Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I agree with the others on your pizzas. They look great.

Can you explain in a bit more detail the sequence of steps and times, temperatures, etc., that you followed in making the latest dough balls? That might help explain the crust coloration issue. Also, the explanation might be of value to others who may want to try your dough formulation.

Also, have you found sufficient merit in using the poolish approach to continue to use it, either for an 8-hour room temperature version or for the long cold fermentation version, or possibly both? If so, where did you find the poolish approach to have particular value from your perspective?

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

I agree with the others on your pizzas. They look great.

Can you explain in a bit more detail the sequence of steps and times, temperatures, etc., that you followed in making the latest dough balls? That might help explain the crust coloration issue. Also, the explanation might be of value to others who may want to try your dough formulation.

Also, have you found sufficient merit in using the poolish approach to continue to use it, either for an 8-hour room temperature version or for the long cold fermentation version, or possibly both? If so, where did you find the poolish approach to have particular value from your perspective?

Peter

Peter,

I'll do my best to post all the details. I'm still at work so it'll have to be later tonight. Besides that, I have all my notes at home.

But I can tell you that I did use the poolish approach once more although with a lower yeast amount and it went very well, not just in terms of flavor development but also in dough structure/texture.

[cup-o-pizza]

Mike,

What cheese(s) are you using on that all-cheese pie on the previous page?  It looks like it melted superbly.

Matt

[Essen1]

Can you explain in a bit more detail the sequence of steps and times, temperatures, etc., that you followed in making the latest dough balls? That might help explain the crust coloration issue. Also, the explanation might be of value to others who may want to try your dough formulation.

I started out by dissolving the sugar & salt in all the water (95°F). Then I added 60% of the flour combo of KABF & SBBF and all the yeast. Using the paddle attachment I mixed everything together until it had formed a thick batter. I covered the mixing bowl with the trusted Glad Press n' seal, punched a small hole in the middle and let it rest for 2 hours. After that time it showed a nice bubbly surface and when stirring it a bit with the handle of a wooden spoon I could see the strands of gluten already forming. The batter had also significantly risen up the sides of the bowl. As you have probably noticed, I strayed slightly from your previous suggestion on the poolish preparation in regards to the time frame of fermentation and the amount of yeast that was used as you posted here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg82892.html#msg82892. But then again, that was for a 8hr 'emergency' dough.

I gave it a quick stir before adding the rest of the flour (Note: The flour was sifted in both times), added the honey and the oil on top of it and switched to the dough hook. I gave it a 5 min knead to incorporate everything and let it rest for 20 mins. After 20 mins I turned the mixer on at speed 2 and let it knead for 15 mins, with one rest period of 5 mins after 10 mins kneading time.

The dough came out of the bowl at around 80°F. I gave a it a few stretch & folds on the counter, balled it up and placed it in a lightly oiled bowl. I brushed it with a bit of olive oil and covered it with aforementioned wrap. I punched another hole into the top of the wrap and into the fridge it went for 48hrs.

After 48hrs, I took the dough out and immediately divided it into four individual dough balls at 375gr each. Two went back into the fridge in my proof box and the other two were used within an hour of coming out of the fridge. Those two were very easy to work with, showed almost no resistance to shaping and stretching and had great oven spring. The crust was light, airy but chewy and had a nice rustic crunch to it. Compared to doughs I've made in the past, without the poolish method, the crust had in my opinion a better flavor and texture. But that could also have something to do with the flour combo and the addition of honey, so I'm not really sure on that one.

What I noticed about the two dough balls that did a 72 hr fermentation stint in my fridge was that they had no elasticity whatsoever. They felt like silk, to be honest and were probably the easiest dough balls I have worked with so far. I posted a couple of pics in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9630.msg83714.html#msg83714

Oven spring was great, taste of the crust was very good. The slices were, despite the crunchy exterior, easily folded in half, very light on the inside with nice visible pockets of gas/air (sic) from where the yeast did its last breath...RIP  ...Think about it, those little creatures die for our pleasure 

Anyway, the bake time for all four was 8 mins with an added minute under the broiler at 625°F after an hour of pre-heating the stone on both days.

