Author Topic: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...  (Read 4360 times)

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Offline Weborific

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Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« on: February 15, 2009, 10:28:43 PM »
Hi, all!  I started making pizza 2 years ago.  Only done it 3 times so far.  Iíve found this site a few months ago and have tweaked my recipe and methods thanks to you guys!  The most notable change was letting the yeast keep overnight.  I found this gave much more flavor and made the dough more workable.  This is my first post and have a few questions Iíd love to have answered please.  Iím trying to make a cracker-style crust.


Ingredients (makes 12 pizzas):
-   21 cups all-purpose flour
-   9 cups water
-   6 tsp salt
-   3 tsp sugar
-   80 g  (or 2.82 oz) yeast

Questions:
1)   I proportionately increased the ingredient quantities.  Is this too much yeast?  If I put less, wonít it affect the taste?  Will too much yeast make the dough too tough and tear easily?
2)   If storing dough overnight, should it be refrigerated or not?  Iím reading both refrigerated and room temp.  I left my dough in several bowls in the fridge (which I thought would retard growth) but the dough still grew.
3)   I dock the dough with a fork.  When I bake the skins alone for a few minutes, the dough becomes a football.  Will a dough docker solve this problem?
4)   I use AP flour.  I never found hi-protein flour until today at Loblaws in a separate section from the AP flour.  I think this flour was around 60% protein.  Will mixing in a bit of this with the AP flour create a more cracker-like crust?
5)   What do you guys mean by laminating?  Is this rolling the dough flat then folding it over onto itself and rolling again?
6)   How thin should I roll to get it cracker-like?  I rolled it to about 0.1Ē or just under 1/8Ē.  The dough was amazing, but not cracker-like.  More pita-like.  Nobody complained!  Is it because I added too much yeast?
7)   I notice I add more water than you guys.  I just donít see how you get away with so little water.  I find the dough very tough and un-workable.  Am I doing something wrong?

Notes: All dough work done by hand, no mixer, convection oven, 500 degrees, pans have holes in them, skins are pre-baked a few minutes, I love you guys!

You guys have been making me hungry the past few months!  I hope my pics do the same to you!  REVENGE!!


Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 10:45:06 PM »
Here's a few more pics.
Yeah, that's right....TWO layers of mozarella!!
Yeah, that's right....TWO types of pepperoni!!
hahaha!

BTW, The last time I made pizza (last weekend) I added bacon bits and OMG it was amazing!  It came in a small bag, pre-cooked, small bits of bacon.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 11:29:51 PM »
Weborific,

The problem is with the recipe. It will not produce a cracker-style crust. The reason is that there is far too much water in relation to the amount of flour. I don't know how you measure out the flour, but I estimate that the hydration of your dough (the weight of flour divided by the weight of the water) is somewhere between 65-78%. Most cracker-style doughs use a hydration in the mid-30s% up to about 45%. You are also using a fair amount of yeast (I estimate between 2.5-3%), which is considerably more than needed for a cracker-style dough. In your case, with the amount of water and yeast you are using, the dough will ferment very quickly, even while in the refrigerator, and if you try to bake a skin with your dough, even if you dock it with a fork or dough docker, it will balloon up, just as you experienced.

My best advice to you is to abandon your recipe and use one that is designed to produce a cracker-style crust. I don't know what threads and posts on the cracker-style pizza you have read, but I suggest that you read the following thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html. Most of the dough formulations given in that thread require using a machine of some sort, either a stand mixer or a food processor, but I have also described how to make a cracker-style dough by hand. To the best of my knowledge, there is no other thread on the forum that shows how to do that successfully.

You will also need to have a digital scale to practice most of the dough formulations set forth in the abovereferenced theread unless you chose to use the recipe recited with volume measurements at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php. That is the recipe on which I and other members based our work at the abovereferenced thread.

You can use all-purpose flour for the cracker-style pizza, as I demonstrated in the abovereferenced thread, but I personally prefer using bread flour. From your mention of Loblaws, it sounds like you are in Canada. If so, I think you should be able to use a Five Roses or Robin Hood bread flour. What you found in the supermarket appears to be vital wheat gluten (VWG). You can use that to supplement the all-purpose flour to raise the total protein content, but that would be an option that I would use only if bread flour is unavailable. If you chose to go the VWG route, I should be able to help you determine how much to use for whatever all-purpose flour you decide to use.

It is possible to make cracker-style pizzas using dough that has been fermented at room temperature or in the refrigerator. However, you want to use a dough formulation that is specially formulated for the type of fermentation to be used.

You don't need a dough docker to dock a dough skin to be used to make a cracker-style crust. However, if you plan to make many cracker-style pizzas, I personally would invest in one because it works a lot faster in docking skins than a fork.

The role of yeast in a cracker-style dough and dough thickness considerations are both described in the abovereferenced thread.

Laminating entails either superimposing multiple dough skins on top of each other and rolling the assembly or folding a skin onto itself and rolling it out. Some members prefer laminating a dough but I have not used that method for the cracker-style crusts.

