Pizza Frenzy - Tripple Try

[PizzaManic]

Hi All

Tonight I am planning to attempt the following pizza's. Referenced with each pizza is the Dough Formulation in respect to each size as well as a link to the method I propose to use.

1) Pappa Johns Clone ( 10 Inches) - ( http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7551.msg67260.html#msg67260 )

Flour (100%): Water (56.5%): IDY (0.28%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%): Sugar (4.2%): Total (170.03%):

181.33 g  |  6.4 oz | 0.4 lbs 102.45 g  |  3.61 oz | 0.23 lbs 0.51 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp 3.17 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp 13.24 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.91 tsp | 0.97 tbsp 7.62 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.91 tsp | 0.64 tbsp 308.31 g | 10.88 oz | 0.68 lbs | TF = 0.1384663

** The flour/VWG blend would be 178.4654 g Flour + 2.8646 g VWG (1.14 tsp)

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2) Little Caesars Dough (9.26 Inches) - ( http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1515.msg68137.html#msg68137 )

Flour (100%): Water (59.6%): IDY (0.93%): Salt (01.86%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.11%): Sugar (5.28%): Total (170.78%):

144.11 g  |  5.08 oz | 0.32 lbs 85.89 g  |  3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs 1.34 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp 4.48 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 7.61 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.91 tsp | 0.64 tbsp 246.11 g | 8.68 oz | 0.54 lbs | TF = 0.128905

** The flour/VWG blend would be 138.4185 g Flour + 5.6915 g VWG (2.27 tsp)

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3) DKM Cracker Style (10 Inches) - ( http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909)

Flour (100%): Water (60%): IDY (1%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%): Sugar (1.2%): Total (167.45%):

128.87 g  |  4.55 oz | 0.28 lbs 77.32 g  |  2.73 oz | 0.17 lbs 1.29 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp 2.26 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 215.79 g | 7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs | TF = 0.0969132

** The flour/VWG blend would be 123.7803 g Flour + 5.0897 g VWG (2.03 tsp)

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To obtain the correct dough formulation for the above pizza's I used the Dough Calculating Tool.
The Pappa Johns Pizza would be made with bread flour (11.7% Protein) + VWG to bring the total protein level up to 12.7%, same amount as what KABF has.
The little Caesars and DKM Cracker would be made with the same flour but the protein level would be upped to 14.2%, the same amount that's in High Gluten Flour.

I have a Stand Mixer so I guess the process would be fairly simple and probably quite difficult to make a real mess of.

I plan on pre-baking each pizza. How long does each pizza need to be baked for and what signs do I need to look out for to ensure that each of the above pizza's are correctly pre-baked as well as let me know the approximate time each pizza needs in the final bake. Also note that I will be using a Pizza Stone for each pizza.
NB: The preferred oven temp I like to use is 220 Degrees C.

With regards to the DKM Cracker Style, I don't have a plastic container like the one you use. I was wondering if placing the pizza in a dish and tightly sealing it with plastic wrap would be fine.
I also notice that you mention placing a foil over the exposed side of the dough after oiling it and then turning the dough over thereafter oiling the other now exposed side. Do I place the pizza with the foil into the oven to pre-bake.
Lastly must I roll out the pizza on a floured surface and must the flour I use be similar to the dustinator or just normal flour.

I guess that's all I require for now. If there is anything else you feel I need to look out for to avoid any mishaps, feel free to advise.

Regards
PizzaManic

[Pete-zza]

PizzaManic,

As I believe you are aware, of the three dough formulations you posted only the cracker-style dough is intended to be baked on a pizza stone. The Papa John's and Little Caesar's doughs are intended to be baked on screens, as they are in the PJ and LC stores using conveyor ovens. The reason for using screens is that the PJ and LC doughs contain a lot of sugar, which can lead to premature browning or even blackening of the bottom crusts if baked directly on a pizza stone. So, that is something that you will want to watch for even with your pizza stone preheated to 220 degrees C (about 428 degrees F). Also, if you plan to pre-bake the crusts, you will want to be on the lookout for bubbles forming in the doughs during pre-baking and be prepared to puncture them as they are formed with a sharp-tipped knife, or skewer, or something equivalent. To keep the crusts from ballooning up like a pita bread, especially the LC skin because of its relatively high hydration and high yeast content, you may want to dock the skins with a dough docker of fork before pre-baking.

