Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 22293 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #200 on: December 12, 2014, 05:14:11 PM »
In case others are using Cake Yeast (CY) - and are experiencing faster than predicted activity - I am as well.  The chart predicts that 0.15% CY at 55F will be ready in 43 hours.  Mine was ready at 12 hours.  I had similar results in an earlier batch as well.  Weight measurements were done with a jewelers scale (on a 4-doughball batch) and cooler temps were set digitally and verified by two other thermometers.
Dave

It's an interesting question, Dave. I've studied a lot of fermentation data posted in this forum, and the variability is inexplicably large. As relates to the example you just posted, consider this post from Marlon: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.0.html, In it, he uses 0.1% for 26 hours at 65F. It hardly seems possible that you used only 50% more yeast while dropping the temperature 10F and your dough was ready in less than half the time - yet this is what happened in your case.

This project has been frustrating because there is no possible way to reconcile all the different things that people claim to work. Obviously people's unique situations introduce a lot of variability, but even so, the differences are far broader anything I would have expected before I started working on it.

In the end, it's nothing more than I have said from the beginning - a tool to give you a starting point. Almost certainly you will have to tweak things some to get your dough where you want it - though your result here is by far the biggest bust anyone has ever reported.

If you try to recreate this result, please post if you get consistent results or not. A couple weeks ago, I noticed that when I got home from the grocery store, I only paid $0.28 for a 2# piece of salmon. They weighed the fish on a very accurate scale that was not properly zeroed.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Tampa

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #201 on: December 13, 2014, 07:38:18 PM »
It's an interesting question, Dave. I've studied a lot of fermentation data posted in this forum, and the variability is inexplicably large. As relates to the example you just posted, consider this post from Marlon: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.0.html, In it, he uses 0.1% for 26 hours at 65F. It hardly seems possible that you used only 50% more yeast while dropping the temperature 10F and your dough was ready in less than half the time - yet this is what happened in your case.

This project has been frustrating because there is no possible way to reconcile all the different things that people claim to work. Obviously people's unique situations introduce a lot of variability, but even so, the differences are far broader anything I would have expected before I started working on it.

In the end, it's nothing more than I have said from the beginning - a tool to give you a starting point. Almost certainly you will have to tweak things some to get your dough where you want it - though your result here is by far the biggest bust anyone has ever reported.

If you try to recreate this result, please post if you get consistent results or not. A couple weeks ago, I noticed that when I got home from the grocery store, I only paid $0.28 for a 2# piece of salmon. They weighed the fish on a very accurate scale that was not properly zeroed.
Sorry for adding to the frustration.  From the inception, your creating, sharing, and refining this tool for the rest of us doughboys was pure genius.  I'll look into the scale calibration.

Update: I should be able to get calibration weights in the next few days (when Bobino returns from travels).  In the meantime, I compared the opening of the dough shown in the picture against a second doughball (from the same batch) on the second day, and a third doughball on day three.  The flour was HG Kyrol at 60% hydration.  Day one (the picture) was a fight with gluten strength, day two was better, and day three was the best.  Perhaps I misjudged the readiness on smaller 00-type yeast activity and should have been more patient and trusted in the chart.  Next time...

Dave
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 08:23:58 AM by Tampa »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #202 on: December 25, 2014, 09:12:18 PM »
No changes to this chart from the last. I just added one more decimal to the yeast %s because a lot of them were rounding to the same numbers.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #203 on: December 25, 2014, 09:14:44 PM »
I did a 48 hours @ 61F with 0.025% IDY, and it worked like a charm: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14249.msg355929.html#msg355929
Pizza is not bread.