Also, have you found sufficient merit in using the poolish approach to continue to use it, either for an 8-hour room temperature version or for the long cold fermentation version, or possibly both? If so, where did you find the poolish approach to have particular value from your perspective?

Peter,

I don't know if I can answer that question completely, yet. I had good, if not great results, by using the poolish approach. But I think both approaches, poolish and non-poolish, have produced a good dough so far. What I do know, though, is that my crusts have improved a great deal since I started mixing the KABF and the SBBF together at an even ratio. I'm not too happy about the lack of crust coloration but I'm sure there's a solution for it somewhere. Like I said before, I had great coloration with the organic sugar from Safeway (the store brand).

I might have to experiment with maybe different mixing/kneading regimens, the order the ingredients are added, prolonged or shortened fermentation times, bulk or individual rise, etc.

I will experiment further with the poolish approach to see if it could be improved and used under different circumstances, i.e, shorter fermentation times without the loss of flavor. However, I noticed that even after a 20hr bulk rise, the dough had already a nice subtle sourdough smell to it, which I personally like, compared to the doughs I've made without a poolish.

I hope that I didn't leave anything out in describing what the procedures were.

[Essen1]

Mike,

What cheese(s) are you using on that all-cheese pie on the previous page?  It looks like it melted superbly.

Matt

Matt,

The cheese was the Precious brand. I use a mix of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella and their whole milk, low-moisture mozzarella. I shred it into a rectangular storage container with an airtight lid. Once it's all shredded, I close the lid, give it a good shake, grate in a little bit of parmigiano reggiano, close the lid again and refrigerate it until use. It goes on the pizza cold, not at room temp!

I do prefer the Trader Joe's house brand of mozzarella, though. Both the whole milk and part skim types. They're very good, better than precious, in my opinion. And cheaper 

[cup-o-pizza]

Thanks for that info.  I'm going to head to Trader Joe's for my next cheese purchase.  I've been using the same combination as you, but with Boar's Head WM,  Pride of Wisconsin (regional brand) PS, and Parm-Regg.  I'm not particularly happy with how the cheese has been melting.  I find the Boar's Head to be much too creamy for my taste.

Why do you advocate putting the cheese on cold instead of room temp?

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Thank you for the explanation of the methods you used to make the dough from the formulation posted in Reply 209 (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83584.html#msg83584) since what you did with your preferment did not register with any classic preferment with which I am familiar. However, to better assess your dough formulation, I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following:

Mike's Total Dough Formulation

50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend (100%): Water (62.9841%): IDY (0.45558%): Sea Salt (2.5057%): Olive Oil (2.05011%): Sugar (1.02506%): Raw Honey (2.96127%): Total (171.98182%):

878 g  |  30.97 oz | 1.94 lbs 553 g  |  19.51 oz | 1.22 lbs 4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 22 g | 0.78 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.94 tsp | 1.31 tbsp 18 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4 tsp | 1.33 tbsp 9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.26 tsp | 0.75 tbsp 26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 3.72 tsp | 1.24 tbsp 1510 g | 53.26 oz | 3.33 lbs | TF = N/A

Mike's Two-Hour Preferment
100%     50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 526.8 g (60% of total formula flour blend)
104.97% Water (95 degrees F): 553 g (entire formula water)
1.7084% Sugar: 9 g (entire formula sugar)
4.1762% Sea Salt: 22 g (entire formula salt)
0.7593% IDY: 4 g (entire formula yeast)
Total: 1114.8 g

Mike's Final Mix
Mike's Two-Hour Preferment: 1114.8 g
Remaining 50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 351.8 g
Raw Honey: 26 g (entire formula raw honey)
Olive Oil: 18 g (entire formula olive oil)
Total: 1510 g

