Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 106956 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #100 on: May 27, 2009, 03:46:55 AM »
s00da,

Thanks for waking me up!  ;D  No worries about the "Hijack" idea, either.

But I’m sure you are familiar with the excitement that comes along when you have a new GF.  ;)

In other words, I’ve been somewhat distracted from the computer lately, and in the last couple of weeks in particular, mostly because…well…I’m sure you understand! But just like in Hockey - where injuries are absolutely NO excuse for losing in the Stanley Cup Finals – neither is my half-assed explanation.  :angel:


Anyway, the 96 hr cold-rise crust was an okay one. Nothing really to write home about (didn’t even take any pics). I think the window for this particular crust lies somewhere between 40 – 60 hrs max. I think it’s alright as a left-over crust but you might want to find out for yourself and repeat the same experiment and see which results you achieve.

But I second Peter’s opinion in regards to bake time, temp and hydration. I wish I was able to fire up the LBE and check for myself but it’s still very windy in the Bay Area, especially at night and that’s a freakin’ bummer!

But from a common sense point of view, I think a higher hydration is a must if you use temps in excess of perhaps 700° F for a NY-style pizza; and even in a home setting where you’re forced to longer bake times. And if sugar is used, reduce the amount to prevent excess coloration.

Marcello’s and Totonno’s are two different crusts, even though I never had the pleasure to try the Totonno’s pies. But from what I have read, seen and heard, Totonno’s has a fine balance between the crust being light and having a certain chewiness and crunch to it. I honestly believe that they use some sort of an altered bread recipe for their dough, maybe.  Take a closer look at those vids and you’ll see what I mean…the outside rim has an even coloration.

Marcello’s is a different animal.

Their crust is first of all baked in a completely different oven, at a much lower temp and different surface compared to the Totonno’s coal-fired oven. Do both ovens require a different dough formula? I like to believe so. But I don’t think the hydration would change that much, given the high heat of the Totonno’s oven albeit a shorter bake time and the Marcello’s longer bake time at a lower temp. I’d say Peter was very accurate with his guess in one of his replies here in this thread, by suggesting to me to raise the hydration by a notch.

Combining both of those crusts into one is what I’d like to call a “Par excellence” once that feat is achieved. Until then I’ll keep experimenting with the formula.



P.S.: I apologize for any typos upfront................mmmppphhhhh!

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2009, 01:10:26 PM »
There is no doubt about the high hydration doughs being used where better skills are needed but does that neccessarly translate into a superior product? I've always had this tendency to shoot for higher hydration, dunno why really but after trying a low hydration dough and then watching this video and seeing how the dough of an NY elite pizzeria feels, looked either low hydration or too cold. It also produces a dense crust. I'm just thinking I should try the low hydration as an option and stop thinking of it as an inferior product.

I will be making 2 identical pies in everything except for hydration. Will report.


Saad,

Different people will have different ideas on whether better dough handling skills and higher hydration doughs lead to a superior product. With my home oven, I am limited temperature-wise so I don't go overboard on the hydration. Often when I make very high hydration doughs it is to see how they behave in my oven and whether I can get a pizza good enough to make again. I also learn more about the performance and other characteristics of the doughs. I have also discovered that the most robust and best handling doughs, whatever their hydration, don't always translate into the best crusts. Some of the best crusts I have made were from doughs that I thought were challenged as I worked them to form skins.

I have also learned that I cannot tell the hydration of a dough just from videos, such as the one you referenced. I agree that the dough that Lawrence and Mario use in the video appears to be on the low side from a hydration standpoint, especially where Lawrence holds the skin without its stretching as he instructs Mario (at about the 1:56 mark), but it is still possible that the dough is of high hydration but with little fermentation time (room temperature or cold) and/or little bench warm-up time. Even in your case when you make the two doughs with the hydration being the only difference, the final dough and baking results may be different simply because the higher hydration dough (e.g., 65%) will ferment faster than the lower hydration dough (e.g., 60%). That means that the enzymes that attack gluten will also work faster at degrading the gluten structure of the higher hydration dough. The two doughs are also likely to feel different when you use them and produce different results in the oven beyond the effects of the hydration alone (mainly the textural effects). If you use identical containers to store the doughs during fermentation, you are also likely to see the higher hydration dough spread more and faster than the other dough.

I noticed in the video that Lawrence slaps, presses and pounds the pre-flattened dough on the counter with his hands for about 11 seconds (from 1:41 to 1:52), to further flatten the skin. That might account for at least some of the "dense" crust characteristic that you noted. I will leave to you to decide whether you want to simulate this technique with your two dough balls.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2009, 05:39:33 PM »
As I mentioned in Reply #73, my old man was having a B-day party at the end of this month. The event went down last Sunday but I wasn't able to post earlier so my apologies for that.

I made two pizzas for the party and used the same dough formula and I posted in reply #78 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74171.html#msg74171) in connection with a 48hr cold-rise. However, I did lower the oil amount down to 2% instead of 2.3% but kept the IDY amount at 0.3%.