Online theppgcowboy

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #204 on: December 26, 2014, 12:06:26 PM »
Hey Craig, Just a suggestion, could you go to the first page and replace that chart with the most recent one and add a note and date that this is the most recent updated chart.  I ask this for those of us who live in the middle of no where and have satellite internet which is at most time just slower than dial up. That way we do not have to sift through all of the pages to find the most recent update.  The sourdo one too.  Just a request. It seriously sometimes takes a couple minutes just to load one page, try it with a couple of pages.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #205 on: December 26, 2014, 08:16:52 PM »
Hey Craig, Just a suggestion, could you go to the first page and replace that chart with the most recent one and add a note and date that this is the most recent updated chart.  I ask this for those of us who live in the middle of no where and have satellite internet which is at most time just slower than dial up. That way we do not have to sift through all of the pages to find the most recent update.  The sourdo one too.  Just a request. It seriously sometimes takes a couple minutes just to load one page, try it with a couple of pages.

I can't do it. You can only modify a post for a certain period of time.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #206 on: December 26, 2014, 08:17:59 PM »
I think the latest SD chart is the one on the first page of that thread.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #207 on: December 26, 2014, 08:22:23 PM »
Hey Craig, Just a suggestion, could you go to the first page and replace that chart with the most recent one and add a note and date that this is the most recent updated chart.  I ask this for those of us who live in the middle of no where and have satellite internet which is at most time just slower than dial up. That way we do not have to sift through all of the pages to find the most recent update.  The sourdo one too.  Just a request. It seriously sometimes takes a couple minutes just to load one page, try it with a couple of pages.
One can modify their post for up to 24hrs.   After that the request to modify must be made to your friendly Moderator.   :pizza:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online theppgcowboy

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #208 on: December 26, 2014, 10:34:49 PM »
Thanks Craig and Great suggestion Bob. Oh and those charts are pretty on too in my experience using the SD culture model.

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #209 on: December 28, 2014, 05:50:17 PM »

I am a regular user of the Craig yeast chart for my 00 dough.  In my “controlled” environment  the yeast   both IDY and CY seems a little high so I have adjusted accordingly.(but not for this experiment).

The question is whether this works for other flour types.

So with that in mind TAMPA Dave and I decided to compare GM 00 to Kyrol (HG).

We recognize right off the bat that this is an unfair comparison as the kyrol is higher in protein and is bromated however it will indicate if the yeast level and fermentation temps need adjusting.

Fermentation temp (60 degrees) was constant.  Yeast constant(.05 %). Mixing was exactly the same as we used two side by side Bosch mixers using same speed and paddles.

Hydration was a different story.  We selected 63% for the Kyrol as this is what Conagra uses in its farinagraph testing.  For most baking applications Conagra expects the hydration to fall between 61-65%.  For the 00 we used 60% which is a common hydration for this flour.  Craig uses 62.5%

After an eight minute mix, the dough was placed in Glad containers with peppercorns /poppy seeds placed 1 inch apart and placed in Dave’s 60 degree fridge.

The study had to be terminated at 49 hours at which time the peppercorn separation was measured:  00-1 3/8 inch; Kyrol 1 1/2 inch.  The Kyrol appeared slightly more active when viewing the bottom of the bowls.  Separation of 1 1/2”  is compatible with tripling in size while 1 1/4” is doubling.

Pics:   1. 00 at 24 hrs
   2. Kyrol at 24 hrs
   3. 00 at 49 hrs
   4. Supposed to be Kyrol at 49 hrs. but met an untimely death.

Bottom line-the chart presents a good approximation in my environment.  I will reduce the yeast by 10 % increments until I achieve less than 1 1/4 peppercorn spread at 60 degrees at 56 hours.


