Burts/Pequods

[Chicago Bob]

So, I say that yes, it is "a" style of Chicago pizza - not a main style, just a notable variation:

Is it OK if I call it a variation of the Chicago deep dish pizza style?   

[vcb]

Is it OK if I call it a variation of the Chicago deep dish pizza style?   

I'm fine with that, but I think the concern some of us have is that a distinction be made that a style is or is not an authentic style.

i.e. - Pequod's is not authentic Chicago Deep Dish, but a very tasty and awesome modern variation.

[Chicago Bob]

i.e. - Pequod's is not authentic Chicago Deep Dish, but a very tasty and awesome modern variation.

I think that's what I just said   

[OTRChef]

Most everyone outside of Chicago has a distorted perception of what Chicago Deep Dish is and even more don't even know that we have thin crust.
That's one of the reasons why I started RealDeepDish.com
So, although I share your frustrations with the casual use of the term "Chicago Style",
we may disagree on minor semantics of pizza designation.

That's why I say that Pequod's is "A" style of Chicago pizza, but not "THE" style, as it is clearly not the authentic style of deep dish pizza created in 1943 at Pizzeria Uno, but was a later variation developed by Burt Katz at several of the Chicago area pizzerias that he ran over the years.

I have an article where I talk about the two main Chicago pizza styles that we all know - Deep Dish and Thin Crust.
http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/12-29-deep-dish-101-lesson-3-chicago-pizza-styles-and-maybe-a-dough-recipe

Anything beyond those two styles I consider a variation. Pequod's is a notable variation, but I agree that it does not "define" Chicago pizza.

I do bring up Stuffed as a legitimate 3rd main style, but I don't really talk about Pequod's on that article because :
A) The dough is thicker and more pillowy than a traditional deep dish .
B) Although Katz is from Chicago and developed his style here, I consider it a hybrid of more than one regional style (the jury is still out on the specific origins).
3) It's not yet a city-wide established style (aka - not every pizza joint in the city has tried to duplicate it yet)

So, if what you're saying is that Pequod's isn't a good example of authentic Chicago Style pizza, you are correct.
It's not the style that comes to mind when people say "Chicago Style".

If this style were created in any other city, I might have called it Chicago-inspired "pan pizza",
but Burt's own origins and his Chicago pizza history are just as relevant to the conversation.

So, I say that yes, it is "a" style of Chicago pizza - not a main style, just a notable variation:
The similarities: cheese on the bottom - sauce on the top - baked in a round pan.
The variations: a thicker, puffy, pillowy crust, caramelized cheese on the outer edge, a zestier, tomato sauce.

I think we agree on more than we disagree on. My only point was Burt has influenced his own style of pizza but has not influenced "Chicago Style" pizza in the least bit. The oldest pizzeria in Chicago is on the South side at 84th and Pulaski (originally on 80th and Halsted). Vito and Nicks has been serving "Chicago Style" thin cracker crust pizza since 1932. That's 11 years before Numero Uno and 38 years before Burt hit the seen with Pequods. To this day, Vito and Nicks does not serve thick crust pizza. They were on Diners Drivins and Dives:

<a href="http://youtu.be/1cCoOOrdj68" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/1cCoOOrdj68</a>

[AimlessRyan]

Most everyone outside of Chicago has a distorted perception of what Chicago Deep Dish is and even more don't even know that we have thin crust.

Having never eaten a thin crust pizza in Chicago, here's my take on why people outside Chicago don't realize there is a "Chicago style" thin crust: There's nothing that clearly differentiates "Chicago style" thin crust pizza from pizza you can get in other cities, states, or regions. When I look through Chicago thin crust threads, I see pictures of pizzas that look a lot like what I can get at most pizza joints in Columbus or Dayton, Ohio, as well as what I've heard may be common in Pittsburgh.

If I buy a pizza in Columbus or Dayton, am I buying a Chicago style pizza? Hell no. But I bet it's pretty similar. And have you ever heard of Columbus style pizza or Dayton style pizza? I doubt it. If you want to know why you've never heard of Columbus style pizza or Dayton style pizza, I'd say it's probably because there's not much that differentiates it from pizzas you can get in plenty of other places, such as Chicago. So maybe what you consider Chicago style thin crust pizza is actually Midwest style pizza.

However, if I go to Chicago and buy a deep dish pizza, I'm gonna be served a pizza I can get almost nowhere outside of Chicago. That's why people outside of Chicago don't know there is thin crust pizza in Chicago. That, and how we've been "educated" by Food Network, the Travel Channel, and Uno's Chicago Grill (or whatever the chain is called these days).

Like I said, I've never eaten a thin crust pizza in Chicago, so I may be wrong.

