operation, I would think that the easiest way of introducing flavors into a dough, along with some collateral textural and aroma attributes, would be to use scrap dough in the new dough. The scrap dough could even be the regular dough that was set aside from the rest of the dough for several days in order to intensify the contributions of that dough when added to the additional ingredients of flour, water, salt, yeast, etc. to make the dough as part of the final mix. Normally, this scrap dough would use commercial yeast, as would the final dough as a separate addition, since the leavening power of the scrap dough would be diminished after several days. This method would have the advantage that it would be easy to instruct workers, especially low-cost labor, how to make the dough reliably and consistently. And one could perhaps use a lot of the scrap dough in the process of making the final dough from which the pizzas are to be made, with corresponding increases in the flavor, texture and aroma profiles of the finished dough and pizza.

If the scrap dough method is ruled out because it uses commercial yeast, that means that one would also have to rule out the classic preferments like poolish, sponge and biga because they are also based on using commercial yeast. Classic old dough (and chef and pate fermentee) methods based on using commercial yeast would also have to be ruled out.

I think this pretty much leaves us with two methods, a “natural” old dough method and a mother dough method, both of which are based on using wild yeast. Both of these forms were described briefly by pizzanapoletana (Marco) in one of his early posts on this forum. I have excerpted below (in italics) the part of Marco’s post on this aspect. As will be noted in the excerpted portion, Marco prefers the mother dough method, which is a direct method, to the natural old dough method, which is an indirect method.

The old dough method, is a way of using a piece of acidified dough from the previous batch (thus including salt and usually made with a natural wild yeast starter otherwise doesn't have leavening power). When using a culture starter from another regions, like the Italians one, I strongly recommend not to use the old dough method, but instead the Mother dough method.

In the mother dough method, a piece of dough made with only water and flour plus the culture starter, is refreshed with a 50% addition of water and flour, and after is left to ferment for a minimum time of 3-6 hours, a piece is cut off (the dauther) and used as fermenting agent or in large quantity as preferment. This way, thanks to the strong innoculating of the original mother dough into the refreshment, there is a better chance to avoid contaminations.
(http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679.html#msg8679, Reply 10). (Note: “dauther” in the above excerpt is intended to be “daughter”)

As between these two methods, I believe the old dough method would most likely be the easier one to implement in a pizzeria such as De Lorenzo’s, especially if contamination issues are not of concern and also if the dough preparation is to be done by low-cost labor. What I don’t have a good grasp of is how effective this method is for making dough on one day to be used the next, especially if the dough out of the mixer is left to ferment (presumably at room temperature), punched down, and then refrigerated, as previously described in relation to the De Lorenzo operation. The two times I used this method it took over a day of fermentation/ripening of the dough, at room temperature, to get a usable dough. Admittedly, my starter culture was not wildly active to begin with, so that may have been the reason I didn’t achieve great success with that method. That may also be the reason why some bakers, even artisan bakers, add a bit of commercial yeast to their natural starters and preferments. In my case, I went to the direct method or variations of it.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 08:13:08 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2007, 07:54:43 PM »

"The two times I used this method it took over a day of fermentation/ripening of the dough, at room temperature, to get a usable dough. Admittedly, my starter culture was not wildly active to begin with, so that may have been the reason I didn’t achieve great success with that method."


Peter,

What was your results with this type of crust?


In the Old Dough method described above, what does "acidified dough" mean?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2007, 10:11:54 PM »
Joe,

When I went to find the posts in which I discussed this subject, I discovered that I made and discussed three pizzas using the natural old dough method in one form or another, not two. The posts, along with photos, are these:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9547.html#msg9547 (Reply 55),
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9680.html#msg9680 (Reply 63), and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg10000.html#msg10000 (Reply 64).

One of the things you should keep in mind in reading the above posts is that I was using 00 flour, which is an imported relatively low protein Italian flour that does not brown well when used to make doughs (mainly Neapolitan style doughs) that are to be baked in a conventional home oven. The crust browning would be much more pronounced if a U.S. style high protein flour were to be used. Also, I was feeling my way around with my experiments especially since there wasn’t much available on the forum or elsewhere to guide me. Even flying blind I ended up with some very good tasting pizzas. But I never felt I mastered the process to call it a big success, which to me means being in control of the process, not the other way around.