Once you have had a chance to investigate my recommendations, feel free to ask questions. There are several of us who have a fair amount of experience with the cracker style.

Peter

Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 11:46:32 PM »
Thanks, Pete!  I have read some of your past posts.  It's just hard to jump-in and know what everyone is talking about at times.  I will read the link you provided tomorrow.  I understand that I'm using too much water.  I hope I read tomorrow why you guys can get away with it.  Let me say that even with all the water I added, it isn't very easy to roll.  I just watched a video online and the guy had no trouble flattening the dough with a roller.  I seem to have to fight a bit more with it...
Yes, I am in Canada.  The AP flour I use is 14% protein.  I have looked at ALL the flour brands available here and can't seem to find any higher percentage until I found that 60% (I think it was 63-64%) brand.  OK, I'm off to bed.  Thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to reply!  I really do appreciate it!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 11:57:33 PM »
Weborific,

You will find the answer to the issue of rolling out the dough at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138. However, you may find it useful to read the posts that led up to the solution.

Peter

Offline JConk007

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 07:52:39 AM »
As Peter mentioned  hydration is very low with this dough. Look how dry this dough is I know its seems weird when I did it , if it was not for the pictures I studied here on the forum. I would not even believe it would make pizza I love this crust and recipe! My Daughter can roll this dough out so I know you can get it  :)  Check this thread my 1st attempt at the DKM recipe  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7592.0.html  shows how dry and thin this crust really is.  YUM
Also if you really want the cracker, consider getting yourself some of the cutter pans or heavier Gage, darker pans to absorb and transfer heat to your crust, they work best for this recipe. Others do it on stone or screen but I find these pans are the magic touch. I have never tried the type of pan you are using so I can not comment on that. With this dough you "work" it as round as possible by hand then rollout to as cloose to a circlle as you can get, then trim the excess, no tossing here.  I like to toss and work the skin into shape by hand, but thats  for my local NY style not this type.
Go direct with the DKM recipe on the home page and see How you make out.
Have Fun.
John
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 08:09:04 AM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 03:20:18 PM »
Hi, guys!  Youíve given me sooo much to read!  Iíve actually already read a good chunk of it previously.  However, most of it went over my head as I was still learning techniques, tools, acronyms, etc.
Pete, you mention that you wrote how to make the cracker-style dough without the use of a mixer.  Iím having trouble locating that info.  If you could please send me a link, Iíd appreciate it!  As it seems to me (so far), a mixer is by far the best rout to take.  Hereís a pic of my wifeís mixer.  She used it last night.  The bowl isnít very big, so itíd only be good for 1 or 2 skins.  I like to make a LOT of pizza when I make it due to all the work involved.  So I donít know if Iíll use the mixer.  I may try 1 or 2 this week out of curiosityÖ  Peter, you mentioned a solution about rolling the dough being easier when warm.  My dough was almost room temp when I rolled it.  Would anybody recommend maybe putting it in the oven at (I dunno) say 90 degrees for a bit before rolling?


Jconk007, I had seen your link previously.  I canít believe your daughter can roll the dough!  I get a real good workout!  I canít believe how thin you get it! 
And no, I donít toss the dough in the airÖIím Italian, so I was just posing for pics!  Making it look more authentic!
Iím afraid I wonít be buying any new pans (mine are new) or a docker or pizza stone as I recently lost my job.  Tough times!  Iíll make due with what I have.

Thank you both for your posts!  I may try this again this week.  I will reduce water and yeast quantities, measure by WEIGHT instead of volume and finally try the mixer.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 03:33:02 PM »
Sounds good. Sorry about the job loss. If its any consolation, read the February Lees is More thread and you will see how affordable pizza is.
I am not allowed to buy any more pizza pans/ devices either (that she knows about  >:D ) lets see if shes really paying attention. Oh and yes put it in at 100 degrees but watch it. I have done that in the past. Keep trying you will have it in no time the way you want.
John

« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 07:14:14 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 03:50:20 PM »
Thanks, John!
Pizza isn't affordable the way I make it!  hahahaha!  Gotta cut-back on the toppings!

I'll post any new updates if I get a chance to give it another shot in the next few weeks.  Until then, I've got more reading to do.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 04:49:44 PM »
Weborific,

Here are the links to posts that discuss the hand kneading approach for the cracker-style dough: Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49722.html#msg49722, and Replies 126-128 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53174.html#msg53174

I have used both a stand mixer and food processor to make cracker-style doughs and, as between the stand mixer and food processor, I believe that the food processor does a better job in making the cracker-style dough. However, in the thread I originally referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html, I describe how to use both machines for the cracker-style dough.

As for warming the dough to make it easier to roll out, it doesn't really matter what mechanism you use to warm up the dough so long as the temperature is high enough, as I noted in the basic thread referenced above. But a dough at room temperature will not be enough, unless, of course, your kitchen is somewhere between 100-120 degrees F ;D.

