Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 81405 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #320 on: January 08, 2010, 04:48:21 PM »
This is a pizza at 61% hydration.  Dakota Maid premium bread flour.  Started at mid morning on day one.  Broken into balls on day two.  Baked at 550o at noon on day three.  I brushed the crust with garlic oil before baking.  The pizza was taken from the oven after 6 minutes. 



Thanks Essen1 !

Csacks,

Great job! The pizza looks great!  ;D Glad you liked the outcome.

In regards to the "firm chew", if a softer crust is desired, you might either want to increase the hydration to 62% or increase the oil amount a bit. I had good experiences with those two variables in the past.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #321 on: January 12, 2010, 02:51:46 PM »
As I mentioned in Reply #319, I revised the formula and finally gave it a test run over the past weekend. The crust was good but it turned out very pale, even after a 10 min bake. It might have something to do with the flour because I used the Stone Buhr instead of KABF. I also stayed on course with the VWG.

For the 2-hr poolish I used 50% SBBF and 50% of the total water amount, added half of the yeast and a ¼ tsp raw honey, which isn’t listed in the overall formula. I started with the poolish at 8:30 pm and started the final mix around 11:00 pm, so it was actually a 2.5-hrs poolish.

I then added the rest of the yeast, all the sugar, all the salt and the rest of the water and gave it a quick stir. I then sifted in the rest of the flour and, using the dough hook, started kneading until no more raw flour was visible, roughly 4 – 5 mins. I gave the dough a rest for 20 mins to allow the flour to completely hydrate and then added the oil. After the rest I kneaded the dough for an additional 8 mins and did a 2-min stretch & fold by hand. I balled it up and it went into the fridge for a 36-hr rise. After a 24-hr period, I divided the dough into three individual dough balls and gave them another 12-hr rise, 10 of those hours in the fridge and the last two at room temp.

The pies were baked at 610° F for 10 mins.

676 g Flour    100%  (660 SBBF / 16 VWG) 
426 g Water   63%
14 g   Sugar   2%
10 g   Salt    1.5%
3 g     IDY           .5%
7 g     Oil            1%

Single ball: 375 g

2.5–hr Poolish

50% Flour
50% Water
50% IDY
¼ tsp raw honey

Overall, the flavor was good but nothing I was really excited about. The crust was a tad on the dense side, compared with a few I made recently. Since then I have made another batch, with a slightly different approach and will post those results a little later today.

The pizza shown was topped with spinach, mild Italian sausage, crimini mushrooms and fresh garlic.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 19385
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #322 on: January 12, 2010, 04:15:42 PM »
Mike,

By any chance, does your bag of Stone-Buhr indicate that the flour is malted (e.g., using barley malt)?

FYI, if you used 50% of your formula flour (338g) and 50% of your formula water (213g), your "poolish" was technically a sponge, with a hydration of 63.10% (the recommended range for a sponge is 60-63%). The lower hydration means that it will ferment more slowly than a poolish. Because of the stiffer consistency of the sponge, it will strengthen the final dough, which may penalize extensibility.

Your yeast, at 0.44% of the sponge flour, was just a bit less than recommended for a three-hour prefermentation time (0.50% for IDY). It is often recommended that a sponge employ minimal yeast and be allowed to ferment overnight to generate more acidity, which should improve the crust flavor.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #323 on: January 12, 2010, 05:02:33 PM »
Quote
FYI, if you used 50% of your formula flour (338g) and 50% of your formula water (213g), your "poolish" was technically a sponge, with a hydration of 63.10% (the recommended range for a sponge is 60-63%).

That might have been the problem. Maybe I was too eager to get the new crust going and messed up with the water & flour amounts. Next time I got to pay closer attention to what I'm doing...for my own good.  :(

Regarding the stiffness of the sponge, it had me actually wondering when the 2.5 hrs were over why the sponge/poolish wasn't more liquid. As far as I now the SBBF isn't malted but I'll double check when I get home later on tonight.

