### Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 91456 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#### Pete-zza

• Global Moderator
• Posts: 20501
• Location: Texas
• Always learning
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #420 on: December 04, 2010, 02:18:21 PM »
Peter,

I made two 14" pies out of the two dough balls. I don't know to what TF that correlates but it was in line with the thickness of the crust I see at Marcello's.

Anyway, I have come up with a low-hydration formula (haven't tried it yet) and would like to see what you think. I know that sometimes you can tell by looking at a formula if it's a workable one or if it requires a few tweaks and it would be great if you could glance over it and see if it might need something else?

This is for two 400gr dough balls:

496gr. F     100%
288gr. W     58%
10gr. Salt      2%
5gr. Sugar     1%
1gr. IDY         .2%

Any suggestions?

Mike,

If you made 14" pizzas out of the 16 ounce dough balls, the corresponding thickness factor was 16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.10394. If you use 400 grams dough balls, or 14.109 ounces, the corresponding thickness factor for 14" pizzas is 14.109/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.09166.

As best I can tell from the Roto-Flex website at http://www.rotoflexoven.com/EXPAGES/oven_with_hood_specs.asp, their ovens are gas operated. A gas operated oven will produce a more moist bake than an electric oven. When I was trying to clone a Papa John's pizza, which is baked in a gas conveyor oven, but using my home electric oven in my case, I found that I needed to use a longer bake time for the same size starting (unbaked) pizza. In my case, I was also trying to have the baked PJ clone pizza weigh the same as a like baked PJ pizza that I bought from one of their stores. To get this result, without really realizing it for some time, I ended up using a bit more dough than I believed PJs was using. So, if the above applies in your case as well, you may not want to use a too-low thickness factor if you are trying to come up with a Marcello's clone in your home electric oven. If a thickness factor such as used at Marcello's does not do the trick in your oven, you can always lower it in a later effort. Or, you can stick with your game plan and raise the thickness factor later if the results suggest a need to do so.

You indicated a yeast quantity of 0.20% IDY. For that amount of dough, I assume that you plan to ferment the dough at room temperature for same day use.

Peter

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #421 on: December 04, 2010, 02:38:05 PM »
Mike,

If you made 14" pizzas out of the 16 ounce dough balls, the corresponding thickness factor was 16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.10394. If you use 400 grams dough balls, or 14.109 ounces, the corresponding thickness factor for 14" pizzas is 14.109/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.09166.

As best I can tell from the Roto-Flex website at http://www.rotoflexoven.com/EXPAGES/oven_with_hood_specs.asp, their ovens are gas operated. A gas operated oven will produce a more moist bake than an electric oven. When I was trying to clone a Papa John's pizza, which is baked in a gas conveyor oven, but using my home electric oven in my case, I found that I needed to use a longer bake time for the same size starting (unbaked) pizza. In my case, I was also trying to have the baked PJ clone pizza weigh the same as a like baked PJ pizza that I bought from one of their stores. To get this result, without really realizing it for some time, I ended up using a bit more dough than I believed PJs was using. So, if the above applies in your case as well, you may not want to use a too-low thickness factor if you are trying to come up with a Marcello's clone in your home electric oven. If a thickness factor such as used at Marcello's does not do the trick in your oven, you can always lower it in a later effort. Or, you can stick with your game plan and raise the thickness factor later if the results suggest a need to do so.

You indicated a yeast quantity of 0.20% IDY. For that amount of dough, I assume that you plan to ferment the dough at room temperature for same day use.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you very much for your assessment.

Yes, I have planned on doing a room temp fermentation for same day use.

I haven't thought it all the way through, yet, but since you mentioned a longer bake, or that I might have to use a longer bake, it brings up the question of hydration. Wouldn't a longer bake dry the dough out even further than what I experienced yesterday?

