Author Topic: Burnt bottom?  (Read 2072 times)

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Offline Squirrelman

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Burnt bottom?
« on: April 22, 2010, 10:36:21 PM »
 So I tried out my terra cotta tiles Sunday and ironically the bottom of the crust cooked way too fast, when I used a regular (cheap) pizza stone I had issues with the cheese burning sometimes when trying to get the bottom crispy enough. So the terra cotta tiles seem to hold heat much better than my pizza stone did, I have to use them on the bottom of the oven though because the shelves curve up in the back of the oven so there's only enough room on the bottom. Strangely the bottom of the crust burnt in a ring with the center being mostly golden brown minus some specks of black and a ring around the burnt ring which was slightly white, which didn't make sense to me, I'm not sure why it had a burn ring like that rather than the whole bottom burning since the oven coils aren't at all ring shaped and pretty much cover the whole bottom of the oven. Other than the bottom burning and top crust being undercooked slightly I though this pizza was a improvement in many ways though. I'll post the recipe i used and pictures but I'm pretty much looking for ideas so my next one cooks more evenly, atm my only ideas are to cook it at a lower temperature which i'm not sure if that will help or hurt it, this time it was at 500 degrees with about a 1 hour heat up for the tiles. my other idea was since the tiles hold heat very long is to shut off the oven part way and turn the broiler on, but I'm not sure how well that will work or when to shut it off, with this pizza I think it was in the oven somewhere between 6 and 8 minutes but was fairly burnt on the bottom by then.

 anyway here's the recipe and pictures, I removed part of the following quote since it wasn't directly related to this recipe.

Another possibility is to use a poolish, which is another well known form of preferment. I did this recently in connection with the pizza shown at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,702.msg56174.html#msg56174. The pizza shown in that post was baked on a perforated dark anodized disk (no stone). The bottom of the crust was of the same color as the top of the crust. And the crust was chewy and crispy. In fact, I found it to be a bit too crispy. But the taste of “French bread” was definitely there. Because the dough formulation was experimental in nature and no doubt could be improved, I did not disclose the dough formulation. However, in case you are interested, even if for only its instructional value, it was the following one:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (168.5%):
262.88 g  |  9.27 oz | 0.58 lbs
170.87 g  |  6.03 oz | 0.38 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
4.6 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
2.63 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
442.96 g | 15.62 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Note: Nominal thickness factor is 0.10; pizza size is 14”; bowl residue compensation is 1.5%

For the dough using that formulation, I used all of the formula water, an equal amount of flour (by weight), and half of the yeast to make a classic poolish, which was then allowed to preferment for about 5 hours at room temperature. I then combined the poolish with the rest of the formula flour and the salt and oil and allowed the dough to ferment at room temperature for about 1 ˝ hours. I then punched the dough down, reshaped it into a ball again, and let it ferment for another 1 ˝ hours. Next time, I would be inclined to use some sugar, since the prefermentation of the poolish, with its 100% hydration (the weight of the poolish water divided by the weight of the poolish flour), can exhaust a fair amount of the natural sugars extracted from the flour by enzymatic performance.

There is no reason why the above dough formulations can’t be revised to produce any amount of dough that you would like to make, for any number and sizes of pizzas.

Peter



I added 1.5-1.75 tsps of sugar to the above recipe based on what Pete'zza recommended via pm after I asked him how much I should add. I used the entire dough recipe for a 16-17 inch pizza, not sure about the thickness but there's pictures for an idea.

kind of a side view of the upper and bottom crust color comparison.
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1308/dsc00996t.th.jpg)

whitish ring around the burnt area.
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9451/dsc00994c.th.jpg)

close up of how burnt some spots got while others were golden still and the top crust was undercooked.
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4656/dsc00993y.th.jpg)

bottom (doesn't look as exactly as I remember but still can see that its generally a ring around the center which is burnt.)
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3040/dsc00992n.th.jpg)

bottom center
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1307/dsc00991j.th.jpg)

done pizza - the top crust is whitish but this picture makes it look much whiter than it actually was.
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8430/dsc00989q.th.jpg)

done slice 1
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9381/dsc00998cy.th.jpg)

done slice 2
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3334/dsc00997u.th.jpg)


also Pete-zza if you happen to read this I was curious, for your recipe I know to do the initial fermentation you described, but would this recipe be better with several days of refrigerated fermentation as well or just over night refrigeration? if several days how many would you guess would be optimal? when I made these I believe I did the initial proofing and 1 night of refrigeration because I was short on time and wasn't sure if longer would have been better.

again since I have a bad habit of running on... the main question in this topic was how can I stop the bottom of my crust from burning and help the top crust cook more evenly with the bottom, moving the tiles up more in the oven isn't and option atm and may never be unless I can find flat oven racks, I am not even sure where you would find oven racks alone (never went looking for oven related stuff before).


