Author Topic: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator  (Read 7303 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2009, 07:19:46 AM »
That's makes a lot of sense! So basically while ADY and IDY can be active below 40, the Ischia will be inactive. This explains why everybody in this forum is using room temperature fermentation when working with sourdough cultures  :-[

Bill, I had a question that you could probably answer. When you 48 hours bulk rise and then 24 hour room temperature bulk rise, how come the dough doesn't get over-fermented?

I'm guessing here but it seems that me comparing fermentation rate and temperature of ADY/IDY against sourdough cultures is completely wrong. Can I basically think of it that 35F for an ADY/IDY dough in the fridge would be similar to a 65-70F for an Ischia dough?

s00da


I have never had a problem with the kind of over fermentation that commercial yeast doughs can experience. I use relatively small amounts of starter, so I think the culture always has adequate food to. Some say that large bubbles can be a sign of over fermenting and my pizzas do indeed have lots of bubbles. But that is how I like it. And they are produced regardless of how long the dough ferments. It is also said that fermenting too long can cause the gluten structure to break down. Not sure I have ever observed this either. 

I stopped using commercial yeast from all my bread and pizza doughs and have found them to be very noble - producing great results over a wider range of conditions.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2009, 09:40:41 AM »
saad,

When you are using only 5% (of the formula water) starter, you have to rethink all of the processes, which, to me, means discarding the notion of cold fermenting the dough immediately after it is made, as you might do with a commercially leavened dough. Marco (pizzanapoletana) never suggested that one use the 5% figure in the context of cold fermentation. It was always in the context of a room temperature fermentation and, more particularly, with respect to 00 flour (because of its low amylase activity). I am not saying that there cannot be any period of cold fermentation, as some members have used, myself included, but at low levels of starter you are going to have to subject the dough to one or more periods of room temperature fermentation at some point. Even then, you may not get optimal results. Marco discussed some of the aspects of the differences between room temperature and cold fermentation at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410. Several members have overcome some of the problems associated with room temperature fermentations by using a unit such as the MR-138 ThermoKool unit. Otherwise, you will have to make modifications to the dough formulation and dough management just as the Neapolitan pizzaioli do to compensate for variations in room temperature.

I once conducted an experiment in which I intentionally tried to "kill" a naturally leavened dough by overfermenting it. I had done this before with commercially leavened doughs and I wanted to see if the same scientific principles would apply to a naturally leavened dough. I concluded that they did, as I described in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5505.msg46570/topicseen.html#msg46570.

Sometime you might want to block out a period of time and read all of Marco's posts on the subject of natural starters, as I have done several times before. Marco admittedly did not always lay things out in great detail, perhaps because he was contemplating writing a book on Neapolitan pizza (since put on hold or abandoned), but I believe that most of the pieces of the puzzle are there for the patient reader to divine.

Peter


Offline Matthew

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2009, 04:04:56 PM »
S00da,
It's funny that you mention that, I wanted to try the same thing but using Verasano's method & recipe.  I'm a little confused with this; Verasano uses 9% starter & refrigerates his formed dough balls about 20 minutes after the final dough has been completed & doesn't remove the dough from his fridge until about 80 minutes prior to making his pizza.  How does he get such great results???  Am I missing something?  Is it because he uses 9% starter vs. 5%?

Matt
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 04:14:27 PM by Matthew »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2009, 04:53:00 PM »
Am I missing something? 

Varasano isn't using Ischia. Each starter culture is different - e.g.,  different reproduction rates across  a range of temps. I've got a Russian culture that will blow the lid off a Cambro, even in the fridge.


Offline November

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2009, 04:54:16 PM »
I've got a Russian culture that will blow the lid off a Cambro, even in the fridge.

Sounds like cold war sentiment.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2009, 05:38:56 PM »
I wanted to try the same thing but using Verasano's method & recipe.  I'm a little confused with this; Verasano uses 9% starter & refrigerates his formed dough balls about 20 minutes after the final dough has been completed & doesn't remove the dough from his fridge until about 80 minutes prior to making his pizza.  How does he get such great results???  Am I missing something?  Is it because he uses 9% starter vs. 5%?

Matt,

There are a few other possibilities. First, I believe that Jeff Varasano is no longer using 9% starter but rather 5%. However, the 5% is with respect to the total dough weight, not total formula water. If so, as noted below, that translates into a higher percent, around 12.77%, when measured with respect to the total formula water. Second, he used commercial yeast in addition to the natural starter. Third, the time from when the commercial yeast is incorporated into the dough until the dough goes into the refrigerator is quite long. This gives the dough a head start on fermenting before it goes into the refrigerator.

