A few questions on IDY, baking on a stone, and other baking methods

[LizzieTheChef]

----edited(read note at bottom or just skip this paragraph...)My first question is: Where in the world do I buy Instant Dry Yeast?? I tried Walmart, Kroger, H-E-B, two local grocery stores, and went to a restaurant supply store wondering if they knew of anyone or anywhere they sold it. Where do I buy this elusive IDY? It is driving me nuts! I wanted to try one of Pete-zza's recipes today, so again I went on a hunt for Instant dry yeast. I went to the stores I mentioned before minus the two local ones, looked extra careful to make sure I was not completely missing it or looking for the wrong thing, and I even went to a couple of the same store located in a different part of town. WHERE DO YOU BUY THIS YEAST?? And what would be the benefits vs. using Rapid Rise or Active Dry?

My next question is, as I was looking for the yeast today, I stopped by another restaurant supply store and I impulse bought a pizza stone and a peel. Currently I use a round metal pan with holes all throughout it and my pizzas cook pretty well. The top and bottom are usually finished at the same time, although recently the top has been getting a lot browner since I started cooking at higher heat. And my dough. Well I will not bring up my dough since lately I've been having more problems than you'd care to hear :-P

I cook the pizza in the middle rack at 500 in a normal oven. On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being no difference) how much more different would it be cooking on the metal pan I described and the pizza stone? When using the stone should it be in the middle like I normally do? Any advice/suggestions on using a stone and where to find IDY would be much appreciated...

note: I just went back to previous threads of mine and for some reason, a couple years when I posted those threads, the advice went right through my head or I didn't understand it. So my question on finding IDY was pretty much already answered by Pete-zza two years ago :-P. I'm going to go to Sam's tomorrow to check for IDY and if not they just opened a Costco around here. Still open for advice on cooking with a pizza stone though! I can't wait to use it but first of all I'd like advice, hints, suggestions, experiences and what I should expect. Thanks in advance

[PizzaHog]

Hey Lizzie
I'm a newbie as well, but went thru much of the same searching u did, so thought I would share the little I think I know.
From the pizzamaking.com glossary:

RAPID-RISE (OR QUICK-RISE) YEAST: A form of instant dry yeast (IDY).

Apparently diff companies use diff names for the same type thing.  I found Fleischman's IDY at Kroger and SAF brand at a local rest supply.  You may have walked past it or missed it, I did the first time too cause it was not next to the flour!  Go figure.  Check out the glossary for more info on ADY vs IDY or do a forum search for detailed discussions.  All I have tried is IDY and it's main advantage for me is it's instant - just throw it in and go - no activating or proofing or pre-steps needed.
I will be trying my new stone for the first time this weekend too so can't help much there, but I have found that it did make a diff when cooking on diff racks in a pan.  All kinds of things can contribute, as I am finding out, but in my case the pizza cooked most evenly on the bottom rack, but your mileage may vary.  Good luck on the searching and pizzas!     
BTW, it seems most stone users here place it on the lowest rack and some even on the oven floor, then if the bottom is done before the top a few minutes under the broiler has been mentioned.

[Pete-zza]

LizzieTheChef,

The IDY designation is not used by the yeast producers for their yeasts sold at the retail consumer level. It is used for their professional customers. However, yeast sold as "bread machine" yeast in supermarkets is really IDY. Also, the RapidRise yeast from Fleischmann's and the Quick-Rise yeast from Red Star and the SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise yeast from SAF are all forms of IDY. All of these yeasts are sold at the consumer retail level. Many of our members buy IDY (and ADY as well) in one- or two-pound bags/packages from places like Sam's, Costco's and BJ's. They can also be ordered online from places like amazon.com, PennMac (http://www.pennmac.com/) and King Arthur, although their prices will usually be higher and include shipping costs. If you do a lot of baking, you should buy the bags of IDY or ADY because of the significant cost savings over the three-packs or small bottles sold in supermarkets.

The main difference between IDY and ADY in terms of use is that the IDY can be added directly to the flour, whereas ADY requires rehydration in warm water (around 105 degrees F) for about 10 minutes before using in a recipe. It is usually personal preference that dictates which form of yeast to use.

Whether you use a pan or a stone is largely dictated by the type of pizza you want to make. For example, NY style and Neapolitan style pizzas are baked on very hot stone surfaces. Some American style pizzas, such as sold by Papa John's and Domino's, are typically baked on either pizza screens or disks. Other American style pizzas, such as sold by Pizza Hut and Little Caesar's, are typically baked in moderately-deep pans. Cracker-style pizzas are usually baked on a stone surface but flat pans, cutter pans, and disks can also be used. Deep-dish pizzas are baked in deep pans. A pan will produce a different bake than a pizza stone, although good results can be achieved with either. For best results, however, the pan should be a dark pan, either one that has been seasoned and darkened from long term use or a dark, anodized pan. Most of the recipes you will find on this forum will instruct which baking medium to use.