oh on a side note has anyone ever mixed regular pizza sauce with fresh diced tomatoes? I've tried that a few times and I think I'm going to do it more often, the pizza sauce which is ragu in this case adds some even moisture and flavor while the diced tomatoes which I lightly seasoned and added some garlic too add a nice fresh refreshing burst of flavor imo. In this case I diced up most of a pint of grape/cherry tomatoes and tossed them over the sauce after I put it on, not sure how much sauce it was 2-4 spoons, normal household spoons I think they are probably like half a tablespoon each idk along with some mostly random seasonings since I'm kind of clueless on using seasonings except for maybe oregano lol.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 10:46:36 PM by Squirrelman »


Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 12:01:14 AM »
Hi Squirrelman
Tiles/stone on an oven floor with bottom heating element will get hotter (sometimes way hotter) vs being on a rack and similarly hotter than the actual oven air temp.  Assuming that is what burnt the bottom and you can't move the tiles, then you could try to move the pizza.  Bake on the tiles till the bottom is right, hit the broiler, then move the pie to the top rack to finish the top.  There are forum members that use this method, or a version of it, routinely. 
Lowering the temp would not help in this case since the differential in top vs bottom heat would not be improved.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 12:05:47 AM »
Hi Squirrelman
Tiles/stone on an oven floor with bottom heating element will get hotter (sometimes way hotter) vs being on a rack and similarly hotter than the actual oven air temp.  Assuming that is what burnt the bottom and you can't move the tiles, then you could try to move the pizza.  Bake on the tiles till the bottom is right, hit the broiler, then move the pie to the top rack to finish the top.  There are forum members that use this method, or a version of it, routinely. 
Lowering the temp would not help in this case since the differential in top vs bottom heat would not be improved.


Well said and I agree.  At our rental house with an older oven that heated from the bottom, a stone or pan or anything on the floor of the oven heats up very quickly and much much hotter than the oven itself.   I would either do what PH suggested, or have your stone on the lowest rack and then hit it with the broiler to finish the top. 

Offline tzoavva

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 07:18:25 AM »
question.  At what point/part of the recipe did you add the sugar.  Want to give this recipe a try possibly.

Joanna

Offline Squirrelman

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2010, 09:22:28 AM »
question.  At what point/part of the recipe did you add the sugar.  Want to give this recipe a try possibly.

Joanna

I added it straight to the poolish right at the beginning, I'm not sure if this was correct though. Pete'zza would be able to answer that better than me.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2010, 10:38:03 AM »
Squirrelman,

It appears that the other members have diagnosed your problem from an oven standpoint. Under the circumstances, the addition of the sugar perhaps didn't help because of the excessive bottom heat that would have made the bottom crust burn even more. The fact that you also made a 16"-17" pizza out an amount of dough intended to make a 14" pizza made the crust considerably thinner, and that may not have helped the situation either.

The dough formulation you used is the one that is described at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6588.msg56632.html#msg56632. That dough formulation is intended to make a same-day dough, not a cold fermented one. If a cold fermented dough is desired, the dough formulation would have to be reworked for such an application because the biochemistry of the dough is significantly changed. This is not something that can be easily done on paper so you would have to conduct one or more experiments to achieve the desired results. Also, normally, you would want to get your oven situation in order before attempting any changes. If sugar is to be part of the modified dough formulation, it would be added as part of the final mix, not as part of the preferment.

For a cold fermented dough using a preferment, such as a poolish, you might want to take a look at the dough formulation at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226. The preparation instructions that apply to that dough formulation are given in Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. I don't have any tools that can be easily used to convert from a 16" pizza size to another size, so you would have to get your calculator out and rework all of the numbers for the size you are after. If the dough formulation has any interest to you, you will perhaps want to get your oven situation corrected first. Otherwise, you are unlikely to get the desired results.

Peter

Offline Squirrelman

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2010, 05:19:28 PM »
Squirrelman,

It appears that the other members have diagnosed your problem from an oven standpoint. Under the circumstances, the addition of the sugar perhaps didn't help because of the excessive bottom heat that would have made the bottom crust burn even more. The fact that you also made a 16"-17" pizza out an amount of dough intended to make a 14" pizza made the crust considerably thinner, and that may not have helped the situation either.

The dough formulation you used is the one that is described at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6588.msg56632.html#msg56632. That dough formulation is intended to make a same-day dough, not a cold fermented one. If a cold fermented dough is desired, the dough formulation would have to be reworked for such an application because the biochemistry of the dough is significantly changed. This is not something that can be easily done on paper so you would have to conduct one or more experiments to achieve the desired results. Also, normally, you would want to get your oven situation in order before attempting any changes. If sugar is to be part of the modified dough formulation, it would be added as part of the final mix, not as part of the preferment.

