New York Doh

[gfgman]

Here's something I've been pondering the last few days.  I made my dough according to the lehmann calculator, which led me to using less yeast than I would normally use.  I did the cold ferment over night in the fridge.  Even in the fridge the dough rose some.  After removal from the fridge the dough rose some more.  Now, when I go to some of the local pizza shops, when they pull their dough out to use it, they drop it in some flour and turn it onto their board.  It doesn't appear to have much of any rise to it.  It looks soft, but dense at the same time.  What's going on with the difference between their dough and mine?  Also, what do I do about the the bottom of the dough sticking to the container, or do I do nothing, just let it go?  Again, the dough at the pizza shop doesn't appear to have that problem.  They press it into a nice circle, turn it with their hand a few times to develop the outside edge, and then pick it up and stretch it.  It's almost dry but silky at the same time and spreads real evenly.  Sorry I'm rambling a bit, but that's where I'm trying to get to; a New York style dough that is the equivalent of what they are using in the local shops in my area.  You know, the kind where they stretch it out with their fists, and you can see their fist through the dough, but it stretches evenly and never breaks.

GMan 

[Pete-zza]

GMan,

The biggest difference is the dough quality. If you are using a standard home mixer, like a KitchenAid stand mixer, you will not get the same quality dough that a pizza operator will get using a commercial mixer, like a Hobart mixer. Their dough balls will have a better developed gluten structure with better gas retention, handling and shaping characteristics. They also use commercial plastic dough boxes that are held in a commercial cooler that operates several degrees lower than your home refrigerator. Unlike a home refrigerator, where the door is typically opened several times a day, the cooler usually gets much less traffic, so the dough balls aren't subject to temperature swings. In fact, some pizza operators make their dough balls at night, usually at the end of the work day, so that the coolers get almost no traffic until the next day.

You might think that you are using less yeast than professionals based on what you have observed, but if you are using a basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, that formulation is one that was developed for pizza operators, not home hobbyists. Of course, it is still possible that pizza operators are using more yeast (it could be even less) than you are, but that doesn't diminish the value of the dough formulation you are using.

I suspect that the pizza operators don't have the sticking problem you have because of the plastic dough boxes they use. Usually, they use dough scrapers to lift the dough balls out of the dough boxes, or a special tool that is designed for the same purpose. In your case, if the dough balls are sticking to the bottom of your containers, the obvious solution is to oil the containers before placing the dough ball into them. Or oil the entire dough balls before placing them into their containers.

Peter

[gfgman]

yeah, I've seen the dough scrapers in action.  When they turn it onto the board, if the side that was up in the dough box is still up, then you don't see what the other side looks like, and how sticking occurred if any.  It would seem tha if there were any sticking, you would see it when they stretch the dough out, but perhaps not.  I might try a plastic bowl, as opposed to metal or glass.  When flour or oil is used, it seems to ultimately be absorbed into the dough when using metal or glass, and you still get the sticking. 
I keep the fridge just above the freezing point for the purpose of keeping milk and other stuff longer, and we're generally out all day at work, but even still I agree that it is not the same as a commercial cooler. 
I'm mainly curious if the commercial dough rises in the same manner as the home dough, and if not why that is.  Temperature, flour, gluten structure, or what?
I've been to a place that uses a commercial mixer, but they must use a different recipe.  Their crust is not the typical NY crust.  It's best described as a chewy cracker.  Definitely more homemade or rustic than you would expect from a commercial pizza joint.

GMan

[Pete-zza]

GMan,

I have never been in a position to study the effects of storing a lot of dough balls (several stacked dough boxes) in a commercial cooler but I would think that if commercially made dough balls are of better physical quality than those made in a home mixer they should perform better biochemically while in the cooler than our dough balls stored in our ordinary refrigerators.

FYI, to give you an idea as to how dough might be prepared and managed in a typical commercial setting, I have reproduced below a document that was sent to me last December by Tom Lehmann.

1. Determine water temperature needed to give a finished (mixed) dough temperature of 80 to 85F. With a room temperature of 70 to 75F, this will typically require a water temperature of 65F using a planetary mixer.
2. Add the water to the mixing bowl.
3. Add salt and sugar (if used) to the water. Do not stir in.
4. Add the flour and then add the yeast.
5. Mix for two minutes in low speed, add the oil and mix for one more minute in low speed.
6. Then mix for 8 to 10 minutes at second (medium) speed or first speed for approximately 15 minutes. The idea is to mix the dough just until it takes on a smooth appearance.
7, Check the finished dough temperature (it should be in the 80 to 85F range).
8. Take the dough directly to the bench for scaling and rounding/balling.
9. The dough should be cut and balled within a 20-minute time period.
10. As soon as the dough is formed into balls, place in plastic dough boxes and wipe the top of the dough balls with salad oil.
11. Immediately take the dough boxes to the cooler and cross stack them.
12. Allow the dough boxes to remain cross stacked in the cooler for 2 hours, then down stack and nest the dough boxes.
13. The dough will be ready to use after 16 hours in the cooler.
14. To use the dough, remove about a 3-hour supply of dough from the cooler, leave it in the covered dough boxes and allow it to temper AT room temperature for 60 to 90-minutes, then begin shaping the dough into pizza skins for immediate use.
15. The dough will remain good to use for up to 3 hours after you first begin using it.
16. Any dough remaining in the cooler will keep for up to 3 days.

Peter

[JConk007]

So do they use a sheeter for the cracker style you speak of GF?
J

[gfgman]

So do they use a sheeter for the cracker style you speak of GF?
J

Not sure what you mean by a sheeter.  They use a commercial mixer to mix.  I've watched them put dry ingredients in the mixer first and mix awhile, then the rest I would assume.  Then the guy kneads pieces of the dough with his hands and shapes them into balls.  They bake the pizzas in a regular commercial pizza oven.  The combination of what's in the dough and how it's made gives it a more cracker like texture, at least on the outside.  It's not a good NY style with nice browning, and that classic NY style texture.  It's more of a homemade texture.  It's not bad for what they do with it.  Their sauce isn't classic NY style either.  It tastes more along the lines of what you'll get with a prepackaged grocery store pizza.  When you're in the mood for cheap pizza that's different, they've got you covered. 
I'm not looking for that as my everyday pie. 

GMan