But based on what I know about the history of pizza in the United States, if I take a few seconds to try to figure out why Chicago thin crust is similar to Ohio thin crust, one of my first thoughts is that the two styles of pizza likely have the same origin (or share the same branch on pizza's family tree). If so, that origin is probably not in Chicago; it's probably somewhere east of Chicago.

So maybe to eliminate all the confusion, instead of lumping Chicago style thin crust and Chicago deep dish into the same category, there should be a new category called something like Midwest Style Thin Crust.

[vcb]

Having never eaten a thin crust pizza in Chicago, here's my take on why people outside Chicago don't realize there is a "Chicago style" thin crust: There's nothing that clearly differentiates "Chicago style" thin crust pizza from pizza you can get in other cities, states, or regions. When I look through Chicago thin crust threads, I see pictures of pizzas that look a lot like what I can get at most pizza joints in Columbus or Dayton, Ohio, as well as what I've heard may be common in Pittsburgh.

If I buy a pizza in Columbus or Dayton, am I buying a Chicago style pizza? Hell no. But I bet it's pretty similar. And have you ever heard of Columbus style pizza or Dayton style pizza? I doubt it. If you want to know why you've never heard of Columbus style pizza or Dayton style pizza, I'd say it's probably because there's not much that differentiates it from pizzas you can get in plenty of other places, such as Chicago. So maybe what you consider Chicago style thin crust pizza is actually Midwest style pizza.

However, if I go to Chicago and buy a deep dish pizza, I'm gonna be served a pizza I can get almost nowhere outside of Chicago. That's why people outside of Chicago don't know there is thin crust pizza in Chicago. That, and how we've been "educated" by Food Network, the Travel Channel, and Uno's Chicago Grill (or whatever the chain is called these days).

Like I said, I've never eaten a thin crust pizza in Chicago, so I may be wrong.

But based on what I know about the history of pizza in the United States, if I take a few seconds to try to figure out why Chicago thin crust is similar to Ohio thin crust, one of my first thoughts is that the two styles of pizza likely have the same origin (or share the same branch on pizza's family tree). If so, that origin is probably not in Chicago; it's probably somewhere east of Chicago.

So maybe to eliminate all the confusion, instead of lumping Chicago style thin crust and Chicago deep dish into the same category, there should be a new category called something like Midwest Style Thin Crust.

You're right on the money about Midwest-style thin crust, though I'd gamble there's a little more regional variation depending on which city is making it. For example, St. Louis makes a thin crust square-cut pizza that looks like Chicago thin crust, but I'm told that they don't use yeast and many use this cheesy abomination known as Provel.

From the faded memory of my college years, I remember Pizza Hut producing a thin & crispy, mid-western style pizza very similar to our Chicago thin crust, which I think they still serve nationwide. I'm sure toppings vary by location, and they never really got the italian sausage right.

I'd be very interested in learning the box-cut thin crust pizza's origin, but I imagine many mid-west cities will lay claim to it.
But that's for another forum thread. :-)

[Chicago Bob]

I understand what Ryan is saying. But once you've had Chicago style thin...you'll definitely recognize it outside of the area (throughout the Midwest as he stated).
I'm not so sure about the history part though ("it probably came from somewhere Eat of Chicago").I don't know the whole history about it. Chicago was once a major stockyard for the Country's meat market and I tend to want to think that may have had something to do with the "flavor" of Chitown thin. You often hear that the best way to experience Chicago thin is to order a sausage only pizza.....

[AimlessRyan]

From the faded memory of my college years, I remember Pizza Hut producing a thin & crispy, mid-western style pizza very similar to our Chicago thin crust, which I think they still serve nationwide. I'm sure toppings vary by location, and they never really got the italian sausage right.

I'd be very interested in learning the box-cut thin crust pizza's origin, but I imagine many mid-west cities will lay claim to it.

Thin & crispy is Pizza Hut's original pizza.

Pizza Hut started in Kansas, right? Maybe Wichita? My guess is that as pizza spread west from the Great Lakes region, its next progression was to become a little stiffer and more "cardboardy" (in St. Louis, perhaps?). From there, I'd imagine its evolution in Kansas made it even a little stiffer and more cardboardy.

(But I think they teach creationism in Kansas, so surely I'm wrong.)

[vcb]

To get us back on topic, here's a few pics of a test-quod I made a few days ago.

I actually used a deep dish dough modification I'm working on (yes, still tinkering with that thing), to which I added a 1/2 tsp of baking powder to see if I could get a little more rise out of the dough while baking. It worked a bit, but wasn't really the pillowy texture I was looking for, so I'm going to dig into the L&B Spumoni Gardens thread to see if I can get some hints for a new 'quod formulation.

