Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 86039 times)

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Offline the1mu

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Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #325 on: June 22, 2016, 09:03:33 PM »
Question for Craig....

How would you adapt this to bread making? Say the typical workflow is 3 hours of total rise (2 hours in bulk, 1 hour shaped), would you use yeast for the 3 hour period? What if you do a punch down/S&F half way through the bulk? Would that change the amount you'd use?

My kitchen is about 82 right now and the chart specifies about .1-.13% for 3 hours at that temp. If I am aiming for around 3-3.5 hours with fermenting (not including mixing, dividing and shaping time) and if I typically do 2 hours bulk, 1 hour shaped, is that the correct approach?

Or does it in some weird way, it just not carry over?

Offline TXCraig1

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I'm not sure you can. The underlying assumptions are rather different than encountered in bread baking.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline the1mu

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I'm not sure you can. The underlying assumptions are rather different than encountered in bread baking.

Would the underlying assumptions simply be to get the pizza dough to approximately double?

Offline TXCraig1

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Would the underlying assumptions simply be to get the pizza dough to approximately double?

Generally speaking, yes.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline the1mu

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Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #329 on: June 24, 2016, 09:31:15 AM »
So, in relation to my above question, I tried a controlled experiment today in attempt to see if I can approximate how to use this chart regarding bread making. I decided to do two identical doughs, literally within minutes of each other with keeping everything identical except the yeast. I decided to ferment and proof for 3 hours and stick to that timetable regardless of what was happening with the dough, so that the difference of the affect of yeast amounts would be the only thing that would affect outcome.

My room temp was approx 79-80 for the whole three hours and I checked it at the site of the dough approximately 5 times over those three hours.

I started with 66g water and then measured my yeast and added it to the water (IDY). I then immediately added 100 g of flour. I mixed until combined with a fork then put the ball onto the counter and covered with plastic wrap. The whole process took less than 2 minutes. I then immediately measured out another 66g of water and the 2nd yeast amount and combined. Then again added 100 g of flour and mixed until combined, turning the resulting ball onto the counter and covering. I then set a timer for 10 minutes.

The yeasts amount were .32 & .64g of yeast, respectively. I kept the .64g of yeast dough on the right side at all times.

After the ten minutes elapsed I added 2 g of salt to the first dough and "cut" it in with a dough scraper (about 2 minutes) then I let that dough rest while I did the same to the second. Then I kneaded the first ball until smooth (about 2 minutes) and then again the 2nd.

I then weighed and took the temperature of each dough ball. They weighed in at 164.1 & 164.4 respectively and had a final dough temp of 80.8 and 81.6 respectively.

I used peanut butter jars that I had weighed water into to mark the volume in ml. I then oiled the containers with 1.3 g oil (sprayed it in and checked each until equal...). I was a bit heavy handed but wanted to make sure the dough would come out due to the inconvenient shape of the jars.

I then placed the dough in and pushed down to try to get it flat and get an idea of volume. It was approximately 125 ml.

I then let it rise for 1 hour. The .32g rose to about the 170 ml line and the .64 rose to about the 200 ml line (it is not super clear in the photos.

I removed each from their containers, starting with the .32g yeast one and was careful to not degas them and gave them a slight stretch & fold.

I again took dough temp, room temp and weighed the dough. Dough temp was 81.4 and 80.8 and weighed 164 & 164.4, respectively. After placing back in their containers the heights were about 160 & 190 ml.

I again allowed them to rise for an hour, however at 30 min into the second rise the .64 dough was doubled (to 250ml Mark) however, it lacked the poofiness that I look for in a fully risen bulk ferment.

At 2 hours, .64 dough was at approximately 280ml and .32 was at 225. The .32 was definitely not fully risen by feel but the .64 felt very close, if not slightly overly risen.

I then gently degassed and preshaped. The dough temp at preshape was 81.7 & 82.1.

Each dough was allowed to rest approx. 10 min then shaped into batards. They then proofed for 55 minutes and then I slashed them and put them into the oven. Baked for 15 min at 230°C.