Examining the above, your preferment is not a classic poolish. The hydration of your preferment, at 104.97%, is a bit higher than the 100% hydration of a classic poolish, but you also included the sugar and salt, which is something that is normally not done with a preferment (other than old dough). Salt is sometimes used in a preferment to restrain the action of protease enzymes that might attack and soften the gluten structure but the percent is usually far less than the 4.7612% that you used. Since Professor Calvel has discussed the use of salt in preferments in his book The Taste of Bread, I checked out all the preferments that I could find in his book in which he included salt and the amount was invariably 2% (of the preferment flour). Moreover, the bulk of the total formula salt went into the final mix, not the preferment. I checked several of the prefermented dough formulations in the Calvel book to see if there was a more or less fixed ratio but found that the allocation varied from one formulation to another.

I think the above analysis may hold some clues to the crust coloration issue that you have been experiencing. First, because of the high starting hydration of your preferment, coupled with the use of warm water (95 degrees F) and all of the formula IDY, it would be natural to see a rapid and substantial prefermentation of your preferment. Second, the presence of the high salt level might inhibit the protease enzymes and the rate of prefermentation, but the presence of the sugar might offset that to the extent that it is converted to sugars in a form usable by the yeast as food (in addition to the sugars from the flour) during the two-hour prefermentation period. Because of the intensity of the preferment biochemical activity and the long period of refrigeration, it is possible that even with the addition of the raw honey as part of the final mix, there might not have been enough residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute meaningfully to the final crust coloration.

How to proceed from here if you would like to conduct further preferment experiments will depend on what you want to achieve in the way of outcome and over what time frame. You would perhaps want to achieve a better balance of ingredients, quantities and temperatures for the preferment itself and in relation to the total time frame of your dough. I think that you can see how these factors are currently working at cross purposes. Of course, if you are happy with the current formulation and results, despite a few shortcomings, then there is no need to do anything further. To me, the last batch of pizzas looked just fine.

I also noticed that your dough preparation had shades of Varasano's methodology in terms of the mix/knead/rest periods. Whether that was intentional or not, it would seem to improve the dough quality. So, if you decide to try to improve the inherent balance of your preferment in relation to the total window of your dough, I think you might see improvement in your overall results or at least identify other possible improvements. For example, when sugar depletion is likely to be a problem, it is often recommended that diastatic malt syrup or powder be added to the dough as part of the final mix.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Thanks for the detailed post.

I know my preferment wasn't a poolish in the classic sense and maybe we should change the term to "Mike's experimental pre-dough batter" or something like that but like I said before, I was trying to shake things up a little to see if that would yield better results in terms of crust coloration. Unfortunately, it didn't.

But the overall results were pretty cool, nonetheless, so it might be worth looking into it a bit further.

You would perhaps want to achieve a better balance of ingredients, quantities and temperatures for the preferment itself and in relation to the total time frame of your dough. I think that you can see how these factors are currently working at cross purposes.

What would you suggest about how to proceed from here on out, regarding the stability and order of ingredients added to the mix?

And maybe next time I'll take a little video with sound to illustrate the steps taken.

[Essen1]

Thanks for that info.  I'm going to head to Trader Joe's for my next cheese purchase.  I've been using the same combination as you, but with Boar's Head WM,  Pride of Wisconsin (regional brand) PS, and Parm-Regg.  I'm not particularly happy with how the cheese has been melting.  I find the Boar's Head to be much too creamy for my taste.

Why do you advocate putting the cheese on cold instead of room temp?

Matt,

I decided to use it cold because first off, it prevented clumping of the cheese. Second, I noticed that it melted a bit slower than room-temp cheese, covering the crust much better. But that's just my observations. Others might think differently or have experienced different results. It also depends on the temp of the oven and baking times, imho.

Give it a shot and see what happens. Can't hurt, right?

[Pete-zza]

What would you suggest about how to proceed from here on out, regarding the stability and order of ingredients added to the mix?