The people who tried the two pies I made were all very impressed with the crust, and especially Marta, a lady from the Naples region and her friend Tony, also from Italy. She said the crust, after literally pulling it apart, labeled it as "superb" and some of the best she's had outside of Italy. She said the pizza reminded her of a cross between the Roman and Neapolitan types, which I, in turn, took as a big compliment. There were people from 12 different nations present, France, Italy, Germany, Bulgaria, Mexico, Peru, US, Jamaica, etc. and they all loved the two pies. One woman kept saying "It's a moneymaker, it's a moneymaker".  ;D

Anyway, the first pizza was an all veggie, topped with Kalamata olives, artichokes, fresh garlic, red bellers, mushrooms and marinated feta cheese and the second one was an all meat (ham, pepperoni, Italian sausage) with a layer of mushrooms and some fresh garlic tossed onto it for good measure.

Unfortunately, I did not get to take any pics of the two pizzas whatsoever because they were gone so fast, but I did manage to have some dough left over and took a couple of cross section pics of the crust, albeit a day later and with an extended fermentation time of 24 hrs. Nonetheless, the crust was very similar to the ones from the party.

As for the cheese, I used a combo of TJ's whole milk mozzarella, low-moisture mozzarella and fresh mozzarella, laced with a little bit of kosher salt after shredded to prevent excess sticking. Bake times for both were 8 mins with an additional minute under the broiler.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 05:41:22 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2009, 05:12:57 PM »
Mike, good lookin' stuff! Looks like some corn on the last slice, very ''Mexicana''.  :chef:

I made a great pepperoni NY pie too recently, also a similar situation to yours in the time it lasted. The crust was tender and fantastic! What oven spring! What char! I could not believe how good it looked and tasted, everyone raved for hours. I was able to get this shot off in time so you can hopefully get an idea.





 ;D
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2009, 05:17:34 PM »
Jimbo,

Thanks. When I first saw that pic, I thought the stuff resembled a bunch of maggots hanging out, enjoying the pie and having a little party!  :-X

But it's actually a small pile of fresh garlic, believe it or not! But I made a Pizza Mexicana for my old man here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg71449.html#msg71449
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2009, 05:23:05 PM »
^ Mike, that looks great! You're such a pro in your craft, thus I understand your lack of comment on my pizza above. It's like Mozart telling Salieri "yeah, good song ya wrote there". So I get it completely.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2009, 05:25:15 PM »
^ Mike, that looks great! You're such a pro in your craft, thus I understand your lack of comment on my pizza above. It's like Mozart telling Salieri "yeah, good song ya wrote there". So I get it completely.



Okay hold on sec...

Is your pizza underneath that slice of salami?  ???
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2009, 05:33:47 PM »
It's a pepperoni! And if anyone would get the joke I know it's you...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8063.msg70342.html#msg70342

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2009, 06:52:51 PM »
Ah yes...the leftover thread...

That leftover slice looks really like a pepper salami to me but if you say it's a pepperoni than it's a pepperoni. And if it's the only leftover from your pie, than I'll say what Salieri told Mozart during a performance of "The Magic Flute"...

..."Bravo! Bello! And bellissimo!
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #109 on: June 04, 2009, 07:11:24 PM »
Oh I don't really know, I just googled ''slice of pepperoni", but who knows what pic I actually copied. Looks like salami to me too, so yeah it was a salami pizza, that's the ticket.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #110 on: June 04, 2009, 07:43:08 PM »
Jimbo,

You might be on to something here... :chef:

I thought about the Pepperoni/Salami deal and just for fun googled pepperoni salami and, lo and behold, found this...a Pepperoni Salami.

Now put that on your pie!

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2009, 10:41:46 AM »


Now put that on your pie!

See I listen to you as I trust your judgment, only to find you are messin' with my head! I suppose this amuses you, leading me to inevitable disastrous results to provide the hilarity you seek at my expense, well enough is enough! As you can surely guess this pizza was terrible!
 >:(


 ;D
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 10:45:50 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #112 on: June 07, 2009, 05:00:43 PM »
Jimbo,

Sorry the pie didn't work out for you but I'm sure there are people that would kill for a pizza like that!

But I'm wondering....where's the cheese?
Mike

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Offline bicster

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #113 on: July 01, 2009, 10:09:37 PM »
Mike,

I have been using the formula from Reply #10 of this thread for a few weeks now.  First, I want to say, its been working out great.  My only question is, when you take the dough out of the mixer, in what form is it?  After a few minutes of mixing, I go from a nice ball to a gelatenous mess.  This does not seem to effect the final quality of the dough, but I was just wondering what yours looked like out of the mixer bowl?

Anyway, thanks for the great recipe, its in my permanent rotation.

Best,
Josh

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #114 on: July 01, 2009, 10:41:24 PM »
Josh,

Glad you like the formulation so far.

