Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[Essen1]

Claude,

Here's a pic of what the dough looks like right before I add the oil, probably after 2 or 3 mins of mixing.

Once the oil is added, I knead it for about 3 - 4 mins, depending on the texture of the dough, then ball it and into the fridge it goes for a 24-hr cold bulk-rise.

[gtsum2]

great looking pies!  I recently built a LBE and have been using a lehman style dough with good (not great by any means!) results.  I have been cooking with stone temps of about 600 and dome temps of about 700 in the LBE...any recommendations for a dough recipe that might work better in there?

[scott123]

Gtsum2, could you post your current recipe?

As previously discussed, you're going to see a dramatic improvement with less kneading.  For a cold fermented, mid 60s hydration, bromated (Sam's club) dough, I'd say 3 minutes of kneading max.

In another thread you mentioned having a bit of a hard time with stretching the skin.  Here's a video of Terry Deane that might help:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKWzut6hm8&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKWzut6hm8&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

Lastly, it's always a bit of a challenge with eggs, but a higher dome temp would help.

[gtsum2]

Gtsum2, could you post your current recipe?

As previously discussed, you're going to see a dramatic improvement with less kneading.  For a cold fermented, mid 60s hydration, bromated (Sam's club) dough, I'd say 3 minutes of kneading max.

In another thread you mentioned having a bit of a hard time with stretching the skin.  Here's a video of Terry Deane that might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKWzut6hm8&feature=player_embedded

Lastly, it's always a bit of a challenge with eggs, but a higher dome temp would help.

Yesterday I made up some dough wit the kithen aid mixer (I had been doing with bread machine on pizza setting and it was way over kneaded I think).  I used this basically from an old Pete post:

Lehmann recipe for one 16-inch pizza
Flour (100%), King Arthur high-gluten, 12.65 oz. (2 3/4 plus 3 T.)  I used 2 3/4 cup Sams HG Flour
Water (63%), 7.95 oz., (1 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.20 oz., (a bit over 1 t.) - I used 1t
Oil (1%), 0.13 oz., (a bit over 3/4 t.) - I used 1t
IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz., (about 1/3 t.) - I used 1/2t
Total dough ball weight: 21.10 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

I do not have a scale, so I am using cups, and tsp measurements etc.  I think I made a few mistakes in the process, but I put water in mixing bowl and dissolved the salt.  I then added my flour, salt and IDY (I used 1/2 tsp).  I mixed it on speed 1 (out of 10) for about 2 minutes.  Once the dough ball began to form, I added the oil (EVO)..and continued mixing (with KA dough hook) for another 2 minutes.  I stopped it and let it sit for about 5 minutes, and then mixed it for another 2-3 minutes on speed 2.  Dough temp was 74.  I put in plastic bag and into the fridge (mine is set at 37 degrees).  Took it out this morning and let sit on counter for 2 hours - dough temp was 71 when I worked with it.  This was going to be a 16 inch pie and low and behold my peel is not big enough, nor is my stone (15 inch), so I know I need to go down to a 14 inch pie.  The dough was very easy to stretch and toss - I did not roll it this time .  sauced it and added shredded mozz and pepperoni and shrooms.  Onto the LBE with a stone temp of 650 and dome temp of 750 - it cooked in about 4 minutes, but the pie was too big for the stone and I had some of it hanging off (and got burnt).  Overall, the dough was really easy to work, stretch and toss....almost too easy?  I had better oven spring then before, but the crust was not as crisp as before - my pies before (basically same recipe but using the bread machine to mix it) produced a nice crunchy rim and crust and was soft and chewey inside (which is what I like).  Bottom was a little too charred (I am still tweaking the LBE..the bigger top pan should help I think)  It could be the pie was just too big and I had too much dough??  Maybe I need to knead/mix it longer?  The dough I used today only sat in the fridge for about 12 hours, then a 2 hour room temp rise.  I have another doughball in the fridge and am going to cook him tomorrow (which would be a 36 hour cold ferment).  I also think I should have my flour and salt and IDY already mixed in another bowl and then gradually add to the water in the mixing bowl???  I just dumped it in for some reason

I also know I need to get a new top pan for the LBE - mine is way too small (I am ordering a 18 inch pizza pan to bolt in the top..right now I have a 12 inch up there).   Thanks for the help!