It is difficult to tell you how long and at what temperature you should pre-bake the crusts. I have not used pre-baking before with the PJ or LC clones, only for the cracker-style dough using the recipe you posted. Also, different ovens can behave differently. However, Tom Lehmann oftens recommends that dough skins be pre-baked for about 4 minutes at about 385-400 degrees F (about 196-204 degrees C). These are not hard and fast numbers, so some experimentation on your part with your particular oven may be required. Usually, you want to remove the pre-baked crusts from the oven when they just start to take on color.

In dressing the pre-baked crusts and finishing the bake, you will still have to be on the alert for excessive bottom crust browning. If you had pizza screens or disks, you could slip them under the pizzas to slow down the bottom crust browning. Otherwise, you may have to take the pizzas off of the stone and raise them to a higher oven rack position to finish the bake.

To answer your question about the cracker-style crust, it should be baked on the aluminum foil directly on the pizza stone. You should also be sure to dock the skin before pre-baking. In rolling out the dough for the cracker-style pizza, you may not need much bench flour. I would use only regular bread flour, not a Dustinator clone. As for the container question, yes, you can use a bowl or any other container. 

As you can see, changing the rules as you propose to do can lead to a whole new set of issues to deal with and increase the potential error rate. So, you want to be on your toes at all times in implementing the changes.

I look forward to your results.

Peter

[November]

Peter,

Little Caesar's doughs are intended to be baked on screens, as they are in the PJ and LC stores using conveyor ovens.

Little Caesar's doesn't bake on screens.  They use pans, coated with either cornmeal or oil.

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

November,

Thanks for the correction. I knew that they used cornmeal but forgot that they used it in pans. I also forgot that I used a cutter pan when I made the LC clone pizza.

Peter

[November]

I also forgot that I used a cutter pan when I made the LC clone pizza.

While I don't have a cutter pan like Peter's, I do have a pan with a 0.5" tall rim.  The difference between baking in a LC appropriate pan and my 0.5" pan is noticeable.  If someone is truly engaged in reproducing LC pizza, I would say it's necessary to use a deep dish pan like these:

http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Metallic-Professional-Deep-Pizza/dp/B0000VLGYI/
http://www.akitchen.com/store/product221.html

[JConk007]

Only tried that LC once ?  You are showing the deep dish pan right November? Dont they make a thin crust as well as deep dish? I'll check the website. I do remember they used a big round multi deck oven in Arizona, where I last tried it All I remember is it tasted like cardboard? Not cracker cardboard just dry? Tastless topping and not enough sauce Nothing like Pj's.
Are you planning to make 3 different sauces as well PM?
 Last time I tried 3 different styles at once I had oven problems (accidently shut off) and it took quite some time to get all the pies done right.  Different temps , Pans, ....
It was fun, But I keep it to max 2 styles at once.

cant wait to see the result Have fun and Good Luck !

[November]

Dont they make a thin crust as well as deep dish?

I never made a thin crust at Little Caesar's, and I've never heard of Little Caesar's making a thin crust since.  Here is their product page: http://www.littlecaesars.com/pizza/products.asp

[JConk007]

Yes I did check it out the site. id you work there at some point Red? I guess I am thinking  the " hot and ready " would be (thinner) made with your .5 inch pan and the deep dish large, made with the other you provided the link for. Either way one Should use a pan on a stone for LC clone (hey that rhymed) Those little Baby Pan Pan's look good but I just dont have a positive memory of the LC for some reason. The Value is there I think they still get like $5 for a large cheese! or its allways buy 1 get 1 free.
John

[PizzaManic]

Hi All
Thanks so much for all the assistance

Red November, I will have to invest soon into one of those type of pans. Hopefully I take a liking to the LC type pizza. I haven't tasted anything like it before.