Offline dsissitka

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #210 on: January 03, 2015, 07:00:09 AM »
100%   Giusto's High Protein Flour
63%    Water
2%     Salt
0.42%  ADY


Two hours at 77F:

http://i.imgur.com/FfpXq6S.jpg

Three:

http://i.imgur.com/BpmcHmp.jpg

At this point the dough had roughly doubled in size. I tried to getting a better shot at the three hour mark but the dough shifted and some bubbles were lost. :(

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #211 on: January 03, 2015, 12:58:10 PM »
Just another thanks to TXCraig1 for putting this chart together. And also thanks to everyone who has contributed feedback. I use it every time I make dough. Which is not often enough to keep the details in my aging memory. I have to come back here, read the chart, read some posts, do the calculations, use too little or too much yeast, think on it, realize my error, remix and then enjoy pizza. :)

I usually do 3 or 4 300 gram dough balls and am always amazed at how little yeast is actually required. this last batch was:

27 hr
546 g flour
Water 327 g (60%)
11 g salt
5 g sugar
11 g olive oil
ADY Yeast 0.22 g

I used the 1g of yeast in 99g of water and then used 22g of that solution to get the itty bitty 0.22 of yeast. I have a 113 gram jar of ADY in my fridge that would last me a lifetime if it wouldn't eventually go bad. Obviously I'm not making enough pies. :)

Lately I have only been doing room temp ferments. I like the way the dough comes out, easy to work with and it tastes good to me and my family. Not enough experience with cold vs room temp to say one or the other is better, room temp is just a bit easier on short notice. I was surprised to read that 55 degrees was considered CF. I realize it's colder than I keep the house, we're a 65 - 68 house, but I've always done CF in the fridge, 38- 40. Is there any rule about what is considered CF?

JB

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #212 on: January 04, 2015, 12:13:46 PM »
The results. I was very happy with these. The first pic is after 21 hours. They were developing a little fast and they went on the fridge for a few hours. Pulled them back out for another 3 hours at room temp.

1. Chicken, artichoke and pesto
2. Brocollini, calabrain peppers and sausage
3. Pepperoni and onions

All were very tasty.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 12:33:59 PM by juniorballoon »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #213 on: January 04, 2015, 02:00:53 PM »
They all look awesome. Love those last two.
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Offline OZ STAR

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #214 on: January 23, 2015, 03:36:25 PM »
I started here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26602.0.html.  Converted it to yeast % based on 60%HR and decided to use 25C as my baseline model. Why 25C? 25C = 77F which is the temperature I keep my house and I like the way it sounds. 7 is a lucky number, right? So two 7's must be twice as lucky - all of which of course means it was a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess). Also, when I first plugged it into the model, some points I felt good about around the table were reasonably close. Basically, the model starts with this curve and then uses a growth model to extrapolate across the temperature range.

I had a very hard time finding any good data on growth rate at temperature for strains of  S. cerevisiae used in baking, so I used the model proposed by Ganzle et al. (1998) - http://aem.asm.org/content/64/7/2616.full.pdf. wiggle fit for baker's yeast as best I could with the data I have. I started with Salvadó et al. (http://aem.highwire.org/content/77/7/2292.full.pdf) and Serra et al. (http://oatao.univ-toulouse.fr/1556/1/Serra_1556.pdf) and then hand adjusted the curves and let Excel Solver fit them to the Ganzle model until I hit or was reasonably close to data I feel good about at several points around the chart you see above. I checked it against some of the data Peter pulled for me a while back and it was generally in the ball park of the points I checked.

If I get some feedback, I can easily adjust both the baseline and the growth model.

Ganzle model:
growth rate at temperature T = a ∙ xb ∙ e-c∙x

x = Tmax - T

Tmax is the maximum temperature at which the yeast will grow.

In the model right now,

Tmax = 45C
a= 0.02645608
b= 2.037020784
c= -0.198964236

------------------------------------------------------

Gee!.

If this Pizza making isn't tough enough for a Newbie. Looks like I need a Masters in both Science and Maths. But seriously, thanks for going to these great lengths and more importantly sharing your knowledge and your thoughts with us.

We are truly blessed.

Pete
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 03:42:30 PM by OZ STAR »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #215 on: January 23, 2015, 04:54:15 PM »
Happy I could help. I'm also happy to answer any specific questions you might have along your way.
Pizza is not bread.