The best position in the oven for a pizza stone is usually determined from experience. Different ovens produce different results. Some people get the best results putting the pizza stone on the middle oven rack position. Others get the best results putting the pizza stone on the lowest oven rack position. I would say that most members use the lowest oven rack position.

Peter

[LizzieTheChef]

Ah ok, I will be trying the lowest position for the first time I use it then. The recipe I mentioned I was going to try was your copycat Papa John's recipe, Pete-zza. Should I use the pan I mentioned before? That is circular with holes in it? Or should I purchase the pan without the holes? I saw both at the restaurant supply store, and I also saw this flat mesh/screen disc... I asked what it was for and the guy said it was for placing it on a display not for baking with it? Is this true? I am not 100% sure but it felt aluminum-like. Thanks for help so far, Pete-zza and PizzaHog! I'm taking notes this time :-)

P.S. OOPS I just saw that I used Active Dry Yeast for the copycat recipe :-(Should I go ahead and make a new one using rapid rise/instant dry yeast tomorrow? Shoot!

Liz

[Pete-zza]

Liz,

This is what a pizza screen looks like: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/14-aluminum-pizza-screen/12418714.html. The reason I use a pizza screen for the Papa John's clone doughs is because those doughs contain a lot of sugar, which can cause the bottoms of the crusts to brown prematurely and even turn black when baked directly on a pizza stone. I haven't tried using a perforated pan or disk for the PJ clones but if all you have is the perforated pan, then you might give it a try. You might even let the skin proof for about a half hour to 45 minutes on the pan before dressing and baking. I haven't tried that, but it should give the dough and finished crust a bit more height. With a screen, the oven heat gets to the dough almost immediately. With a pan, even a perforated one, the pan has to get up to temperature before the dough can bake.

I have read that some members have baked PJ clone pizzas on pizza stones but I have not tried that with my PJ clones. Since I have several screens, there was no need to try any other method. Most restaurant supply stores carry pizza screens.

If you properly rehydrated the ADY you should be OK, although normally you would use more ADY (by percent) if substituted for IDY. Can you tell me which PJ clone dough recipe you are trying?

Peter

[LizzieTheChef]

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html <-- I used the first recipe you posted in this thread

I did not properly rehydrate the ADY when I used it. OOPS! I guess I'll be trying again today! I'm heading over to Sam's though to see if they have IDY, if not I'll try to RapidRise or bread machine yeast I was told of earlier and try again. The dough I made yesterday nearly doubled in size already... Was that normal? It's in the fridge at the bottom in a covered glass dish.

Darnit I knew I shouldn't have listened to one of the employees! Even the guy that looked like he was in charge was asking me if I was cooking frozen pizza :-/ and after I told him no he still couldn't really provide any useful tips... After I head home from school on Monday I think I'll pick up the pizza screen since I can see what you're saying about using the pan vs using the screen, but I'm going to try my other dough recipe on the stone and see what happens. I'm thinking I'm going to have to make a lot of dough balls. I don't know how you guys are able to wait 5 days after making dough to enjoy your pizza and see how the dough turned out. I am so impatient :-P

Also, what is the best way to cut a pizza? The pan had ridges in it and it always seemed more difficult than it should have been when I was cutting it. But it always seemed that if I waited for it to cool a little the edges were harder to cut through. Are you supposed to remove the pizza directly after cooking onto a cutting board or something? Thanks again for all the help, I really really appreciate it.

Liz

[PizzaHog]

Liz,
One tip I have followed since joining has been to remove the pizza from the pan to a cooling rack ASAP after baking.  This made a diff in my case to improve the crispness of the bottom, but my pan has no holes in it, so this may not matter if you end up using your holey pan.  I have read that some folks here that bake on a stone use a holey pan on top of their stove burner grate as their cooling rack.  In any case, after a few minutes of cooling, the pizza can be transferred from the cooling rack (or pan) to a cutting board for easy slicing.

[Pete-zza]

Liz,

Although you did not provide a timeline for your dough for me to examine, if you used the recipe I posted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197 and you made the dough (with the ADY) sometime yesterday afternoon or evening, you should not have gotten a doubling of the dough by the time you posted this morning. In fact, it wouldn't be until about Day 3 that you would start to see the dough rise while in the refrigerator. The only explanation I can come up with for why your dough doubled in volume so soon was that 1) you used more than about 3/16 teaspoon (1/8th teaspoon plus half again) of ADY, or 2) you used water that was too warm (I used 55 degrees F), or 3) you did something else that produced a finished dough temperature that was too high (perhaps above 85 degrees F), or 4) you did not promptly put the dough into the refrisgerator after making it, or 5) your refrigerator compartment was not cold enough (about 35-43 degrees F), or 6) some combination of the above.