FWIW, according to notes that I prepared during one of my visits (9/16/06) to Una Pizza Napoletana in NYC, Anthony Mangieri was then using (or so he said) a combination of a natural old dough and a natural starter. Even his times were long. He told me that he was using a natural starter, based on wild NYC yeast, which he refreshed every 24 hours. After 24 hours, he would combine some of the natural starter with old dough and let that ferment for 24 hours more. I can't say that he is still using that regimen. Anthony is asked about his methods so much by people who want to do something similar to what he is doing that it is possible that he was trying to throw me off of the scent. I would perhaps do the same if I was in his shoes. I think you now can see why I keep probing what De Lorenzo's is doing in its dough making.

As to your question about an acidified dough, during the fermentation process, whether using commercial yeast or wild yeast, there are several organic acids (e.g., acetic acid, lactic acid, propionic acid, etc.) that are produced in the dough in the presence of bacteria (primarily lactobacillus) that ultimately contribute to the flavor and aroma of the finished crust. Usually, the greater the amount of the starter or preferment used, the greater the production of such acids, and the greater their effect on the finished dough into which the acidified dough is introduced as part of the final mix.

Peter

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2007, 07:30:24 AM »
Peter after reading your post, I feel they must be using the Marco approach to their dough method. They clearly do not use 00 Caputo flour I would know that flour anywhere, and you can tell by the pictures posted that they use some other type of flour. As for the leavening from old dough if they kept a large batch on the side replenishing it daily I would find that there would be more than enough to keep the dough making process going. I remember a post on youtube where a breadmaker had a very large plastic tub where he took off the lid and there was a spongy mass sticking to the top. When mixing his dough he pulled out a hunk but didn't use all of it.. just a portion and put it into the mixer. Therefore he still had plenty to refresh and let sit for the next days use. When I'm making my dough I just cut off a sticky spongey piece and put in my flour with water, salt , a little sugar and away I go... I still have more than half of my original culture to add to and have ready for the next time. Its not a matter of not having enough so much as it is a matter of just keeping it going by refreshing with more flour and water only.
DeLorenzo must just keep a couple days worth going... one day is ripening while another that has been resting is used... But since we really have no way of seeing the process I guess maybe they supplement with a little yeast... but I swear I don't smell any in the finished product.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 07:34:03 AM by MTPIZZA »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2007, 08:36:01 AM »
But since we really have no way of seeing the process I guess maybe they supplement with a little yeast... but I swear I don't smell any in the finished product.

MTPIZZA,

I once spoke to one of the bakers at the highly regarded NYC Sullivan Street Bakery, which has become famous worldwide (thanks to the internet) for its No Knead dough method, and he confessed to me during my cross examination that they add a small amount of IDY to their natural starters used to make sourdough bread, for which they are held in high esteem. Apparently there is a commercial reason for doing this, such as shortening the fermentation time or because of concerns over the reliability of natural starters if used alone. In the latter vein, I once read that Anthony Mangieri at UPN was unable to open his establishment on a couple of occasions because of problems with his naturally fermented dough. When I subsequently asked him about that, he said that it was not true. But I still wonder.

Peter

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2007, 04:16:53 PM »
Alls I can say is WHOA!

Alot of information.

I need to find out how they are doing it. There has got to be a way to get the scoop on what they are doing.

MTPIZZA,

How did you obtain a piece of raw dough from them?
I know the run of the mill pizza shop will sell you some dough, but i dont think Delorenzo's will.
If it was possible to obtain a pies worth of raw dough, and assuming there is yeast in it, I am wondering if I would be able to try the old dough method to try and replicate.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2007, 04:20:48 PM »
Maybe I can bribe one of the waiter boys.

Maybe I need to go to the spy shop to see if they have any cameras on a bendable wire, so when I sit in the back by the kitchen I can shimmy it around the corner.