For a cold fermented dough using a preferment, such as a poolish, you might want to take a look at the dough formulation at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226. The preparation instructions that apply to that dough formulation are given in Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. I don't have any tools that can be easily used to convert from a 16" pizza size to another size, so you would have to get your calculator out and rework all of the numbers for the size you are after. If the dough formulation has any interest to you, you will perhaps want to get your oven situation corrected first. Otherwise, you are unlikely to get the desired results.

Peter



ah I had though about that more after posting and had figured I had put it in at the wrong time. as for the 14 inch dough vs my 16-17 my mind must have been wandering while I was reading the recipe, although I guess that's good news, maybe it will come out even better next time! as long as I stop it from burning again of course. as for resizing the dough so its correct next time I believe my math is right (scaled to an 18 inch) but I tend to make stupid mistakes here and there so if anyone would care to double check me I would be thankful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
area of 18 inch circle(pie)= ~254.47
area of 14 inch circle(pie)= ~153.94

153.94x = 254.47
x = 253.47 / 153.94
x = 1.65

so original recipe multiplied by 1.65 is:
--------------------
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):               433.75   g                                             
Water (65%):                                            281.94  g                                                           
IDY (0.75%):                                             3.25  g
Salt (1.75%):                                            7.59  g
Oil (1%):                                                   4.34   g
Sugar:                                                    ~2.25-2.5  tsp
Total (168.5%):                                      ~730.88   g

of course these numbers would be rounded some in the final recipe, especially since my scale measures in increments of 2 grams unfortunately, eventually I need to find one that measures to smaller numbers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

although I wonder if I should reduce it to 17 inches, using a 18x18 square cooking area I should be able to get it off the peel ok but I would have to make sure not to overstretch it and be extra careful getting it off the peel. what do you think? would using the entire space be to hard to get the pizza on?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 05:40:30 PM by Squirrelman »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2010, 06:31:28 PM »
Squirrelman,

The much easier way to do it is to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, using a nominal thickness factor of 0.10, the same baker's percent as used before (but adding 2% sugar), a pizza size of 18", and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (170.5%):
429.47 g  |  15.15 oz | 0.95 lbs
279.15 g  |  9.85 oz | 0.62 lbs
3.22 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
7.52 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
4.29 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
8.59 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.15 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
732.24 g | 25.83 oz | 1.61 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.10; pizza size = 18"; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I agree with you that a 17" pizza might be a bit easier to handle by giving you that extra inch. In that case, the dough formulation looks like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (170.5%):
383.07 g  |  13.51 oz | 0.84 lbs
249 g  |  8.78 oz | 0.55 lbs
2.87 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
6.7 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
3.83 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
7.66 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.92 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
653.14 g | 23.04 oz | 1.44 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.10; pizza size = 17"; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

BTW, there is also an easier way than you used to scale up the pizza size from 14" to, say, 17". The multiplier is 8.52/72 = 1.475. The multiplier for an 18" pizza is 92/72 = 1.653. In both examples, the Pi parts cancel out.

There is no need for you to use a digital scale to measure out the weights of the lesser ingredients like salt, yeast, oil and sugar. You should use the volume measurements for those ingredients. However, you should weigh out the flour and water.

Peter




Offline Squirrelman

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Re: Burnt bottom?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2010, 06:40:04 PM »
Squirrelman,

The much easier way to do it is to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, using a nominal thickness factor of 0.10, the same baker's percent as used before (but adding 2% sugar), a pizza size of 18", and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (170.5%):
429.47 g  |  15.15 oz | 0.95 lbs
279.15 g  |  9.85 oz | 0.62 lbs
3.22 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
7.52 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
4.29 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
8.59 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.15 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
732.24 g | 25.83 oz | 1.61 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.10; pizza size = 18"; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I agree with you that a 17" pizza might be a bit easier to handle by giving you that extra inch. In that case, the dough formulation looks like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (170.5%):
383.07 g  |  13.51 oz | 0.84 lbs
249 g  |  8.78 oz | 0.55 lbs
2.87 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
6.7 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
3.83 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
7.66 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.92 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
653.14 g | 23.04 oz | 1.44 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.10; pizza size = 17"; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

BTW, there is also an easier way than you used to scale up the pizza size from 14" to, say, 17". The multiplier is 8.52/72 = 1.475. The multiplier for an 18" pizza is 92/72 = 1.653. In both examples, the Pi parts cancel out.

There is no need for you to use a digital scale to measure out the weights of the lesser ingredients like salt, yeast, oil and sugar. You should use the volume measurements for those ingredients. However, you should weigh out the flour and water.

Peter






I had forgotten about the dough calculator, thanks again. I'll post the results of my next attempt this weekend if I'm not busy.