I'm wondering what your precise mixing/kneading regimen was? That might shed some light on the 'gelatinous' problem.

I never encountered anything like that, to be honest. But it's a wet dough, though.
Mike

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Offline bicster

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #115 on: July 01, 2009, 11:13:24 PM »
Josh,

Glad you like the formulation so far.

I'm wondering what your precise mixing/kneading regimen was? That might shed some light on the 'gelatinous' problem.

I never encountered anything like that, to be honest. But it's a wet dough, though.

I have been following this:

"Pour water in mixing bowl. Dissolve salt & sugar in water. Sift in 50% of the flour mix and all the yeast. And mix with paddle until a smooth batter has formed. Rest for 30 mins. Sift in rest of the flour and add the oil. Switch to dough hook and combine everything, 5 mins/Speed 1. Rest for 10 mins. Knead for 10 mins on Speed 2, rest for another 5 mins. Knead again for 10 mins on Speed 2. The dough temp was 80° F. Ball it; let rest for 10 min. Put in fridge for 1 hour. Take out and immediately divide into three 400 gr. balls and let proof (2.5hrs/covered) or put one or two balls back in fridge for next day use."

I have no trouble forming it into balls, its just that it needs to be essentially poured out of the mixing bowl.  My other formulas, of similar hydration, do not do this, I'm just a bit confused.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2009, 06:50:31 PM »
Josh,

The only explanation I'm able to come up with is the type of flour you're using. Is it KABF? A combo perhaps?

I used a combo of Giusto's & KABF for this formula, as you can see.

707 gr. KABF/Giusto’s Flour   100%
452 gr. Water (warm)       64%
18 gr. fine sea salt               2.5%
12 gr. garli-infused olive oil    1.7%
11 gr. organic sugar       1.5%
4 gr. IDY                          0.6%


Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #117 on: September 02, 2009, 12:40:49 AM »
Got some new flour to experiment with.  >:D

A friend of mine brought back some "Giusto's White Flour - unbleached - Hi-Protein with Gluten" (pic attached) and I am wondering if this is the same as the "Ultimate Performer" stuff? In case it matters, he bought it at Andy's, a roadside Grocer in Sonoma County (Wine Country).

I checked with Giusto's website but couldn't find anything definite on it. Maybe Andy's just labels it in a different way. Either way, I made some dough tonight and tried out the new flour. So far, I'm impressed. But I have said that before only to have to reverse my judgment...so let's just see what's gonna happen this time.  ;D

Well, I'm doing a 48hr cold-rise (bulk) right now. I'm curious how the dough's gonna hold up and how its characteristics will be.

Some pics...

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #118 on: September 16, 2009, 03:50:43 AM »
I know I'm late with the follow-up post regarding the performance of the Giusto's flour...but you guys know how it is,...we need more time! A 24hr day isn't enough any longer.

In my case it's time and the following...

My new girlfriend keeps me busy, and I'm completely stoked about her, if I may say so myself  ;D, the family has to have its share and then there's is work.

I spare you the details, though.  ;)

Anyway, with the Giusto's flour I thought I'd go back to a simpler approach,...where less is occasionally more. I made enough dough for four 12" pizzas, decided to go without "6 in 1" as a base for the sauce and just use three core ingredients, besides the tomatoes which were San Marzanos. Freshly minced garlic, dry oregano and kosher salt...that's it.

The Giusto's flour was very impressive to work with. Very easy to stretch and it took the hydration of 64% easily. However, it is not a flour that browns nicely despite the sugar I added. The finished crust, though, is a total different story.

It was a 48hr cold rise (bulk) and then divided into four individual balls at 287grs. each.

The amount of toppings was also adjusted to a ‘lighter load’ and the pizza you see below is topped with fresh and whole milk mozzarella, portobellini mushrooms, fresh garlic & basil, artichokes and mild Italian sausage. Sounds like a lot but it actually wasn’t. Bake time was around 7-8 mins but no broiler this time.

Overall, it was a very light pizza. The crust was thin, light and airy. The outside crust had a nice crunch to it, and in combination with the soft chewiness of the inside, provided a great balance. I topped it with a simple sauce and cheese combo. In regards to the cheese, I’ll try a Provolone/fresh Mozzarella combination next. I just didn’t like the coloration and was hoping for a little more ‘charness’ – if that’s even a word – on the cornicione.

Unfortunately I didn’t get to take pics of the bottom of the crust since it was a promised pizza for one of my neighbors, but it had some slightly charred spots

681 gr. Giusto’s   -    100%
436 gr. Water      -      64%
  13 gr. Salt      -        2%
  10 gr. Oil      -     1.5%
    8 gr. Sugar      -        1%
    2 gr. IDY      -     0.3%

Single ball : 287 gr.


« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 12:36:07 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #119 on: September 16, 2009, 09:58:12 AM »
She's a beauty, Essen.  Nicely done.  :D
Let them eat pizza.


 

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