I'm still tweaking the "pizza oven simulation" , but I think I'm getting closer.
You have to protect the toppings from burning while you try to get that cheese to char on the outside,
so I'm baking the pizza on a preheated stone on the bottom rack while using a sheet of aluminum foil covering the top rack.

[Chicago Bob]

That's coming along nicely Ed. Do you have a slice shot of the dough you are trying to get more rise out of?

[vcb]

That's coming along nicely Ed. Do you have a slice shot of the dough you are trying to get more rise out of?

Here's a side shot, though it's kinda hard to see the crust height because of all the cheese.

As I said, the baking powder worked, but the texture of the crust wasn't pillowy, like a pequod slice.
So my deep dish dough formulation may not close enough to make a minor mod.

They probably use more water, less oil, and knead the dough more, but that's just a guess.

[Chicago Bob]

That video from earlier went pretty fast at the kitchen part....any chance they proof the dough in the pan for a bit?

[Garvey]

Having never eaten a thin crust pizza in Chicago...

I see pictures of pizzas that look a lot like what I can get at most pizza joints in Columbus or Dayton, Ohio, as well as what I've heard may be common in Pittsburgh.

Except that those pizzas suck. 

Seriously, the sauce on a Chicago thin is different.  The sausage certainly is different.  The crust is even different.  These other rust-belt/Midwest thin crusts may have superficial similarities, but all of the Ohio pizzas I've ever had--in many, many places throughout the state--are terrible.

Nice trolling, tho', bro.  Why don't you try this over in the NY forum, and explain to everyone that there is no such thing as NY pizza, since you can get mall pizza calling itself NY just about anywhere. 

Cheers,
Garvey

   

[vcb]

That video from earlier went pretty fast at the kitchen part....any chance they proof the dough in the pan for a bit?

A very good possibility.

[Chicago Bob]

Except that those pizzas suck. 

Seriously, the sauce on a Chicago thin is different.  The sausage certainly is different.  The crust is even different.  These other rust-belt/Midwest thin crusts may have superficial similarities, but all of the Ohio pizzas I've ever had--in many, many places throughout the state--are terrible.

Nice trolling, tho', bro.  Why don't you try this over in the NY forum, and explain to everyone that there is no such thing as NY pizza, since you can get mall pizza calling itself NY just about anywhere. 

Cheers,
Garvey

   

 

[AimlessRyan]

Except that those pizzas suck. 

Seriously, the sauce on a Chicago thin is different.  The sausage certainly is different.  The crust is even different.  These other rust-belt/Midwest thin crusts may have superficial similarities, but all of the Ohio pizzas I've ever had--in many, many places throughout the state--are terrible.

Nice trolling, tho', bro.  Why don't you try this over in the NY forum, and explain to everyone that there is no such thing as NY pizza, since you can get mall pizza calling itself NY just about anywhere. 

Cheers,
Garvey

Man, you're an idiot. Should I explain why?

[AimlessRyan]

I have an article where I talk about the two main Chicago pizza styles that we all know - Deep Dish and Thin Crust.
http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/12-29-deep-dish-101-lesson-3-chicago-pizza-styles-and-maybe-a-dough-recipe

I just finished reading that. Nice work.

[OTRChef]

I understand what Ryan is saying. But once you've had Chicago style thin...you'll definitely recognize it outside of the area (throughout the Midwest as he stated).
I'm not so sure about the history part though ("it probably came from somewhere Eat of Chicago").I don't know the whole history about it. Chicago was once a major stockyard for the Country's meat market and I tend to want to think that may have had something to do with the "flavor" of Chitown thin. You often hear that the best way to experience Chicago thin is to order a sausage only pizza.....

You're probably quite correct. Many of the original thin crust pizza establishments were on the South side, nearest to the stockyards. Interestingly, the stockyards closed the same year Burt opened Pequods on the North Side.
A sausage only pizza is truly the best way to experience a Chicago thin crust pizza!

[PuRowdy]

Wow, wasn't trying to start a huge battle over the appropriate name for a type of pizza, my bad.

VCB - Looks like your pizza turned out great, very nice, hope you can continue to improve upon it.

I also tried making one after seeing the video I originally posted.  It was the best one I've made to date, which isn't saying much as this was only the 3rd deep dish I've made.  I used a Lou's recipe I found on this site for the base crust and wrapped the cheese up the sides of my pan.  I'm using a spring form pan as its the best thing I have right now.  Would be open to any recommendations on good pans.

Here are a couple of pics, I will take more of the preparation and sliced next time.

http://imgur.com/Cn6Z0
http://imgur.com/CU2EM

[Chicago Bob]

PuRowdy,
That there is what we call "lively debate" around here...you're good.
I like your "Bat" pizza....a lot of other nice look'in work in that link also...keep it up an thanks!