To have a record, I converted Jeff's baker's percent methodology to be usable in the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I believe I got everything right, but if perchance I made an error, I hope someone will bring it to my attention. For purposes of using the preferment dough calculating tool, I used Jeff's numbers for one pizza from his recipe page as referenced at his new website. I also included the IDY, which Jeff included in his spreadsheet. He may or may not be using it anymore. Here is what I got:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (66.9517%):
Salt (3.4188%):
IDY (0.2849%):
Total (170.6554%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

175.5 g  |  6.19 oz | 0.39 lbs
117.5 g  |  4.14 oz | 0.26 lbs
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
299.5 g | 10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs

 
168 g | 5.93 oz | 0.37 lbs
110 g | 3.88 oz | 0.24 lbs
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs
299.5 g | 10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: 15 grams starter divided by 117.50 grams water = 12.77%; assumes regular salt, not Kosher

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2009, 07:14:43 PM »
Matt,

There are a few other possibilities. First, I believe that Jeff Varasano is no longer using 9% starter but rather 5%. However, the 5% is with respect to the total dough weight, not total formula water. If so, as noted below, that translates into a higher percent, around 12.77%, when measured with respect to the total formula water. Second, he used commercial yeast in addition to the natural starter. Third, the time from when the commercial yeast is incorporated into the dough until the dough goes into the refrigerator is quite long. This gives the dough a head start on fermenting before it goes into the refrigerator.

To have a record, I converted Jeff's baker's percent methodology to be usable in the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I believe I got everything right, but if perchance I made an error, I hope someone will bring it to my attention. For purposes of using the preferment dough calculating tool, I used Jeff's numbers for one pizza from his recipe page as referenced at his new website. I also included the IDY, which Jeff included in his spreadsheet. He may or may not be using it anymore. Here is what I got:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (66.9517%):
Salt (3.4188%):
IDY (0.2849%):
Total (170.6554%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

175.5 g  |  6.19 oz | 0.39 lbs
117.5 g  |  4.14 oz | 0.26 lbs
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
299.5 g | 10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs

 
168 g | 5.93 oz | 0.37 lbs
110 g | 3.88 oz | 0.24 lbs
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs
299.5 g | 10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: 15 grams starter divided by 117.50 grams water = 12.77%; assumes regular salt, not Kosher

Peter


Hi Peter,
Thanks alot, I'm going to try it based on your calculations & Jeff's method & report back the results.  I'm not sure on whether to use the Camoldoli or Ischia?  I wasn't aware that Jeff had a new website.  I would be interested in checking it out, can kindly provide me with the address?

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2009, 07:32:22 PM »
I wasn't aware that Jeff had a new website.  I would be interested in checking it out, can kindly provide me with the address?

Matt,

It's at http://www.varasanos.com/. There's not much there yet and, as the home page indicates, the website may change again. But the link to the recipe page where I got the data for the preferment dough calculating tool is there.

You can, of course, use the preferment dough calculating tool to make as many dough balls as you'd like. Just remember that the starter (5.00834%) is used as a % of Total Dough Weight and that its water content is 50% (7.5/15 = 50%). If you'd prefer to use the Italian method, as does Marco, you can use the 12.77% figure and check the % of Total Water box. Others like to use a percent of total formula flour method, which is the method used in the U.S. The percent starter for that approach is 8.544% (% of Total Flour). The outputs using all three approaches are identical.

You might want to start a new thread if you'd like to report your results so that we don't send this thread off in a new direction.

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2009, 07:35:22 PM »
As always Peter, thanks so much; you're a great mentor! :)

Matt

Offline s00da

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2009, 07:55:04 PM »
Peter,

You are totally right. Before I used the Ischia, I've read many posts on the forum but couldn't conclude that room temperature fermentation is needed for low percentages. It was clear to me that room temperature fermentation was mentioned frequently with the Ischia but couldn't decide that it was a must. I think I used my ADY preparation method out of laziness.

Matt, you would probably be interested in this. My preparation method is actually a variation of Varasano's but without the sourdough starter, I only used ADY. Now that I replaced the ADY with the Ischia, my dough balls did not move at all throughout the 16 hours at 35F. So I guess that pretty much confirms that the Ischia isn't suitable for cold fermentation. I decided to take the dough balls out and see how they would react to a room temperature of 75F. I came back after 12 hours and the Ischia is actually working now, I can see the dough balls are larger and the formation of bubbles is visible. I have not decided where to go from here but it sounds like a good  experiment so far.

One thing was interesting to notice was that the dough balls had very small black spots on them. The smell was not pleasant either, anyone has an idea what is that?

s00da
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 07:56:36 PM by s00da »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2009, 08:24:51 PM »
One thing was interesting to notice was that the dough balls had very small black spots on them. The smell was not pleasant either, anyone has an idea what is that?


saad,

Did they look like the black spots shown in Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 but perhaps not quite as severe? Or maybe more like the ones shown in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370 ? And are the spots limited to the top of the dough or are they on the sides and bottom too?

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2009, 08:44:47 PM »
Peter,

Although I do not see much of a difference between the two images you are referring to except that the first one is more severe but I can say that the black spots that I have are closer to the seconds image...the less severe one. I did not look at the side of the dough but I'm sure I didn't see them on the bottom.