I think I will repeat this crust once more, this time with the correct amounts/numbers for a true poolish. Then let's see how it turns out.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Offline RichC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #324 on: January 14, 2010, 11:25:42 AM »
Hello folks.  I haven't been around much the last few months.
And, I haven't made very many pizza's the last few months.
I have had some "extra time on my hands" lately, so I renewed my
effort to make some great N.Y.Style pizza's.  I was reviewing my formulas
as well as reading this thread, and here is what I decided to use on my
comeback trail.

*Flour/VWG (100%):    661.21 g  |  23.32 oz | 1.46 lbs
Water (63%):    416.56 g  |  14.69 oz | 0.92 lbs
IDY (.6%):    3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Salt (1.7%):    11.24 g | 0.4 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.01 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):    9.92 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.2 tsp | 0.73 tbsp
Sugar (.6%):    3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Total (167.4%):   1106.87 g | 39.04 oz | 2.44 lbs | TF = 0.10605
Single Ball:   368.96 g | 13.01 oz | 0.81 lbs

* used a factor of 2.5% additional protein needed.
75% of Flour/VWG= 484gr flour + 12gr VWG = 496gr.
25% of Flour/VWG= 162gr flour + 4gr VWG = 166gr.

My process was as follows:
1. Add IDY + sugar + H2O(~95dgf).
2. Add 75% of flour/VWG, and use paddle (stir on KA) to mix until incorporated.
3. I used an autolyse of 30 minutes, covered in bowl.
4. Stir for 5 minutes, then add remaining 25% flour + salt + oil (oil added last,
drizzled down the side of the mixing bowl) and continue to mix at "1" speed for
and additional 5 minutes until it forms kneaded ball..
5. Rest dough an additional 30 minutes.
6. Hand knead 5 minutes.
7. Divide, refrig, and proof.

These doughs were kept at ~40dgf for ~50 hours.  They were were taken out
of the refrig ~3.5 hours prior to forming/baking.  The oven temp (I do not have
an intermal temp gauge) was set to jusy over 500dgf.  My tiles (bottom rack of
oven) was just shy of 600dgf (multiple temp readings using Harbor Freight IR were
between 580dgf and 587dgf).  Cook times for each pie were between 6:30 and 7:00
minutes.  Cheese was a 50/50 combination of Cabot WM Mozzarella and Sargento 6
cheese.  Sauce was 6in1's following November's Red Sauce #2 recipe.

Overall impression, dough was very easily stretched to reach ~13".  Some air in dough,
but not a lot.  I did not take dough temp prior to baking, but it had a 3.5 hour proof on
flour surface covered by plastic wrap prior to baking.  It did not feel cold.  Sauce is always
top notch, however, this batch seemed overly seasoned.  Not sure if the tomato's being older
and maybe not as bright were not able to cover the spices as much.  But sauce was still OK.
Additional topping were Baby Bella sliced mushrooms and Hormel pepperoni (I sliced from a stick)
on two of the pies.  The third pie was half cheese and half mushroom.

Overall taste was fantastic.  Sorry there was no pictures, I promise to take them for the next batch
of pies I plan to do this weekend.  Crust had good spring, flavor was just ok.  Bottom had
nice leapording, but upper rim of crust was less golden and more tan then I would have liked.
The dough also did not seemed to have distinct salty taste that I like.  At 1.7%, I may try and
adjust that to a higher percentage.  I will also make a new set of 6in1's for the next set of pies.
And finally, I will try and stop by a local cheese manufacrturer (Fiero's in Wilm. DE) and pickup a
5# block.

Overall, the family loved these pies.  I thought they were OK.  Lot's of room for improvement.
Thanks for the good read Essen and everyone lese who contributed to this thread. 



Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #325 on: January 15, 2010, 11:04:04 PM »
Rich,

I'm glad you liked the crust.

I know, there's always room for improvement. That's why we're all here, I guess, searching for the elusive perfection.

In order to increase the flavor a bit, I'd lower the yeast and add a day to the bulk-rise. That should do it.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 19385
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #326 on: January 27, 2010, 01:32:34 PM »
Mike,

I thought that you might be interested in knowing that you are not the only one who cold ferments dough in bulk: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8555&sid=df3726408185951bad1ffb82b58ec650. The methods described in the referenced PMQTT thread are not common but seem to be used when refrigerated storage space is limited.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #327 on: January 27, 2010, 03:42:48 PM »
Peter,

In other words, it can be done. Not a very common practice, obviously, but also not impossible to pull off according to the posts on the PMQTT. Interesting.

