Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[Tscarborough]

I dunno, I do not re-ball them after I ease them out of their (individual) tupperware containers.  Like I said, I suspect I am just weird.

[widespreadpizza]

Yes the spotting effect,  some ol time pizza operator told me that was called salt and pepper.  It does seem to happen at the oddest of times.  This guy thought it was a good thing.  It is strange that as you work the dough into a skin it almost disappears with even a tiny bit of flour.  -marc

[Essen1]

I dunno, I do not re-ball them after I ease them out of their (individual) tupperware containers.  Like I said, I suspect I am just weird.

Neither do I.

They come out of the box, onto the counter and get shaped into skins. I used Tupperware containers before but it didn't make much sense to me to have the dough stored in individual containers. But if it works for you, even better.

[Essen1]

Yes the spotting effect,  some ol time pizza operator told me that was called salt and pepper.  It does seem to happen at the oddest of times.  This guy thought it was a good thing.  It is strange that as you work the dough into a skin it almost disappears with even a tiny bit of flour.  -marc

Marc,

Thanks for the insight!

It's still baffling to me but I guess it is what it is.

But if the guy thinks it's a good thing then it brings up the question of why? What do those spots indicate then? Proper mixing, fermentation or really just a case of oxidation?

[norma427]

Mike,

These are the posts where I really had dough balls with gray spots at Reply 242 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85549.html#msg85549 and Reply 248 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85966.html#msg85966

I really don’t know what the gray spots are from, but it seems to me that they might come from the bran in the flour.  I am now doing an experiment on a long fermented dough, that is now 10 days old.  It doesn’t have any gray spots as of today.  I will let you know, if or when the dough ball does develop gray spots.  Maybe the dough ball you showed a picture of in your other post, was left in the air too long. That is just one theory, for now.

Maybe you could do an experiment with one dough ball to see if it develops gray spots.

Norma

[Essen1]

Mike,

These are the posts where I really had dough balls with gray spots at Reply 242 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85549.html#msg85549 and Reply 248 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85966.html#msg85966

I really don’t know what the gray spots are from, but it seems to me that they might come from the bran in the flour.  I am now doing an experiment on a long fermented dough, that is now 10 days old.  It doesn’t have any gray spots as of today.  I will let you know, if or when the dough ball does develop gray spots.  Maybe the dough ball you showed a picture of in your other post, was left in the air too long. That is just one theory, for now.

Maybe you could do an experiment with one dough ball to see if it develops gray spots.

Norma

Norma,

Excellent links and info! Thanks so much.

I might shoot Lehmann a message to see what he thinks or if he's got an explanation for it.

I mean, those spots are not a big deal but I'd like to know what is producing those spots and why they show up on doughs that are 2 days old, 6 days old and a day old.

Some call it a salt & pepper effect and, I just learned this, a "chocolate chip" effect. It is an interesting phenomenon, to say the least. I'd like to know if the spotting, when it occurs, has any significant impact on the dough, what occurs within the dough in order for those black spots to show up and if it has any influence on fermentation.

Btw, those spots almost look like a bunch of fleas trapped under a very thin membrane... I have a cat, come to think of it. 

[norma427]

Mike,

I really don’t have a theory on why the gray, or dark spots appear, but the other week, when I made a dough and had left it bulk ferment first, then cold ferment for 11 days it did develop some dark spots as can be seen at Reply 150 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117937.html#msg117937 I used that dough ball before more dark specks could appear.  Now the dough ball I am experimenting with doesn’t have any dark specks after 10 days, but I didn’t let that dough ball bulk ferment and become exposed to air.  I directly put the dough ball in the refrigerator. 

You could shoot a question to Tom Lehmann.

Those spots are weird, but they seem to disappear, when the dough is opened.

Norma

[Essen1]

After giving the first formula I posted a couple of days ago a shot, I got to say that I'm not too happy about it.

Let's just say that my quest for a Marcello's crust clone is probably a more complex undertaking than I originally thought. The crust came out too crunchy and not pliable enough like the original. The rim was way too puffy and too large so I think I have to reduce the weight per dough ball. For now, I think staying in the 400 - 425gr. range for a 14" pie is more realistic than the 550gr. dough ball from last night.

Regarding the rim, it was also a tad too hard and didn't want to fold voluntarily, only after using a bit of force. It almost shattered on top of that. My plan is to raise the hydration to 64%, lower the sugar amount to 1% and decrease the salt amount to 1.5% instead of 2%. The rest will stay the same for now.

Jesus, it must be possible to get a crust like Marcello's done at home without too much trouble. I remember what Luc said once about their crust..."It's the water".

I don't know exactly what she meant by it...whether she meant the amount, the temp or if it is filtered or non-filtered. The latter, however, I think is pretty unlikely.

I'm open to any and all suggestions and ideas, guys 

And since I'm at work, I will post pics from last night's pizzas when I get home.

[Jose L. Piedra]

The Marcello's pie doesn't look like it was baked at 550. Your pie does. The Marcello's pie looks like it was baked at 500.

JLP

[Essen1]

The Marcello's pie doesn't look like it was baked at 550. Your pie does. The Marcello's pie looks like it was baked at 500.

JLP

Jose,

Two people of Marcello's, the General Manager Luc who makes the dough and the owner's girlfriend both have told me they bake at 550°F. That's the only info I have that I can go by so far.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Maybe you already mentioned it, but do you know the bake time typically used at Marcello's?

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

Maybe you already mentioned it, but do you know the bake time typically used at Marcello's?

Peter

Peter,

Scott123 asked me the same thing a couple of days ago, I think.

I really don't know how long they bake their pies or if the pies made for slices and are on display in the shop are a bit underbaked.