Another thing is the smell. It smells like wet flour but it's getting stronger with time.

s00da

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2009, 08:55:59 PM »
saad,

I don't recall an unpleasant smell, but the spotting appears to be either oxidation of bran particles or dead yeast colonies. In my case, the yeast was commercial yeast and the spotting took many days to appear. If the cause of the spotting is oxidation of bran particles or dead yeast colonies, the condition is harmless.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2009, 09:14:32 PM »
Peter,

As I indicated, I was using a variation of Varasano's method so I started with ice cold water. The first thing I incorporated into the water was the Ischia stater and since it has a 50:50 flour:water ration, it was very thick. When it first dropped into the water, I noticed that it behaved as a single mass and resisted mixing but I went ahead and added the flour on top of it assuming that it will mix thoroughly.

I believe what I have is the dead yeast colonies according to http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730479 and since the dough is not old so it cannot be oxidation of bran particles.

I think this dough needs to be executed before it turns into a zombie  :o

I think I need to start a new dough tomorrow. Which room-temperature recipe would you suggest for the Ischia that provides flexibility in terms of baking time planning?

s00da

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:21:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2009, 09:42:39 PM »
I think I need to start a new dough tomorrow. Which room-temperature recipe would you suggest for the Ischia that provides flexibility in terms of baking time planning?

s00da

saad,

It's been a while since I have used one of the Italian starters so you might do better to have another member who is actively involved in making room-temperature fermented doughs offer up a dough formulation for you to use. However, to get an idea as to the basic methods I used, you might take a look at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807. In my case, I used a wine unit to store the dough, so some adjustments in the formulation and/or starter quantity and fermentation time might be needed if your room temperature is higher than the temperature of my wine unit. The dough formulation I used was before the preferment dough calculating tool was created. These days, I would use that tool to do all of the number crunching--more accurately, I might add, than the method I used at the time.

One of the early dough formulations that got our members started on their journey to naturally-leavened Neapolitan style doughs was the one that Marco posted, which can be seen at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915/topicseen.html#msg12915. That dough formulation might have to be scaled back if you don't want to make the full batch of dough (2745 grams, or 96.83 ounces, or a bit over 6 pounds). I would use the preferment dough calculating tool to do the scaling.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2009, 09:05:56 AM »
Peter,

I must say thanks a lot! This second thread you directed me to http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915/topicseen.html#msg12915 is an eye opener. I can see how Bill started his use with the starter and Marco's posts also provided me more. Now that I am certain that I'm using the correct dough formulation and the knowledge that I need to use the starter in room-temperature fermentation, I think I am more confident in moving forward.

What is also nice is that my zombie dough gave me good confirmation after the 24 hours room fermentation as it doubled in size. I went ahead and punched it down and balled the dough just to see how it feels. What is worth mentioning is that this is the first time I see my dough with this amazing gluten development and structure. It is so soft yet stretchy in a good way. It looks and behaves so much like the doughs I see being opened and stretched by a professional pizzaioli in videos. I always wondered how they were able to apply the sauce and toppings on the marble surface and then pull the pizza onto a peel without it tearing or over-stretching. If I've done that with my same dough formulation that I use to make previously with 72 cold fermentation, it would have been a big mess.

I will report back on my first dough that I am making today and provide images so to get some feedback from yourself and others.

s00da

Offline s00da

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2009, 11:59:29 AM »
Just finished my dough.

Below are 4 images.

1- The Ischia after feeding, the rubber band is where it was pre-feeding. That looks a little more than double.
2- The dough after a 20 minutes rest period in the mixing bowl.
3- After a one minute hand kneading and dusting.
4- In a big glass bowl for room temperature fermentation. Will take another picture after 24 hours.

Offline s00da

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2009, 07:22:37 AM »
A little update.

Below is a picture of the dough after 18 hours room temperature fermentation. It was 75 degrees and pretty much consistent.

To me it looks like it will almost blow up but I will let it ferment up to the planned 24 hours and adjust if necessary the next time around.

s00da

Offline Fingerstyle

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2009, 09:26:00 AM »
...Can I basically think of it that 35F for an ADY/IDY dough in the fridge would be similar to a 65-70F for an Ischia dough?

s00da


Yes, that's a fair comparison. I room temp rise Ischia, and only refrigerate it for scheduling convenience (if I'm not ready to bake when it's risen.)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 09:51:42 AM by Fingerstyle »
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Offline s00da

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Re: Sourdo.com End-Starter Hydration % and Calculator
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2009, 03:56:27 PM »
Fingerstyle, I actually had to retard the dough for the same reason.

At 21 hours it reached a bigger size and I realized that I couldn't bake in the same day.

Tomorrow I will take the dough out to cut down to balls and proof for 4 hours before baking but I wonder if I could do that right out of the fridge while it's cold or if I have to let the bulk dough come down to room temperature first.

s00da
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 03:58:52 PM by s00da »


 

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