Peter


Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 09:48:18 PM »
Peter, you are a pizza-knowledge-well!  Thank you again for all the info you have provided.  I hope to finish reading it all sometime this week and maybe try the cracker style "FOR REAL" at some point next week.  I just have 1 question I'm hoping to get answered by anyone...  Again, concerning the yeast.  Are ALL ingredients (including the yeast) just multiplied if making many skins?  I usually make 10-12 pizzas at a time.  Do I maintain the mentioned percentage of yeast or should I put less?  Thanks again!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 10:35:20 PM »
Weborific,

I have seen instances where ingredients like yeast aren't linear as the dough batch size increases but I adjust all ingredients linearly, which is the most common approach. In fact, if you look at the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, you will see an entry that asks for the number of dough balls. Entering 10 or 12 in that entry box will multiply everything by 10 or 12. If you need help when you get to the point of using a particular dough formulation, let me know.

Peter

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 11:32:46 PM »
Here's a few more pics.
Yeah, that's right....TWO layers of mozarella!!
Yeah, that's right....TWO types of pepperoni!!
hahaha!

I don't know anything about cracker crusts, but when it comes to toppings I like the way you think, Weborific...Did you grow up in Montreal (or elsewhere in Quebec) or Ottawa by any chance ? (The reason I ask is because the subject of placing pepperoni underneath a layer of cheese, and in which regions people do this, came up in a discussion earlier today).

-JLP
Scarsu d'ogghiu, e riccu di provolazzu ::)

Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 09:18:28 AM »
I don't know anything about cracker crusts, but when it comes to toppings I like the way you think, Weborific...Did you grow up in Montreal (or elsewhere in Quebec) or Ottawa by any chance ? (The reason I ask is because the subject of placing pepperoni underneath a layer of cheese, and in which regions people do this, came up in a discussion earlier today).

-JLP

Umm, yeah.  I'm from Montreal...  Pretty creepy that you guessed that acually!! hahaha
Should I be looking over my shoulders?

The reasoning behind the way I place toppings comes from when I ordered a thin-crust pizza from Domino's.  I ordered only pepperoni and cheese.  The cheese was under the pepperoni.  I just found that the pepperoni tasted great baked and saw no point in putting the cheese on top.  The cheese will melt no matter where you put it, so I put pepperoni on top and sprinkled a little more cheese just to hold everything in place.  This Domino's (and Pizzadelic) thin crust pizza is a major reason behind why I began making pizza myself.  My mom is famous for her pizza in our family.  It's always a welcomed event when she makes it.  But talk to her about cracker crust??  FUHGETABOUTIT!  Mamma don't like change!  So I decided to experiment.  This is where you Pizza-holics (lookin' at you, Pete!) come in.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 10:14:06 AM »
Weborific,

As you will see at http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/ingredients.jsp (you will have to click on CRUNCHY THIN CRUST), one of the ingredients that Domino's uses in the U.S. to impart a certain flavor to their thin crusted pizza is sodium bicarbonate, or baking soda. If that is a flavor that you like, you might also take a look at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg43956.html#msg43956, where I discussed the use of baking soda for a cracker style crust. The recipe I used calls for a fairly high hydration but I believe that it should be possible to modify the DKM cracker style dough recipe with its much lower hydration to use baking soda. In the Domino's ingredients list for its thin crust pizza, the sodium acid pyrophosphate and monocalcium phosphate are chemical leavening agents used in baked goods to get them to rise. According to wikipedia, the monocalcium phosphate is acidic in nature and provides a better balance towards the other common leavening agent, baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), that is alkalic in nature. This apparently adjusts the pH of the final end product. I do not have the above leavening agents in my cupboard, only baking soda.

FYI, in the U.S., a Domino's thin crust pizza looks as shown in Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48331.html#msg48331. (The photo of the whole pizza was taken in the front seat of my car outside of the Domino's shop, hence the light and shadows.)

Peter

Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 09:07:19 PM »
Dude....you took a picture of the pizza in your car??  YOU, SIR...ARE A PIZZA-HOLIC!  AND I LOVE IT!  ;D
It looks the same here in Canada except they cut it into squares (cut grid-style). 
I can't tell you how many Friday nights I'd order that same pizza and rent a movie....  Good times...

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2009, 09:10:27 PM »
Dude....you took a picture of the pizza in your car?? 

Weborific,

I wanted the photo to be of the pizza right after it came out of the oven, just as I take photos of my own pizzas at home. I could have elected the grid cut but chose the slice option, which is what I use for my pizzas.

Peter

Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2009, 09:32:01 PM »
I just found it funny, that's all.  By no means did I mean it in a bad way.   ;D  I was just laughing picturing people walking on the sidewalk and watching some guy sitting in his car taking pictures of a pizza!
"Yeah, that's it!  Show me love, anger, happiness, yes, yes, YES!!"
hahaha


Val

Offline Weborific

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I caved-in....
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 01:12:25 PM »
ok, so I hadn't ordered Domino's in a while and had a craving.  I took pics as Pete did.  This is the Canadian version which looks the same as the US version.  Toppings are: cheese, pepperoni, extra pepperoni, bacon.  ENJOY!

Offline Weborific

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Re: Stop making me hungry! First timer needs tips...
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2009, 01:13:02 PM »
pic 2