Regarding the thickness factor, I'd like to keep it as close to the Marcello's pizzas as possible. The reason I chose to stay in the 400 gram vicinity is because of their large & puffy rims. If I use a lower Thickness factor in conjunction with a longer bake I'm afraid the dough would be even crunchier than it was yesterday and might lose the NY-style characteristics completely.

Maybe a little bit of oil as a counter balance to the low hydration value might work?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Pete-zza

• Global Moderator
• Posts: 20501
• Location: Texas
• Always learning
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #422 on: December 04, 2010, 03:14:05 PM »
Mike,

You raise a good point about the hydration, both by itself and in relation to the thickness factor you were thinking of using. In my case, I was using about 7% oil and around 4% sugar. That combination will help retain moisture in the dough during baking such that hydration doesn't become a real issue. In your case, I think I would increase the hydration by a couple percent. If you think that Marcello's is using oil in its dough, then I would think to do the same, but try to keep the combination of water and oil at around 61%, at least for now. And I think I would go with Marcello's thickness factor. In that case, the dough ball weight for a 14" pizza would be 3.14159 x 7 x 7 x 0.12586 = 19.38 ounces, or 549 grams. For two 14" pizzas, the weight would be 38.75 ounces, or 1098.5 grams. You might also add about 1.5% for bowl residue compensation purposes.

Peter

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #423 on: December 04, 2010, 04:03:22 PM »
Peter,

I just had an epiphany of some sort.

When you mentioned that a gas oven provides a more moist bake than a conventional electric oven, which provides an extremely dry environment at home. Not to mention the air circulation in a Rotoflex is much much better due to its vents.

So, with that said, I wonder if it would make a difference to add a cup of water next to the lower heating element, similar to baking bread. But I don't know if that would have a significant impact, though.

I don't know for sure if Marcello's uses oil in their doughs. I didn't get the impression they do given the way the dough handled and felt yesterday. I think I'll be making two batches, one with and one without oil with hydration values at 60% & 61% for comparison reasons.

Here are the two formulas I plan on using:

Oil

Flour (100%):    662.59 g  |  23.37 oz | 1.46 lbs
Water (61%):    404.18 g  |  14.26 oz | 0.89 lbs
IDY (.2%):    1.33 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (2%):    13.25 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.37 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
Oil (2%):    13.25 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.94 tsp | 0.98 tbsp
Sugar (3%):    19.88 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.99 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
Total (168.2%):   1114.47 g | 39.31 oz | 2.46 lbs | TF = N/A

Single Ball:   557.23 g | 19.66 oz | 1.23 lbs

No oil

Flour (100%):    674.62 g  |  23.8 oz | 1.49 lbs
Water (60%):    404.77 g  |  14.28 oz | 0.89 lbs
IDY (.2%):    1.35 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (2%):    13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.42 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
Sugar (3%):    20.24 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.08 tsp | 1.69 tbsp
Total (165.2%):   1114.47 g | 39.31 oz | 2.46 lbs | TF = N/A

Single Ball:   557.23 g | 19.66 oz | 1.23 lbs

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #424 on: December 04, 2010, 10:38:34 PM »
Peter,

Here's a formula using Marcello's TF of 0.13 (rounded up) and your suggestion of 7% oil and 4% sugar while keeping the hydration at 61%.

Flour (100%):    661.14 g  |  23.32 oz | 1.46 lbs
Water (61%):    403.29 g  |  14.23 oz | 0.89 lbs
IDY (.2%):      1.32 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (2%):    13.22 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.37 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
Oil (7%):            46.28 g | 1.63 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.28 tsp | 3.43 tbsp
Sugar (4%):    26.45 g | 0.93 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.63 tsp | 2.21 tbsp

Total (174.2%):   1151.7 g | 40.62 oz | 2.54 lbs | TF = 0.13195

Single Ball:   575.85 g | 20.31 oz | 1.27 lbs

Does that formula look to you like it could work?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Pete-zza

• Global Moderator
• Posts: 20501
• Location: Texas
• Always learning
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #425 on: December 04, 2010, 11:09:54 PM »
Mike,

What you presented is what I would describe as a somewhat overly hydrated, slightly thinner version of a Papa John's clone. It reminds me of some of the thinner versions that I made some time ago of Randy's American style, which he viewed as his own version of a Papa John's style. Those versions call for a relatively high hydration and high levels of oil and sugar (or honey). The high oil and sugar levels of the dough formulation you posted makes it much closer to an American style than a NY style. A NY style would not have levels of oil or sugar as high as those you posted. Weight-wise, I would say that the dough ball your dough formulation would produce is quite close to what Papa John's uses to make its pizzas.