As for cutting the pizza when using a pan, my practice is to remove the pizza from the pan onto a cooling rack for several minutes, transfer the pizza onto a wood work surface (mine is a cutting board), and then cut the pizza into slices. Another common way is to use a flat metal pizza tray, such as shown, for example, at http://www.centralrestaurant.com/Pizza-Tray--Aluminum16-Outside-Diam-c106p5695.html, and cut the pizza on the tray.

Please let us know how the pizza you plan to bake on the pizza stone turns out.

Peter

[LizzieTheChef]

I picked up the IDY from Sam's so I'm going to try again with the PJ copycat dough. Pete-zza I think you are right, I was holding the dough in my hand while I was oiling the dish and the dough, so I think I held it too long and it had a chance to warm up. I tried doing everything you said in the recipe to a T and I did use water that was around 57 F. I messed up on the yeast and by holding it though. I'm going to keep that dough anyway and make another one today.

PizzaHog, it seemed like the holes in my pan were not big enough to be useful as a cooling rack? For example, I would place the pan elevated off the counter because if I left it on the counter, and if I waited for a little bit and tried to cut it still had that "rubbery" feeling when I ran the blade through the crust. I don't think I ever used a cutting board with previous ones mainly because I didn't have one big enough but I got a new wood cutting board so I will try that as well with my next one. I'm also going to get an actual cooling rack since it seems like it'll be useful! The pan I have has holes that look smaller than the one I saw at the restaurant supply store I went to. Their holes were quite big.. maybe 2-3 times the size of mine.

In any case these are all learning experiences! I was definitely doing several things wrong, I think I'm gonna try to make a quick pizza today even though lasagna was supposed to be on the menu :-P Thanks again guys!

P.S. Pete-zza, my timeline followed your recipe quite exactly except for the time I was holding the dough etc.(I would say that the time for the dough to get out of the mixer and into the refrigerator was 4-5 minutes). Maybe next time I should cool down the dish before I put it in as well? My dishes are stored underneath the stove and I'm not sure if the heat from the stove could heat underneath the counter and heat the dishes? I think I'm over-complicating things but I will definitely oil the dish before I make the dough at the very least.

Liz

[Pete-zza]

Liz,

Holding the dough or keeping the dough at room temperature for about 4-5 minutes before putting it into the refrigerator would not have been responsible for the degree of dough expansion you got. I was thinking of something like a half hour to an hour or even longer. Using a warm bowl or dish would not have been responsible either. Next time, you might want to use the "poppy seed" method to track the volume expansion of your dough. That method is described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. If you don't have any poppy seeds on hand, you can use some other small seeds and measure their separation on centers. I use the poppy seed method on just about all of my doughs. Doing that has taught me a lot about how doughs expand during fermentation.

Peter

[LizzieTheChef]

I saw that on one of your other posts... I thought that was dirt that happened to be on your dough, I didn't know you did that on purpose LOL. It was definitely not sitting out for a half hour, I'm going to stick a thermometer in the fridge and see if that's the problem. I'm pretty sure it has double in size. Can dough melt? I'm really not sure if it rose or if it just kind of sagged. I will post an update tonight.. After I make the second dough.. I will take a picture of them side by side so you can maybe judge if it did rise or if something else happened to it?

[Pete-zza]

Liz,

Most doughs of modest hydration, and especially those with a lot of oil, will start as a round ball and sag and spread during the course of fermentation. It is that sagging that makes it difficult to tell visually how much the dough has expanded. If the dough ball is big enough in relation to the size of the container, it will usually sag and spread to the sides of the container and then start to expand upwardly. If the dough ball is placed in an unbounded container, such as a zip-type storage bag, the poppy seed method may not be reliable.

A dough will experience a very small loss in weight during the fermentation process but it does not "melt".

I look forward to your photos.

Peter

[LizzieTheChef]

Here is a photo I took right after I finished the other dough. I tried to take the photo quick so it wouldn't affect the dough too much. Something else I also notice, I think my refrigerator temperature may have been too high, it was set to a number higher than "factory setting", and was around... 45? If I remember correctly? I lowered the temp, I am hoping it'll do some good for the next dough. Also, the yeast came in a one pound package, I couldn't for the life of me pull it open so I had to cut off the top. And to store it I put it in the refrigerator in a ziplock freezer bag. I put the other unopened bag in a cabinet since it said no refrigeration needed for unopened containers. Does this sound about right? In the photo the first one is the one I made yesterday, the second is the one I made a couple hours ago.

-Liz

[Pete-zza]

Liz,

It's hard to tell from the photo how much yesterday's dough rose because of the way the dough slumped. However, it may still be OK. You might compare today's dough at the same point in its development as the first dough. I would keep the two dough balls toward the back of your refrigerator (away from the door) where it is cooler. Your second dough ball looks very good at this point.

I store my opened bag of IDY in an airtight container in the freezer. That is what I suggest you do.

Peter