The .32 loaf had just a bit too much oven spring and began to tear at the bottom, despite a valiant effort to push through all my attempts at keeping my oven moist and create an ear. It also had a wider range of colors from golden/chestnut to white.

The .64 was probably just about where it needed to be if you don't want oven spring (so 100% fermented instead of 90%). It's color was much more even and most of the loaf was golden/chestnut colored.

Now looking at the charts, my guess is that the .32% #, while listed as 2 hours, is probably something a little over 2 hours and the .64 is listed as 1 hour in the middle of a lot of 1 hours, so I'd guess that is probably closer to 1.5 hours. With that assumption in mind, I'd say the chart was exactly right on with the times for doubling in a 2 hour bulk ferment. And that the chart could be used for bread to determine the length of the bulk ferment.

Pic 1 - initial dough height
Pic 2 - height after 1st hour
Pic 3 - height after S&F
Pic 4 - height after 2nd hour
Pic 5 - shaped dough
Pic 6 - proofed dough
Pic 7 - baked loaves
Pic 8 - cross section
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 09:33:31 AM by the1mu »

Offline The Lord Of The Pizza

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Could this chart also be used for general bread baking, say an American Yeasted Sandwich bread?  Seems like it would work.  Thoughts?

I have made a few of these lately with 2 1/4 tsp yeast, 7 grams, at 361 grams of flour (King Arthur recipe) and had an overproofed mess on my hands I think just after an hour and half at 85 degrees or so.  Maybe this chart can fix things.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 10:44:48 PM by The Lord Of The Pizza »
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Offline The Lord Of The Pizza

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So obviously temperature of kitchen is what will determine amount of yeast in a Room Temperature  rise.

So lets say I wanted to make this recipe, (King Arthur Classic Sandwich bread) found here:  http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe

361g King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
113g milk (skim, 1%, 2% or whole, your choice)*
113 to 152g hot water, enough to make a soft, smooth dough* (see "tips," below)
57g melted butter or 50g vegetable oil
25g sugar
1 1/4 teaspoons salt

And I wanted a ferment of 2 hours- (1st rise one hour)  Shaped loaf (rise in pan another hour) 

Kitchen is at 78 degrees.

Do I use yeast amount 0.384% as found here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg434729#msg434729

Making that 1.38624 grams of yeast?

That is a great deal less than the 7 grams (packet) of yeast called for in most all of King Arthur recipes.

Any thoughts?
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Offline jsaras

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Yes. Absolutely.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 09:54:55 AM by Pete-zza »
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Offline The Lord Of The Pizza

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Yes. Absolutely.
Recipe and details please!!!

Also, check my above post out and tell me your thoughts.  You are a man who knows what he is talking about!
Cooking can be a reflection of your approach to everything. Do the best that you can and if you burn the toast, do it again, right.

Offline the1mu

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Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #334 on: July 17, 2016, 12:37:54 AM »
Honestly in my own testing and experiments it doesn't work super well for bread.

What I find that works better is to work really hard on getting the recipe's DDT (desired dough temperature) right (especially KA ones) and then within a 2-4 hour window you won't see more than say 1.5-2° change in temperature (centigrade). That being said, you can also calculate the amount of change by some simple math. Yeast generally double or halves it's activity for every 9°C/17°F (not 100% exactly but a good ballpark). So say if the DDT is 75°F and your home 82° and your original yeast is 1.9% you'd reduce it to 1.5%. That being said 2% yeast is high. Most recipes specify around .3%-1% IDY for 75° DDT. So your recipe seems crazy high to begin with. If your kitchen really is only 78° though, you're better off controlling fermentation with an accurate DDT and a good stretch and fold + degas half way through bulk ferment. In my opinion....

That recipe is probably shooting for a 78° DDT being a straight dough/sandwich dough. The Pullman recipe I normally used calls for 0.75% IDY with final dough temp of 78-80°, 2 hours bulk with 1 S&F.