There are a couple of places where I think you might run into problems with the dough formulation you posted. The first is the combination of a hydration of 61% and the oil at 7%. The oil will contribute its own "wetting" effect to the dough, so when it is combined with the formula hydration, it will make the dough more extensible than normal. When I have used a lot of oil to make the PJ clones, I lowered the formula hydration to around 56%, such that the combined baker's percents came to around 62-63%. The second area where you might experience a problem is with the 4% sugar. That wouldn't be a problem if you were to use a pizza screen, which is what I used to make my PJ clone pizzas, but 4% sugar may be too high if you bake the pizza on a pizza stone. You might find that the bottom of the crust turns brown before the rest of the pizza is done baking. Some members reported that they were able to bake PJ clones on their pizza stones but they had to watch the bake very closely.

Peter

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #426 on: December 04, 2010, 11:50:52 PM »
Mike,

What you presented is what I would describe as a somewhat overly hydrated, slightly thinner version of a Papa John's clone. It reminds me of some of the thinner versions that I made some time ago of Randy's American style, which he viewed as his own version of a Papa John's style. Those versions call for a relatively high hydration and high levels of oil and sugar (or honey). The high oil and sugar levels of the dough formulation you posted makes it much closer to an American style than a NY style. A NY style would not have levels of oil or sugar as high as those you posted. Weight-wise, I would say that the dough ball your dough formulation would produce is quite close to what Papa John's uses to make its pizzas.

There are a couple of places where I think you might run into problems with the dough formulation you posted. The first is the combination of a hydration of 61% and the oil at 7%. The oil will contribute its own "wetting" effect to the dough, so when it is combined with the formula hydration, it will make the dough more extensible than normal. When I have used a lot of oil to make the PJ clones, I lowered the formula hydration to around 56%, such that the combined baker's percents came to around 62-63%. The second area where you might experience a problem is with the 4% sugar. That wouldn't be a problem if you were to use a pizza screen, which is what I used to make my PJ clone pizzas, but 4% sugar may be too high if you bake the pizza on a pizza stone. You might find that the bottom of the crust turns brown before the rest of the pizza is done baking. Some members reported that they were able to bake PJ clones on their pizza stones but they had to watch the bake very closely.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for looking over the formula. Consider it tossed out.

I was thinking about this on my way home from work earlier and what you said about a gas oven providing a more moist bake compared to a electric. Maybe I should stick with those two formulas I layed out earlier and see what happens. Just for the sake of it.

I think I need to compensate somehow, though, for the lack of moisture provided by a gas oven and get around the hot, dry environment provided by an electric oven.

is there a formula that you would suggest, if you were in my shoes?

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Pete-zza

• Global Moderator
• Posts: 20501
• Location: Texas
• Always learning
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #427 on: December 05, 2010, 09:53:46 AM »
is there a formula that you would suggest, if you were in my shoes?

Mike,

The things in dough that tend to help retain the moisture are mainly sugar and oil. In the dough formulations you posted earlier, you have both, but not in excessive quantities. Even during cooling of the baked pizza, the sugar, which is a hygroscopic substance (it takes on water from its surroundings), will help keep the crust somewhat moist. That is a well known attribute that is commonly taken advantage of in some breads. I think I would just go with your earlier formulations at this point. What I would be anxious to see is how the 3% sugar works out. Again, you will have to watch the bake so that the sugar doesn't lead to excessive or premature bottom crust browning. You might keep a pizza screen on hand to lift the pizza off of the stone toward the end of the bake if you see that the crust is browning too fast. That is a technique that is often used by pizza operators with deck ovens. Sometimes sugar in the dough is actually a good thing because the browning can force someone to pull the pizza from the oven sooner than normal, before the pizza has a chance to dry out. Of course, you want the rest of the pizza to be properly baked.