I have another question though. I have been dabbling around with new flour combinations recently (nothing to report, yet) and will be buying some flour from Keith Giusto at his Full Circle Bakery within the next couple of weeks or so. Anyway, I thought I'd try some regular AP flour (Pillsbury's Best) and a hydration of 65% to achieve a light and airy crust but after a 20 min rest period, the dough felt extremely dry to the touch and not like something that had 65% of water in it. It was more like a very dense and tough dough ball.

Then yesterday, I made the same dough but with SBBF and it felt and looked like what a 65% hydration dough should look and feel like...sticky, wet and tough to handle.

I wonder if the Pillsbury AP flour has a much higher absorption rate than the KABF or the SBBF?

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 19385
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #328 on: January 27, 2010, 05:08:28 PM »
Mike,

I would think that the Pillsbury all-purpose flour has an absorption value of around 60-61%. Maybe you have an old bag that has lost some of its moisture content. It might also be some other problem with the flour. Member Saad once described problems he was having with Pillsbury flour, in his case with the Pillsbury bread flour, as he noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7465.msg64228.html#msg64228.

Is it possible that you made a measurement error?

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #329 on: January 27, 2010, 05:12:55 PM »
Mike,

I would think that the Pillsbury all-purpose flour has an absorption value of around 60-61%. Maybe you have an old bag that has lost some of its moisture content. It might also be some other problem with the flour. Member Saad once described problems he was having with Pillsbury flour, in his case with the Pillsbury bread flour, as he noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7465.msg64228.html#msg64228.

Is it possible that you made a measurement error?

Peter


Peter,

I don't think I made a measuring mistake. I double checked and the numbers were correct. That day, I made dough for two 375g pies and when I encountered the problem, I made another batch to see if it would happen again, this time only for one 375 g dough. Same thing. It seemed like the flour absorbed the water like a thirsty mountain goat, to be honest. It felt more like a 50% hydration than a 65% one.

Maybe you're right and the bag was too long on the Market's shelf. It also said it's bleached & enriched, which I didn't see at the time of purchase. I wonder if that has something to with it?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 19385
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #330 on: January 27, 2010, 11:16:00 PM »
Mike,

Common flour bleaching agents like benzoil peroxide don't usually have much impact on a dough's strength. However, the bleaching can affect the color of the crumb of the finished crust.

Peter

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4895
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #331 on: January 28, 2010, 12:06:53 AM »
Mike,

Common flour bleaching agents like benzoil peroxide don't usually have much impact on a dough's strength. However, the bleaching can affect the color of the crumb of the finished crust.

Peter


From On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen by Harold McGee

Quote
Bleaching is often accomplished with the same gas, chlorine dioxide, that is used to age or "improve" the flour.  But even unbleached flour has been aged with potassium bromate or iodate.  Aging has important practical results.  It has long been known that flour allowed to sit for one or two months develops better baking qualities; hence the practice of letting flour age before use (during this period, it is also naturally bleached by oxygen in the air).  But done in this way, aging is a time- and space consuming, somewhat unpredictable procedure.  Hence the use of chemicals both to accelerate and to control flour improvement.  Aging effects the bonding characteristics of the gluten proteins in such a way that they form stronger, more elastic doughs.


And from Wikipedia

Quote
Usual bleaching agents are:

    * Organic peroxides, namely benzoyl peroxide
    * Calcium peroxide
    * Nitrogen dioxide
    * Chlorine
    * Chlorine dioxide, which is reported to produce diabetes-causing contaminant alloxan[1] when reacting with the proteins contained in flour[citation needed]
    * Azodicarbonamide
    * Atmospheric oxygen, used during natural aging of flour


Now, I can't vouch for Chlorine or Azodicarbonamide, but I do know that anything ending in 'oxide' (benzoyl peroxide, chlorine dioxide, etc.) will oxidize/age/increase the protein level in flour, which, in turn, will increase it's gluten development when mixed into a dough and thus increase it's absorption value.

If a flour is exceeding absorption expectations and it's bleached, I think it's pretty safe to assume that oxidizing agents were used.