Mike,

Bakers who use preferments usually have to conduct tests to find the best combination of ingredients and the amount to use. In our case, we were fortunate to have JerryMac's turbo-charged preferment method that allowed everything, including the preferment, to be completed within eight hours and with good results. That saved us a lot of time. But, as JerryMac noted at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55506/topicseen.html#msg55506, his original dough formulation was not an overnight success. In your case, it would help to know what overall dough window you would like to use, from the time that your preferment is started to the time that you plan to use the dough, which I assume will entail a reasonable period of cold fermentation after the final mix. It would also help to know whether you want the preferment to be made within a certain time period. The prefermentation time period and the total dough period will have to fit within your schedule, much like a baker would have to do it to be sure that the product is ready when customers arrive to buy the product.

Peter

[cup-o-pizza]

Matt,

I decided to use it cold because first off, it prevented clumping of the cheese. Second, I noticed that it melted a bit slower than room-temp cheese, covering the crust much better. But that's just my observations. Others might think differently or have experienced different results. It also depends on the temp of the oven and baking times, imho.

Give it a shot and see what happens. Can't hurt, right?

Yeah, I've done it both ways and have found pros/cons for both.  I was just wondering if you had some legendary secret for doing it your way. 

[Essen1]

Yeah, I've done it both ways and have found pros/cons for both.  I was just wondering if you had some legendary secret for doing it your way. 

Matt,

No legendary secret here. Just some luck with trying different things. But do try the Trader Joe's cheese and let me know what you think.

[Essen1]

It would also help to know whether you want the preferment to be made within a certain time period. The prefermentation time period and the total dough period will have to fit within your schedule, much like a baker would have to do it to be sure that the product is ready when customers arrive to buy the product.

Peter,

Ideally the entire dough, including preferment, would be made a day ahead with an overnight cold-rise, to be used the next day and any given time during the day if that makes sense, without losing much flavor and the characteristics of a  good NY-style pie.

I know this sounds a little strange but it shouldn't be impossible, no?

P.S.: You mentioned the Varasano mixing technique. That was pure coincidence, actually. When I first started making pizzas I used his approach briefly but I do try to develop my own crust and mixing regimen.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I'd like to kick this one around a bit. However, I am thinking about a classic poolish, not only because I think it contributes a lot to a pizza, but to keep the math simple (there really isn't a big difference between a 100% hydration and a roughly 105% hydration anyway). Whatever the final decision, I think we will need some sugar or honey for crust coloration purposes. Using one or the other, or both, is possible of course, but you might want to settle on one for the time being. At some point, you might also want to supplement the sugar or honey with diastatic malt, especially if it turns out that the sugar and/or honey are insufficient to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Off the top of my head, I don't see any reason why you can't use a short-, medium- or long-term poolish. The composition of ingredients will be different in each case, but I think each is doable. I know that you have a day job, but is there a particular time of day that would work best for you to start the poolish?

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

I'd like to kick this one around a bit. However, I am thinking about a classic poolish, not only because I think it contributes a lot to a pizza, but to keep the math simple (there really isn't a big difference between a 100% hydration and a roughly 105% hydration anyway). Whatever the final decision, I think we will need some sugar or honey for crust coloration purposes. Using one or the other, or both, is possible of course, but you might want to settle on one for the time being. At some point, you might also want to supplement the sugar or honey with diastatic malt, especially if it turns out that the sugar and/or honey are insufficient to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Of the top of my head, I don't see any reason why you can't use a short-, medium- or long-term poolish. The composition of ingredients will be different in each case, but I think each is doable. I know that you have a day job, but is there a particular time of day that would work best for you to start the poolish?

Peter

Peter,

Since I have had good experiences with the organic sugar for crust coloration that would be my first choice and the honey second. Regular sugar, nah...not so much. And a classic poolish is what I had good results with before but I mainly used it in connection with the Caputo flour and my LBE.

