Author Topic: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil  (Read 14333 times)

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Offline SDBob

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #260 on: March 21, 2015, 02:25:44 PM »
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 02:28:02 PM by SDBob »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #261 on: March 21, 2015, 02:35:40 PM »
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?
I get mine from a local small bakery.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #262 on: March 21, 2015, 07:59:24 PM »
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?

You usually throw this style crust in the trash?  Are you mad?  It's the best part of the pizza.  Hmmm when I do room ferments I smell the alcohol after about 6hrs with less than 1/2 tsp IDY.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 08:02:30 PM by pythonic »
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Offline SDBob

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #263 on: March 22, 2015, 08:46:41 AM »
I was tossing it because it was bland and I think I know what I was doing wrong...when you put the dough in the oven for 6 hrs is this at room temp or 95F? I thought last nights pie was really good despite the alcohol I smelt coming off the dough in the morning.  What flavors are associated with overfermented dough after it is baked, since I assume the alcohol would be all gone?  A couple things I've noticed and I don't think it can be stressed enough is to leave the pizza in the pan for at least 5minutes after it's out of the oven, and to take care not to spill any of the top liquid over the sides.  I had a few pizzas get some really soggy bottom crust as a result of taking out of the pan too early and letting some of those juices get underneath.  It's hard to resist the temptation of slicing it up and taking a bite, but it really has made a huge difference with the crispness of the bottom crust.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 08:50:00 AM by SDBob »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #264 on: March 22, 2015, 02:04:23 PM »
I was tossing it because it was bland and I think I know what I was doing wrong...when you put the dough in the oven for 6 hrs is this at room temp or 95F? I thought last nights pie was really good despite the alcohol I smelt coming off the dough in the morning.  What flavors are associated with overfermented dough after it is baked, since I assume the alcohol would be all gone?  A couple things I've noticed and I don't think it can be stressed enough is to leave the pizza in the pan for at least 5minutes after it's out of the oven, and to take care not to spill any of the top liquid over the sides.  I had a few pizzas get some really soggy bottom crust as a result of taking out of the pan too early and letting some of those juices get underneath.  It's hard to resist the temptation of slicing it up and taking a bite, but it really has made a huge difference with the crispness of the bottom crust.

I do a 2hr oven ferment at 95 and 3hr room temp after that.  After removing from the pan I put on cardboard pizza insert and let sit another 5 minutes before cutting.  The cardboard soaks up all the grease and I never have wet bottoms anymore.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #265 on: March 25, 2015, 07:40:42 PM »
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?

Bob,

You may be on to something.  I smell a nice beerish flavor coming from the oven after doing a 6hr rise in the oven with the light on (sure smelled like alcohol to me).  I also used ADY instead of IDY, no semolina, and 50/50 mix of corn and olive oil.

Nate
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #266 on: March 25, 2015, 07:54:07 PM »
Holy crap is it a identical clone?  Crust smells of beer.

100% AP flour (190g)
20% oil (50/50 corn and olive)
46% water
1/2 tsp ADY
1/4 tsp salt
1/2 tsp sugar

6hr oven rise

Greased pan with butter flavored shortening.

Preheat stone to 500, baked for 27 mins at 450.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:01:50 AM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #267 on: March 25, 2015, 08:13:49 PM »
After some careful thinking I have made some changes to get closer to the flavor of Malnatis crust:

1.  The corn oil ratio needs to come down.  It overpowers the fermentation beer flavor we are all after.  50% corn oil was definitely better than 75%.

2.  It's better without the semolina (the extra crunch isn't needed if baked right and the flavor profile is different)

3.  A longer room temp rise definitely attributes to a more beerish flavor (thanks SDbob).  Even if it smells of alcohol before bake time you are on the right track.

I will do a 12hr room temp rise next to see if I can get more of that beer flavor that was in the pie I made tonight.

Nate
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 01:54:38 AM by pythonic »
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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #268 on: March 25, 2015, 09:58:29 PM »
After some careful thinking I have made some discoveries to get as close to the flavor of Malnatis crust:

1.  The corn oil ratio needs to come down.  It overpowers the fermentation flavor.   50% corn oil was definitely better than 75%.

2.  It's better without the semolina
3.  A longer room temp rise definitely attributes to a more beerish flavor (thanks SDbob).  Even if it smells of alcohol before bake time you are on the right track.

I will do a 12hr room temp rise next to see if I can get more of that beer flavor.

Nate


Interesting, I thought semolina was a given with your Malnati's recipes, what changed your mind?
Charles

Offline pythonic

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #269 on: March 25, 2015, 10:08:42 PM »

Interesting, I thought semolina was a given with your Malnati's recipes, what changed your mind?

Well the semolina came from BTB originally.  I just modified mine by taste and it was lower than his go to recipe.  Semolina was originally added I think to give more crunch to the crust.  The flavor is more important I think now.

Nate
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 01:55:29 AM by pythonic »
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #270 on: March 26, 2015, 09:39:33 AM »
RE: oil, I've always thought olive oil imparts a very strong flavor.  No sign of that here?  I wonder if you used straight vegetable oil or canola, if that would mellow it out the corn oil to the proper ratio. 

Offline pythonic

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #271 on: March 26, 2015, 12:23:54 PM »
RE: oil, I've always thought olive oil imparts a very strong flavor.  No sign of that here?  I wonder if you used straight vegetable oil or canola, if that would mellow it out the corn oil to the proper ratio.

It did a little but the beer flavor outweighed it.  I will do 50% corn and 50% vegetable for my next batch of dough and report back.
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