As far as artificial aging creating a 65% hydrated dough that feels like a 50% hydration-  Not a chance. Maybe artificial aging combined with, as you mentioned earlier, extended storage under very dry conditions (a desert?).

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 19385
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #332 on: January 28, 2010, 11:16:02 AM »
scott123,

Thanks for further elaborating on the subject. I know from prior research that the subject was more complicated than what I posted but I was restating a generalization that Didier Rosada gave in an article he wrote some time ago for the SFBI. The point I was trying to make is that I did not think that bleaching the Pillsbury flour was behind the problem Mike was having. I couldn't rely on personal experience this time because I never buy bleached flours.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #333 on: January 30, 2010, 07:08:09 PM »
scott123,

Thanks for further elaborating on the subject. I know from prior research that the subject was more complicated than what I posted but I was restating a generalization that Didier Rosada gave in an article he wrote some time ago for the SFBI. The point I was trying to make is that I did not think that bleaching the Pillsbury flour was behind the problem Mike was having. I couldn't rely on personal experience this time because I never buy bleached flours.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't really check the Pillsbury bag and what it said on there in regards to the bleaching when I bought it. I was surprised when I started using it that it was actually bleached. Id' never expected that from Pillsbury. Either way, I did the test twice, and twice it came out with the same results...

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I live in Death Valley with no air conditioning ???
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #334 on: March 03, 2010, 10:54:58 PM »
My new toy: The KD 8000 w/ Baker's Percent function.

This scale, compared to my old KD 300, is the ultimate for home bakers, imho.

The Baker's Percent function works great but requires some understanding. The first couple of doughs got screwed up because I was too anxious and didn't spent enough time learning it. But it's definitely worth the buy.



Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Offline norma427

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16917
  • Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #335 on: March 03, 2010, 11:01:16 PM »
My new toy: The KD 8000 w/ Baker's Percent function.

This scale, compared to my old KD 300, is the ultimate for home bakers, imho.

The Baker's Percent function works great but requires some understanding. The first couple of doughs got screwed up because I was too anxious and didn't spent enough time learning it. But it's definitely worth the buy.





Mike,

Your recent New Toy looks great! :)  Looking forward to see your pies.

Let the force be with you,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #336 on: March 03, 2010, 11:15:09 PM »
Mike,

Your recent New Toy looks great! :)  Looking forward to see your pies.

Let the force be with you,

Norma

Thanks Norma. The scale is great, to be honest. Couldn't be much happier.

Have a couple of pies going right now. The oven's heating up so let's see how they turn out. I'll post pics later if they're worth mentioning.

I'm still working on the coloration issue, and have been for a couple of months now. I'm beginning to believe that it might be my heating element that is slowly giving up the ghost. But I'm not sure. The heating times take longer, though. So that might be an indication.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com

Offline Ronzo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1167
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Georgetown, TX
    • New Texian Brewery
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #337 on: March 04, 2010, 02:04:08 PM »
My new toy: The KD 8000 w/ Baker's Percent function.

This scale, compared to my old KD 300, is the ultimate for home bakers, imho.

The Baker's Percent function works great but requires some understanding. The first couple of doughs got screwed up because I was too anxious and didn't spent enough time learning it. But it's definitely worth the buy.






Ok... WANT!!!

Just looked it up... http://www.amazon.com/My-Weigh-Digital-Weighing-Scale/dp/B001NE0FU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1267729354&sr=8-1 Excellent price. I have informed my fiance' that I WANT WANT WANT!
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron
Everything Voluntary

http://newtexianbrew.com - http://ronlennex.com/

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #338 on: March 17, 2010, 12:09:30 PM »
My new toy: The KD 8000 w/ Baker's Percent function.

This scale, compared to my old KD 300, is the ultimate for home bakers, wake n' bakers, midnight tokers, or whatever you may be....imho.


Yeah man, looks great! I might have cleaned up a little before taking the pic, but I'm sure you just 'forgot'.

Peace Bro!
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #339 on: March 17, 2010, 03:46:25 PM »
What the...?

How were you able to regurgitate your food onto my scale?? That blows my mind, Bro!  ;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://www.thehobbycook.com