Tonight after work I'll check out my local grocery store, which sells more hard-to-find baker's ingredients than Safeway and see if they perhaps carry the diastatic malt.

The best days for me are usually Sundays and Mondays, or even late afternoon Saturday.

This should be interesting and I'm looking forward to it 

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Since the start and end times when using preferments is important, is there a particular time of day that you would want to start the poolish? That might dictate which particular preferment duration to use and the quantity of yeast and possibly the amount of salt to use, if any.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Well, then let's set the starting time for Saturday evening at 6:00pm.

[s00da]

Hey Mike, it seems like your project is going into many different directions trying out things 

Just an idea that I had regarding your dough formulations. I noticed that you can take your baking temp. up to 625F which is really nice while you use a 2% olive oil. I understand that 1% is sufficient when baking in low temps to keep the crust from drying out.

I guess what I'm trying too say is, are you going with 2% for other reasons than keeping the moisture of the crust? how about eliminating the oil all together and try baking at the 625F temp.

Saad

[Essen1]

Hey Mike, it seems like your project is going into many different directions trying out things 

Saad,

First off, thanks for the tips!

Yes, it seems the project is going into a lot of different directions but that’s just an illusion. 

The reason I started this thread was to come up with the most decent, if not best, possible NY-style crust one can achieve/make at home with the tools at hand. Sure, certain tools are a given or must have, such as a stand mixer, a good-quality stone – not the crap from China -, some mixing bowls, spatulas, etc. And then there are the factors of different ovens, different mixers, different fridges…you get my drift, right? But by going, or covering if you will, a few avenues, some of them unconventional and perhaps even irrational or crazy to the pro baker, it might lead to the desired outcome.

But I shouldn’t have to tell you that. I’m sure you know already. 

What I’m trying to say is that sometimes it’s good to go in different directions, trying perhaps some unconventional things not mentioned in books, if those undertakings help the final result, a result that one’s happy about and can live with.

Don’t get me wrong, making pizza is like “The Neverending Story” but it’s all part of the individual mosaic one calls passion.

If Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler wouldn’t have explored many avenues before they invented the first gas-powered car and combustion engine respectively, I’m sure they would not have succeeded, don’t you think?

Just an idea that I had regarding your dough formulations. I noticed that you can take your baking temp. up to 625F which is really nice while you use a 2% olive oil. I understand that 1% is sufficient when baking in low temps to keep the crust from drying out.

I guess what I'm trying too say is, are you going with 2% for other reasons than keeping the moisture of the crust? how about eliminating the oil all together and try baking at the 625F temp.

Onto the oil… (Btw, I do like the Havoline 10W-30 , it’s an integrity thing, you know)

I did try lower oil percentages, really. And I eliminated oil altogether in some of my doughs, too, just for s#$*s and giggles, and ended up with a Frisbee with a pizza theme on it. Yes, it flew well, thanks for asking. Which reminds me to get a dog…

Dogs love Frisbees, right? He could fetch and eat his dinner right on the spot! Just thinking out loud. 

But all jokes aside, the reason to actually increase/experiment with the amount of oil was that even though I do get my oven up to 652°F on a good day, to resemble the foldability and “floppability” of a NY crust, with a touch of rustic thrown in.

Does that make sense?

[cup-o-pizza]

Matt,

I decided to use it cold because first off, it prevented clumping of the cheese. Second, I noticed that it melted a bit slower than room-temp cheese, covering the crust much better. But that's just my observations. Others might think differently or have experienced different results. It also depends on the temp of the oven and baking times, imho.

Give it a shot and see what happens. Can't hurt, right?

Mike,

I used a 50/50 blend of Trader Joe's PS and WM mozz on tonight's pizza and it was hands down the best mozz I've used so far.  It melted just like I wanted it to and wasn't greasy at all.  Incidentally, it was also the least expensive cheese I've used.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm going to go with Trader Joe's mozz from now on!

Matt