[scott123]

Gtsum2, so, if I'm hearing you correctly, you went through all the trouble to build an LBE, but you haven't gone out and bought a cheap digital scale? What's up with that?

A minimally kneaded dough, because it's a little more slack, can be slightly difficult to stretch.  It's worth mastering stretching, though, as this type of dough is very extensible and gives you great oven spring/puffiness.

It's almost impossible to judge this round of changes, though, because of your dough ball size miscalculation.  21 oz. of dough for a 14" pizza is way over the top.  Although I normally discourage people from re-balling cold dough, rather than repeating the too much dough thing, I would take the ball you have in the fridge, cut it in half and pinch the cut shut to form a smaller ball.  That should give you two 12"ish pies.

[gtsum2]

Scott - haha..good point.  I am going to get a scale today.  Any good recommendations for a serviceable scale?  For the life of me I really thought my stone was 16..I obviously I was off by an inch.  I am going to split the doughball in the fridge.  Also, the more I read on Varasano's website, the more I realize that is the kind of pie I am shooting for...not really a NY style pie (although I like em obviously).  This is where I am reading now and I am realizing how badly I have been preparing my dough...

http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

I have said it once, I will say it again..I have been cooking bbq for 12 years or so (ribs, butts, brisket, shoulders, picnics, roasts, chix, etc, etc) and I thought it was tough learning all the nuances of low and slow bbq (anywhere form 5-18 hours) food, but this pizza making stuff is far more involved with a LOT more variables...I see why it is so challenging

[scott123]

The last time I checked, walmart had a $20 digital scale, although, if memory serves me correctly, it was 2g increments rather than 1. I think target had a scale for $25. That was about 4 years ago, though.

Someone else may chime in with their favorite, but, from what I can tell, there are two scales that lead the pack (and will most likely be superior to walmart and target):

http://www.amazon.com/My-Weigh-KD-7000-Digital-Stainless-Steel/dp/B000EVHHJC

http://www.amazon.com/Oxo-1130800-Grips-Pull-Out-Display/dp/B000WJMTNA

The KD7000 is feature rich, has a good max capacity (15 lb.) and is accurate.  It's kind of large, though.  Cooks Illustrated likes the oxo.  I like the pull out display- for a thin form factor scale, you need that.  The price, though... that seems a little high.

[DenaliPete]

Essen,

Your pies look fantastic probably among the best I've seen here.  Looked so good I had to try it myself.  I mixed up to your specifications and the results were pretty outstanding.

I do have several questions though;

1) Do you used dark brown sugar or light brown sugar in your dough?

2) I'm using the DLX-2000 mixer, and I find that when I add flour in gradual amounts (per my norm), I end up with a very dry dough and either have to add more water (which I did the other day when I made the recipe) or hold some of the flour (as I did today).  I'm not great with hydration levels and all that, but I'm curious to know how dry or stiff of a dough ball you end up with at the end of the day with this recipe?  I just want to make sure I'm not messing up somewhere.

I know the sugar could prove problematic, but have you given any thought to cooking one of these bad boys up in the LBE at a lower temp?

Thanks sir,

Peter

[Essen1]

Someone else may chime in with their favorite, but, from what I can tell, there are two scales that lead the pack (and will most likely be superior to walmart and target):

Scott,

I own the KD-7000. It's a fantastic scale and well worth the money. Comes with a bunch of features including a Baker's percent feature. It's pretty handy.

Peter,

I use the light brown sugar. But you could try the dark brown one and see what happens and report back your findings.

I have no experience with the DLX mixer but I know that it is superior to what I have (Cuisinart 5.5qt http://www.cookworks.ca/qs/product/66/5073/228349/0/0 ) so I cannot really compare your dough to mine. However, it should come out feeling smooth and a tad sticky but not so sticky that the dough leaves residue on your hands or fingers. Maybe someone with a DLX can give you more info on it.

My advice is to play around with different hydrations and see how your mixer handles it.