But I found this:

The operator's story led Daisy to investigate a Roto-Flex oven, which features multiple, circular stone decks spaced vertically on a rotating center axle. It produced the hearth-baked crust characteristics he desired and cooked his pizzas with the speed and ease typically credited to conveyor ovens.

Now, how fast is a conveyor oven? That might give us a clue.

I also saw a video on YouTube with Tony Gemignani where he demonstrates that type of oven. However, all he says is that the pizzas cook "really, really fast" but unfortunately doesn't give a time frame.

[Essen1]

Okay, some pics from last night's bake.

The second set of pics shows the crust that was too dry and somewhat shattered when I was trying to fold it but unfortunately I don't have a pic of that...

Here's also a little video I took of the rim after it expanded to it's almost full size, addressed to Peter. Go figure...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ6Uh8gob7U" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ6Uh8gob7U</a>

[Essen1]

Second set...

[Tscarborough]

Looks great to me.  I find that particular type of crust profile happens with my bread when I do not inject enough water into the oven.  Could it be something similar?

[Essen1]

Looks great to me.  I find that particular type of crust profile happens with my bread when I do not inject enough water into the oven.  Could it be something similar?

The first pie was okay, the second not so much.

I was thinking about adding some steam to the bake a few days ago but then again, it's odd and shouldn't be done.

It all has to come from the crust itself, internally and through the way it's assembled and the values that are selected. A bunch of factors come into play, too, such as fermentation time, cold or room, salt levels, oil levels, etc. You get my drift.

And the oven is a big, big factor and makes a huge difference. It can make or break a good dough. Last but definitely not least, the bake times...they're crucial. Especially when you're dealing with an extremely hot and dry environment such as my little GE oven at home.

It's back to the drawing board, I guess. At least for now. 

[Jose L. Piedra]

I think a *very* well-mixed dough of 62% hydration, 4-5% oil, 2% salt, .25% yeast, and no sugar, baked on a stone on the lower rack@500 for about 9 minutes, will (judging from the pics) provide a reasonable clone of the Marcello's, at least in appearance.

JLP

[Essen1]

I think a *very* well-mixed dough of 62% hydration, 4-5% oil, 2% salt, .25% yeast, and no sugar, baked on a stone on the lower rack@500 for about 9 minutes, will (judging from the pics) provide a reasonable clone of the Marcello's, at least in appearance.

JLP

Jose,

I appreciate the suggestion.

Your post reeks of confidence that your formula will/might work. What do you suggest as a mixing/kneading time? 8 to 10 mins or maybe less?

Can you elaborate?

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I tried to find some photos of the Marcello's pizzas to get a better idea as to their appearance. There weren't many, but the ones shown at http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/3284941429_09a497cff5.jpg, http://www.threetopsf.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/marcellos-pizza.jpg and http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/5A/F2/9B/i5AF29B26-6687-4A30-B250-78DA600A0FCC.jpg appear to be representative. All three of these photos are slice photos but the pizzas shown do not appear to have had a long bake. On this point, as I was researching the matter, I found comments from Marcello's customers that the Marcello pizzas sometimes had a doughy, or somewhat underbaked, quality. If the dough balls you purchased were for 18" pizzas, I can see how a short bake at the oven temperature that Marcello's uses, 550 degrees F, might produce pizzas like those shown in the photos.

With respect to your question concerning the relative bake times of conveyor ovens versus a Roto-Flex oven, there are conveyor ovens, like the Middleby Marshal WOW! oven, that can bake a pizza in about 5 minutes. Papa John's uses that oven in some of its stores. However, most conveyor ovens appear to have a bake time of around 7 minutes. Where the Roto-Flex oven is most often compared with conveyor ovens is the throughput of the oven. The basic Roto-Flex oven has several decks that rotate four times a minute. With the multiple decks, the proponents of the oven claim that they can get an output that rivals conveyor ovens, yet produce a classic deck oven bake. If I were to try to replicate a Marcello's pizza, I would start by using the same thickness factor as Marcello's uses and I would use a relatively short bake time at around 550 degrees F. I would judge the bake time on appearance of the pizza as it bakes. You don't want the crust to turn too dark and too crispy but you also want the toppings to be properly baked, hopefully before the pizza crust starts to brown up. Since you have had Marcello's pizzas many times, you may already know what the actual crust color is. 

As I was researching the Marcello's pizza, I found comments of reviewers that characterized the Marcello's pizzas as New York style. If the thickness factor I calculated is correct, I would not characterize the Marcello's pizza as a New York style. They may have the outward appearance of a NY style, but the crust is too thick (if we are right on the thickness factor) to be a true NY style. I did not see anything on the Marcello's menu at http://www.marcellospizzasf.com/menu.html that makes any claim to a NY style but they perhaps don't diabuse anyone of the notion either.

As a side note, I would caution those who decide to research Marcello's pizzas that there are many places that use the name Marcello's for their establishments. I believe the photos I found are for the Marcello's on Castro St (http://www.marcellospizzasf.com/).

Peter

[Jose L. Piedra]

Jose,

I appreciate the suggestion.

Your post reeks of confidence that your formula will/might work. What do you suggest as a mixing/kneading time? 8 to 10 mins or maybe less?

Can you elaborate?

I mentioned it because, in the past few weeks, I've used that formula and some variants to make a few round pies (in a different, non-NY style) that seemed to resemble the Marcello's inasmuch as they had charred undercarriages but a lighter level of browning on the cornicone. On the other hand, I've never seen one of his pies up close and in person; would you say that the attached pic (of one of mine) comes close to the mark as far as the coloration is concerned?

JLP