Peter

#### scott123

• Registered User
• Posts: 6005
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #428 on: December 05, 2010, 10:33:17 AM »
Mike, what's Marcello's bake time? Matching that, imo, is critical to matching their results at home.

Are you using any sort of convection setting?

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #429 on: December 05, 2010, 01:26:17 PM »
Mike,

The things in dough that tend to help retain the moisture are mainly sugar and oil. In the dough formulations you posted earlier, you have both, but not in excessive quantities. Even during cooling of the baked pizza, the sugar, which is a hygroscopic substance (it takes on water from its surroundings), will help keep the crust somewhat moist. That is a well known attribute that is commonly taken advantage of in some breads. I think I would just go with your earlier formulations at this point. What I would be anxious to see is how the 3% sugar works out. Again, you will have to watch the bake so that the sugar doesn't lead to excessive or premature bottom crust browning. You might keep a pizza screen on hand to lift the pizza off of the stone toward the end of the bake if you see that the crust is browning too fast. That is a technique that is often used by pizza operators with deck ovens. Sometimes sugar in the dough is actually a good thing because the browning can force someone to pull the pizza from the oven sooner than normal, before the pizza has a chance to dry out. Of course, you want the rest of the pizza to be properly baked.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the heads-up on the process. I'll go with the two formulas I posted yesterday and see how they turn out. I'll definitely keep an eye on the pies during the bake. And if too much bottom browning occurs, I have a screen here at hand.

I'll definitely keep you posted. Thanks again for your help, it's always appreciated.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 01:29:38 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #430 on: December 05, 2010, 01:29:15 PM »
Mike, what's Marcello's bake time? Matching that, imo, is critical to matching their results at home.

Are you using any sort of convection setting?

To be honest, I don't really know how long their bake is for the pizzas. I never had the chance to observe and time them. But next time I'm there I'll ask which will probably on Tuesday. But my guess is maybe 12-15 mins at 550°F in a Rotoflex.

My oven is a standard electric with a lower heating element and a broiler element on top. No convection feature. I wish I had that, though.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #431 on: December 06, 2010, 04:20:39 PM »
Peter,

I used the second dough ball from Marcello's to do a little dissecting work on it.

The first thing I noticed were tiny little black spots on the somewhat dry surface. I wonder where they stem from? Yeast? Fermentation?

When I cut into the dough, I saw a well-developed gluten structure which could mean that the dough was mixed thoroughly, assuming this is a same-day dough.

The third thing that I noticed was larger surface bubbles popping up when I tightened the dough a bit. I only get those with a certain amount of yeast, perhaps around 0.3%. But I could be wrong on this one.

The smell was also more of a bread-like aroma rather then the water & flour smell I had on the first dough ball.

But I really like to know what those spots could mean. I've never seen anything like that on my doughs, even after 3-4 days of fermentation. Bromated flour, perhaps?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 04:33:01 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### norma427

• Posts: 19098
• Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #432 on: December 06, 2010, 05:49:43 PM »
Peter,

I used the second dough ball from Marcello's to do a little dissecting work on it.

The first thing I noticed were tiny little black spots on the somewhat dry surface. I wonder where they stem from? Yeast? Fermentation?

When I cut into the dough, I saw a well-developed gluten structure which could mean that the dough was mixed thoroughly, assuming this is a same-day dough.

The third thing that I noticed was larger surface bubbles popping up when I tightened the dough a bit. I only get those with a certain amount of yeast, perhaps around 0.3%. But I could be wrong on this one.

The smell was also more of a bread-like aroma rather then the water & flour smell I had on the first dough ball.