As far as the LBE goes, I haven't tried the formula in the LBE. Not even at a lower temp. I have been playing around with the idea, though, but using the LBE would mean omitting the sugar altogether. The thing gets way too hot

[Essen1]

Scott,

I own the KD-7000. It's a fantastic scale and well worth the money. Comes with a bunch of features including a Baker's percent feature. It's pretty handy.

Correction: I own the KD-8000, not as above stated the KD-7000. 

[norma427]

Mike,

I finally got around to trying your formula in the deck oven.  This is the formula I used, but I only made one dough ball.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg104685.html#msg104685
I mixed your formula in my Kitchen Aid Mixer. 

I want to thank you for posting your formula.    This pie turned out well and the taste of the crust was good.  This crust rim inside was softer than my preferment Lehmann dough crust.  I used KABF in the formula.  In total there were 4 different formulas for pies made today.  I think most of my pies turn out looking about the same when using the deck oven.  I didn’t brush the rim with olive oil like you did in your post, before the bake.  At least you can see how your formula turned out in the deck oven.

Pictures below

Thanks,

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Essen1]

Norma,

That's awesome that you gave my formula a shot in your oven.

Looks like the pie turned out pretty well. Thanks for posting your findings, I appreciate it!

 

[norma427]

Norma,

That's awesome that you gave my formula a shot in your oven.

Looks like the pie turned out pretty well. Thanks for posting your findings, I appreciate it!

 

Mike,

Your formula was good.    The pie did turn out well and Steve and I enjoyed it.  No matter what formula I seem to try in my oven, most of them seem to turn out looking the same, even if they do taste different.  I wanted to see if I could taste any sweetness in the crust from the brown sugar that was added, but I couldn’t detect any.  I never made a pie with brown sugar before.

Thanks again 

Norma

[Essen1]

Mike,

I never made a pie with brown sugar before.

Norma

I did it in a spur of the moment and actually thought it would help my browning issues but I see that even in your oven, the pies look the same.

At least it shows some very nice oven spring.

[norma427]

I did it in a spur of the moment and actually thought it would help my browning issues but I see that even in your oven, the pies look the same.

At least it shows some very nice oven spring.

Mike,

I also wondered if the brown sugar would contribute to a browner crust.    Most of my pies baked in the deck oven don’t really get very dark, until the bottom of the pizza is baked.  I did try to turn up my deck oven different times, but all I got was a burnt bottom crust. I guess I wasn't using the right formula. It even shows when baking in a deck oven, there can still be problems.   

Using your formula did give nice oven spring.   

Norma

[Essen1]

Norma,

When you look at the traditional NY street slices, they aren't really that browned to begin with so I'm sure we're in the right ballpark there.

I wonder, though, what could be done, dough-wise, to increase coloring besides raising the oven temp because mine tops out at roughly 610°F with a 90 min preheat.

[norma427]

Norma,

When you look at the traditional NY street slices, they aren't really that browned to begin with so I'm sure we're in the right ballpark there.

I wonder, though, what could be done, dough-wise, to increase coloring besides raising the oven temp because mine tops out at roughly 610°F with a 90 min preheat.

Mike,

I know I have been to NY numerous times and have eaten traditional NY street slices.  Most of their pies really don't have a lot of browning in the crust.  I think most of those pizzerias do bake at even lower temperatures than I do.  I timed different bakes of pizzas and they were longer than my pies.

I had used diastatic malt powder before and had been advised by Peter, that if my crust weren’t browning enough that maybe I could then add the diastatic malt powder for better browning.  Did you ever try the diastatic malt powder?

Norma

[Essen1]

Mike,

I know I have been to NY numerous times and have eaten traditional NY street slices.  Most of their pies really don't have a lot of browning in the crust.  I think most of those pizzerias do bake at even lower temperatures than I do.  I timed different bakes of pizzas and they were longer than my pies.

I had used diastatic malt powder before and had been advised by Peter, that if my crust weren’t browning enough that maybe I could then add the diastatic malt powder for better browning.  Did you ever try the diastatic malt powder?

Norma

Norma,

I haven't used diastatic malt.

However, I just bought a 50 lb bag of flour made with malted Barley flour but I don't know if that would have a major impact on browning. I made a pie last night with it and it was so-so regarding the browning.

[s00da]

Mike, you still having crust browning issues? I thought you resolved that