Pete: With regards to baking the PJ Clone on my pizza stone, I know in the following post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7551.msg67648.html#msg67648 you mentioned that Randy baked a PJ on a stone, so if Randy is reading this, please give me some insight on how I should go about proceeding with the pizza using my pizza stone and the precautions I need to take to overbake the crust.
Also while on the matter of the stone, how does the PJ clone crust look. Must it be charred or otherwise. Please advise as I could take the necessary precautions to pre-mature baking of the crust.

With regards to the DKM Cracker Style, I notice that the 24 hour room temp rise made the dough look really sticky as one can see in Pic 2 of this post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909 . What precautions should I take to avoid the dough from sticking all over my counter top and making a real mess of things when I am ready to roll it out and bake it.

Other than that all seems good.
I'll keep you guys posted on my results.
Hopefully all goes well.

Regards
PizzaManic

[JConk007]

PM,
I do have some experience with the DKM Cracker. Its not sticky, it is oily, in that post/recipe the one I use is direct from the front page and is dryer/ shaggy dough ball  my 1st attempt looked like this http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7592.0.html second time arouond just as good. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7872.0.html
You have 60% hydration in your cracker recipe the dkm and the one I used was 36% is there a reason you are using that recipe not the Pizza Inn dkm thin ? I think thats why it look wet/sticky and oily
I have yet to try The PJ but I will follow peter the king of that recipe and may never try LC unless you have great success.
Good luck and happy slicing
John

[Randy]

I am short on time today so I really can't help you.   On baking the only real suggestion I have is practice makes better pizza.

Sorry but just real busy.

[Pete-zza]

You have 60% hydration in your cracker recipe the dkm and the one I used was 36% is there a reason you are using that recipe not the Pizza Inn dkm thin ?

John,

PizzaManic's DKM dough formulation is for another version of the basic DKM cracker-style dough but using a higher hydration (60%). That version was developed by Jackitup (Jon) and is described in a series of posts starting at Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50791.html#msg50791. The link that PizzaManic provided is to my attempt at Jon's version.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Guys

Things have been really crazy these past few days so I had no time to reply

Here's a follow up on my last attempt with the pizza's listed in this post
I will start from the bad to good.

The one that took the award for yet another disastrous attempt was the Pappa Johns clone. I wont go into too much details. As far as the dough making process went, I had no real problems. Everything was perfect. The final dough came out perfect. The dough ball was Smooth, malleable and tacky. It sat in the fridge for 2 days. I managed to roll it out to 8 inches and hand stretched it to 10 inches with no trouble at all. The rest was history. The lack of correct utensils led to a disastrous effort. I couldn't manage to get the pizza from my counter top to the pizza stone. I literally had to cut the pizza into slices and placed 4 slices at a time on the stone. The taste was OK. Nothing to shout about and thats purely because of a small thing like utensils. Until I buy myself a Pizza Screen or a nice size Peel, I wouldn't want to attempt this as I can anticipate the results.

The runner up was the Thin Crust. As far as the dough making process went with this one, it was perfect. I rolled it to 8 inches and then hand stretched it to 10 inches. I oiled the top of the pie and and then placed a foil over it and then turned it over so now the pizza was sitting on the foil and oiled the other exposed side. I Pre-Baked it on the pizza stone till the pizza just started taking on some color. Light brown spots appeared on the crust. I removed from the oven and let it cool for about 3 hours. I then topped it and placed it back into my oven and baked for about 10 minutes. Like it or not, everyone really loved this one. I just was dissapointed about one thing. The crust did not char like how Peter's and everyone elses on this forum did. The rim of the pizza was crispy but more on the hard side. There was no crisp at all on the rest of the pizza. I would like to discuss this further in the following thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909 and hopefully perfect this the next time.

And the award for the best Pizza (My Personal Opinion) for the evening was the LC clone. In fact this was more or less the type of pizza I was originally looking for in the following thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6984.0.html . Once the dough came out the fridge I rolled it and placed it into my pan to proof for about 1.5 hours. I baked it on 220 Degrees C for about 10 minutes. The crust was soft, tender and slight amount lightness to it. This one would need some modifications to achieve the type of pizza I am looking for in the thread mentioned above. Peter, I will discuss this with you in further detail a little later.

Other than that all went well

Happy Pizza Making guys
Regards
PizzaManic