But I really like to know what those spots could mean. I've never seen anything like that on my doughs, even after 3-4 days of fermentation. Bromated flour, perhaps?

Mike,

I am not Peter, but here is one place Peter did post about spotting in dough at Reply 118 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42774.html#msg42774

I also had spotting in some of my doughs that went for longer fermentations. Just the other week I had some spotting in the milk kefir dough that was cold fermented for 11 days.  That dough was bulk fermented first, before being cold fermented.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #433 on: December 06, 2010, 06:01:58 PM »
Norma,

However, it's still unclear to me where exactly the spots come from. Peter did a 6 day vacuum-sealed fermentation. I don't think Marcello's does that sort of thing.

My other thought was that it could be a chemical reaction between the dough and the bench flour they used to dust the dough balls before they go on a tray for room fermentation. And the dough also didn't have the aroma that comes with let's say a 36 or 48 hour fermented dough.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### norma427

• Posts: 19098
• Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #434 on: December 06, 2010, 06:06:30 PM »
Norma,

However, it's still unclear to me where exactly the spots come from. Peter did a 6 day vacuum-sealed fermentation. I don't think Marcello's does that sort of thing.

My other thought was that it could be a chemical reaction between the dough and the bench flour they used to dust the dough balls before they go on a tray for room fermentation. And the dough also didn't have the aroma that comes with let's say a 36 or 48 hour fermented dough.

Mike,

I had also had the spots different times when I let the dough ferment for longer periods.  My doughs weren't vacuum sealed.  The dough still was good to use.  Just recently, I let a dough ferment for 11 days.  That dough had some spotting.

I don't know about the chemical reaction between dough and bench flour.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #435 on: December 06, 2010, 06:10:57 PM »
Norma,

What I was trying to say was that, assuming Marcello's uses a same-day dough, those spots can't really be coming from a longer fermentation period.

But maybe Marcello's sells left over dough as individual dough balls the next day. Maybe then those spots are possible.

Sorry for the confusion...
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Pete-zza

• Global Moderator
• Posts: 20501
• Location: Texas
• Always learning
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #436 on: December 06, 2010, 06:23:05 PM »
Mike,

You might check out Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. Whether it is dead yeast or oxidation of bran particles or some surface effect, it appears that oxidation is involved in some way. The post that Norma referenced was intended to see if oxidation was implicated. What I found interesting is that the spotting phenomenon in my experiments was limited to the top surface of the dough that was not in contact with the storage container. The center of the dough below the surface and the bottom surface of the dough was quite normal in terms of color. Also, the spotting was not a fatal effect. I still made some very good pizzas with the spotted doughs.

Peter

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #437 on: December 06, 2010, 08:53:33 PM »
Oxidation, hmmm.

Interesting. My bet is on the bran particles; it's probably the most plausible cause of the phenomenon.

I made two dough balls today, using the first formula with oil I posted here

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg119082.html#msg119082

I dissolved the salt and the sugar in 85°F water, added the flour, yeast and oil, mixed for two minutes until no raw flour was visible and then let it rest for 15 mins. 8 minutes of kneading followed and then I divided the dough into two individual dough balls at 549 gr. each.

That was at 1:00pm today. I plan on using them around 8:00pm tonight. However, the smell was very familiar...it is the same smell I got from Marcello's dough on Friday evening; just flour and water - no yeasty smell at all.

I'm anxious to see how the pizzas turn out. But the dough looks and feels promising.

The first two pics were taken about 2.5 hours after making them and the last one just now.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

#### Tscarborough

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 2877
• Location: Austin, TX
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #438 on: December 06, 2010, 09:03:31 PM »
Am I weird because I do not like my dough balls touching other ones?!

#### Essen1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 3261
• Location: SF Bay Area
##### Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #439 on: December 06, 2010, 09:06:06 PM »
Why not? All it takes to get them apart is a sharp putty knife or dough cutter.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

pizzapan