Offline jsaras

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Recipe and details please!!!

Also, check my above post out and tell me your thoughts.  You are a man who knows what he is talking about!

My bread making is a hybrid of Jim
Lahey's no-knead bread, Ken Forkish's ideas and Craig's yeast chart.  Bread is easier than pizza, at least for me.

Bread Formulation
Ingredients:
• Flour - 100%
• Water 78%
• Yeast – variable (see yeast charts)
• Salt – 2.2% 
(Total loaf weight = 784 grams)
• oil for coating
• extra flour, wheat bran or cornmeal for dusting

* special equipment - a 6-8 quart pot with lid, such as an enameled cast iron dutch oven
In a medium size bowl combine all the water (90-95 degrees) and flour  Let the mixture rest for 20-30 minutes.  The target dough temperature is 78 degrees.
 
Add the salt and yeast (dry yeast or 100% hydration active/fed starter).  Reach underneath the dough mass and grab about a quarter of the dough and stretch to the center.  Do this four times to completely enclose the salt and yeast.
 
Use the “pincer” method (see video http://youtu.be/HoY7CPw0E1s?t=1m53s).  Fold the dough over itself and repeat the process.  This should take a total of 2-3 minutes.
 
Perform a “stretch and fold” (see video ). Repeat this up to 3 times all within the first 1-2 hours of the rise.
 
Lightly coat the inside of another medium bowl with olive oil and place the dough in the bowl (I actually skip this part and leave the dough in the original mixing bowl).  Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and let rest for 12-24 hours hours at room temperature (time variable- see yeast chart)

Shape loaf into a boule (see video ) Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; place the dough seam side down on the towel and dust with flour.  Cover the dough with a cotton towel and let rise 1-2 hours, until more than doubled in size.  Alternately, you can use a “banneton” basket for the final rise. 
 
Heat the oven to 450-500℉.  Place the pot in the oven at least 30 minutes prior to baking to heat.  Once the dough has more than doubled in volume, remove the pot from the oven and place the dough inside, seam side up.  Cover with the lid and bake 30 minutes. Remove the lid and bake another 15-30 minutes until the loaf is nicely browned.
 
Alternate flour blends:
1.​White Flour – 90%, Whole Wheat Flour – 10%
2.​White Flour – 70%Whole Wheat Flour – 30%
3.​White Flour – 60%, Whole Wheat Flour – 40%
4.​White Flour – 90%, Whole Wheat Flour – 5%, Rye Flour – 5%
5.​White Flour – 75%, Whole Wheat Flour – 10%, Rye Flour – 15%
6.​White Flour – 70%, Whole Wheat Flour – 12.5%, Rye Flour – 17.5%
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Online parallei

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My bread making is a hybrid of Jim
Lahey's no-knead bread, Ken Forkish's ideas and Craig's yeast chart.  Bread is easier than pizza, at least for me.

jsaras,

Nice informative compilation of all the techniques involved!


Offline The Lord Of The Pizza

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Craig or anyone else,

Does this chart take into account the temperature of the dough or just the room temperature.

For instance if I start a dough ferment in the fridge at 38 degrees (but want to finish at room temperature), obviously when I take it out at room temperature, say 75 degrees, its gonna take a while to heat up to 75 degrees from 38.

Does this chart account for that at all?  Have you considered measuring actual dough temperature instead of just going by room temperature.  I imagine the chart could be thrown off quite a bit in the interim while the dough heats to room temperature.  In some cases that could take a few hours.  Does the chart reflect this?

Cooking can be a reflection of your approach to everything. Do the best that you can and if you burn the toast, do it again, right.

Offline The Lord Of The Pizza

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Making a 4 hour Papa Johns clone tonight, just mixed and balled the dough.  4 hours at 78 degrees, using 0.128% of yeast.

Will let you know how it goes!
Cooking can be a reflection of your approach to everything. Do the best that you can and if you burn the toast, do it again, right.